Front Burner - Karen Wang, race and Canadian politics

Episode Date: January 21, 2019

"If you just say 'vote for me because I'm Chinese-Canadian', it didn't work. It hasn't worked, and it won't work." Former NDP MP Olivia Chow is a seasoned politician who has strong connections to the Chinese-Canadian community. She reflects on ex-Liberal candidate Karen Wang's race-based comments against NDP leader Jagmeet Singh, and the role of race in Canadian politics.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. So there's a by-election in B.C. next month,

where NDP leader Jagmeet Singh hopes to get a seat. But in the last several days, another story has really overshadowed Singh's candidacy. It's about the former Liberal candidate Karen Wang. She's been accused of racism, resigned, retracted her resignation, contemplated running as an independent. And I feel like I am abused. And this is not me at all. I am not a racist. But then on Sunday, Karen Wang said she's just going to drop out of the race altogether. And it's all because of the fact that Wang told a Chinese-speaking audience that she's Chinese

and that her opponent is, quote, of Indian descent. This story has sparked a lot of debate and discussion about the role of race in Canadian politics. What amuses me, I guess, is the Liberals are shocked, shocked to discover there's ethnic politics going on. The premise that people vote for their own has been proven wrong in a variety of writings. We hold our politicians to a high standard to ensure that they don't use or inflame ethnic differences. Today, I'm talking to Olivia Chow. She is a former Canadian politician who has served as a Toronto City Councillor and a federal member of parliament for the New Democratic Party.

She was also born in Hong Kong and has strong ties to the Canadian Chinese community. If we could focus on what brings us together rather than what divides us, we would have a much better democracy. That's today on FrontBurner. So I want to start today with the comments made by Karen Wang. She says it was her team, but comments made on WeChat, the popular Chinese language social media app. She told voters that she is the only Chinese

candidate in the riding and could make history as such, while Jagmeet Singh is a candidate of Indian descent. That's a statement. It's a fact. It's not a racial statement at all. It's nothing related to this. For you, did this WeChat comment cross a line? Oh, absolutely. How come? It's very divisive. It's just, vote for me, not because I stand for whatever issues, whatever my core values, what I want to do together with the voters. Just vote for me because I'm Chinese. with the voters, just vote for me because I'm Chinese.

It's, as I said, divisive. And really, it has no place in politics. Being a former politician yourself, you have experienced reaching out to different cultural communities. So how do you do that? Like, where does that line cross for you? Canadians have, all have, no matter where we're from, what descent and what our ethnic origin, all have similar concerns. Healthcare, housing, the environment.

And in terms of how we outreach to different communities really is what are their core concerns. Different communities, depends on how long they've been in Canada, would have different concerns. And one of the key ways is to connect with them based on what are their priority issues. Do you think it's possible that for many communities, a concern that they might have is to see someone that looks like them represented in politics? I think there's a desire to be understood, that desire for a government that represents you, that you look at the government and say, Ah, that's sort of like who I am. So I think as a female, I would like to see at least equal voice. Why? It's not just because

the person is female, but some of the issues that are of particular concern to a certain race or gender or class can be better understood by the people from the communities. And if the person can even speak the language even better, then they can communicate better. communicate better. What I'm trying to understand here is what is it about these comments that Karen Wang made or her team made on WeChat that is really bothering you? You know, what would be acceptable in terms of reaching out to specific ethnic groups? Hey, you know, there's different levels. Being able to say, hello, how are you in that language, in that their mother tongue maybe.

Yeah, that's respect. And going to their festivals and understanding what the festivals is all about. It's, again, about respect. You add to it really concern, not just concern, actually doing something about issues that are pretty important to them. With Karen Wang, at first I felt sad when I saw the WeChat comment.

Why did you feel sad? I thought, oh, come on, you know. It was a sense of pity. She doesn't get it? What is it, right? So I thought, oh, I didn't find it acceptable. I'm glad she resigned quite quickly so it didn't drag. So that was okay.

And then I got really infuriated when she starts saying, it's the Chinese culture. You know, that's the tradition, all the cultures among Chinese community. And when we talk about candidates, politics, and we normally just, you know, tell people, you know, who he is. And so they want to identify people with a specific ethnic, like, you know, background. So that's what the Chinese language normally do. So she's saying this is common practice in the Chinese community. What do you think about that argument?

Total load of crap. Why? Completely. I mean, you know, it's total BS. I don't know how more severe that I can put it. It's just like gutless, right? It's infuriating listening to her blaming culture, heritage. That's not something that you see in the Chinese community? No, absolutely not.

You know, if you're racist, they're racist from every community. It doesn't matter, you know, what race you're from. To say that, oh, it's the heritage, it's the language, it's the culture, the tradition. No, no. You made a mistake, own up to it, admit it, you know, have the guts to do that, apologize, move on. Do you see how this could have potentially been a cultural misunderstanding? No, absolutely not. Where did she see that?

Name it, okay? Let's be factual, right? You can't just make a statement and say, oh, well, you know, we saw it in the Chinese papers. So one example I've heard in the last couple of days, our producer Elaine Chao was talking to her father, and her father brought up the example that when Sandra Oh won a Golden Globe recently. In Chinese media she was referred to as having Korean descent. Right fine. How is that okay? Well because because I think the paper raised it to say, wow, an Asian female winning a Golden Globe.

That's not often the case. To say that, oh, okay, Krista Freeland, Ukrainian background. She gets it, what's happening between Ukraine and Russia. Putin is terrified of Russians looking across the border to Ukraine and saying, hey, if the Ukrainians can overthrow their dictator, why can't we? There's a point in raising that person's background. Now, her point— By referring to Jagmeet Singh of Indian descent, what do you think her point was? Well, her point is it's pure division. I am better because I'm Chinese.

The reason why she brought up race is not because to give something context. If she said, you know, as a Chinese-Canadian, I understand the hardship to be separated from your family, from your father and mother, because I know many friends that have been trying to sponsor their parents for so long. It takes so long to sponsor. I get it. That's fine. Okay. But to be divisive and say, vote for me because this is because of my race. for so long, and it takes so long to sponsor. I get it. That's fine. Okay? But to be divisive and say,

vote for me because this is because of my race, and the other guy, oh, he's Indian. Okay, don't vote for him. No, that's not acceptable. The liberals, they were very quick to publicly denounce these WeChat comments. They called them not aligned with the values of the Liberal Party. They accepted Karen Wang's resignation. They dismissed a request for her to be reinstated.

The statement made by our former candidate in Burnaby South was unacceptable and was not representative of the kinds of politics that I put forward, certainly the kinds of politics that our team focuses on. Can I ask you, I think I know where this is probably going, but do you think that losing, that it was fair that she lost her opportunity to run? Yes. Okay. I'm glad it's done.

What about the argument? And one argument that I've heard is that what she did here is say out loud what political parties, all political parties, not just the liberals, but the NDP and the conservatives have been doing for years, which is playing race-based politics. for years, which is playing race-based politics. So Burnaby South, the writing that Ms. Wang was writing in is 42% ethnic Chinese. Is it possible that she just said out loud what people would just rather not say out loud? That this is the reason that she was put in this position in part to appeal to this voting bloc of people. I did read all the columnists that said that. I know who they are. Andrew Coyne, for example, argues this in the National Post. Absolutely.

Certainly what this candidate said was objectionable, but what's really objectionable is the actual practice that she was describing, which everybody in politics does, everybody in politics knows is what goes on, that if you have a riding with a heavy concentration of whichever ethnic group it may happen to be, you pick a candidate, if you possibly can, who's from that group, and that's a big part of the selling point. And indeed, there's people who would go beyond that and say, not only is that practical politics, but it's admirable in policy terms,

that people can only really be represented by people from their own racial or ethnic group. So for people to then turn around and pile on her, her main crime was saying out loud what you're not supposed to say out loud. You're supposed to just do it and not say it. I think what his argument is, is that, oh, you know, yeah, all parties try to do that. Absolutely. Why shouldn't we?

We need to connect with the people that we're supposed to represent. And that's totally fine. Yeah. Oh, okay. You need to sign up enough members. You sign up who you know in order to win a nomination. Okay.

And you try to go to the community, in a certain community, to say, hey, I understand why it is important, let's use the Chinese-Canadian community, why it was important that there was the Chinese head tax redress to go to the community and say, we get you, we're going to work hard and sign up because we need to win the nomination so that we could get finally an apology in the House of Commons for that racist act. The government of Canada recognizes the stigma and exclusion experienced by the Chinese as a result. The Chinese attacks and exclusion act.

Different thing for you because this is focusing on a specific issue is what you're trying to say. That's right. So Andrew being maybe a bit cynical as a columnist basically said, you know, yeah, you know, yeah. But he didn't really go into the details of, wait a second. You know, if you just say vote for me because I am Chinese Canadian, it didn't work. It hasn't worked. It won't work because there's enough academic research to say that, you know. That people can't fit into neat tiny boxes? Absolutely not.

But I do, I just want to take the other side of this argument for a little bit and try to unpack it step by step. So it's largely accepted that it's important to have politicians look like the community that they represent. Step one, correct. Okay. Because I just want to get a sense of where we've kind of lost, what went off the rails here. Yeah. And step two, that there are not enough racialized communities and female, for example, people of different classes in the House of Commons. So it's important. And it's important to have people in tune with cultures and lives and specific needs of a community, right? Absolutely. So why is it a firing offense then, when somebody states, as Wang did, that as a Chinese Canadian, she can do for

her community, what her opponent, a South Asian Canadian, cannot do for her community. She didn't say that. To make a sweeping statement without actually saying why my ideas, my point of view is better. That's not acceptable. So I think this takes me back to my question. Articulating it to these groups of people, you know, would it have been different for you if she said, I'm Chinese, vote for me, or I'm Chinese-Canadian, vote for me, my opponent is Indian, but I'm here to represent everyone, and here is a basket of policies that I have to address your issues and the issues of many people in this riding. Would that have been more acceptable for you? But she needs to say why the other guy

raising his race, what's the relevance of it? Okay, why raise it? Is it possible that it was just clumsy? No. Well, I mean, she has said that it's common practice. Not likely. I mean, as I said, it was a load of crap. I want to play you another clip, actually. There's been a lot of discussion about why she raised Jagmeet Singh's race, and Robert Perungao helped run the Ottawa Chinese Community Services Centre,

and he's Chinese-Canadian himself, and he says that it might actually speak to some long-running cultural tensions. First-generation Chinese-Canadians and new Canadians, a little bit of tension between those two cultural groups. Chinese Canadians and new Canadians, a little bit of tension between those two cultural groups. Looking at, like, my grandparents' generation and understanding that both China and India share a border, and oftentimes there is, you know, even recently, up to 2009, I believe it was, military buildup along that border, violence sometimes erupts. Nothing so big, but enough that it continues to push, for both governments, push negative storyline about each of those cultural groups around that land and also about how they, quote unquote, are. Do you think there might be truth to that, that there are cultural tensions that go way back held by older generations? Yes, there had been in any, because of historical reasons, in the borders, wars and etc.

China and India have agreed to pull back troops from both sides of their disputed border. They've been locked in a standoff for more than two months in the area of Doklam. There are lots of baggages, negative baggages that are brought to this Canada and we call it out, use it as a learning moment and say, wait a second, that's not acceptable. Why are you raising that person's race? Do you think that we don't talk about that enough? This kind of baggage? I think we do. We do more of it. And I would love to see more of that discussion in the media that specifically target different communities. I want to play another clip for you that felt quite heartfelt to me. She was talking about why she wants to be a representative, why she wants to be a politician. Twenty years ago, I came to Canada with my husband under the highly trained manpower program from China with nothing.

And when we came and we borrowed money to buy air tickets to fly to Canada, this is how we started here. We're both grown up in the village. And when we came, we had zero and actually we were in debt. That time we had no money, but we had a dream. What's your reaction to that? That's the story of Canada. Secessions of refugees and immigrants arriving to this shore to help build Canada. That's the beautiful Canadian dream, and that's very precious. beautiful Canadian dream.

And that's very precious. All the more reason we do not squander that and then divide each other to say, oh, you're that descent. I'm here. You're that race. I'm not that race.

Like, oh, no, no. Let's not do that. Are you saying that because she has this story which represents Canada, it was in a way almost worse that she... No, but so what? I see no relevance. You just don't think the two connect? No, no. It's wonderful that she has this story. Sure. But also she should never have said what she said.

Yeah. I see no connection whatsoever. That doesn't give her a license to discriminate. whatsoever. That doesn't give her a license to discriminate. I want to ask you, you spoke about the importance of racialized candidates and indigenous people in politics. And so how would you like to see this play out in a more positive way, or a less cynical way, is I think what we're talking about today? Of course, we need more communities being represented in the House of Commons. You know, it's equal voice. And one way for that to do is I'm putting our new party to adopt the affirmative action policy that the New Democrats have that we at any of the ridings that in terms of nomination, make sure that the Riding Association search out candidates that can best represent and reflect the people in their riding. And that would go a long way. What I'm hearing from you today, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that when those people communicate to the people in the writings, you would like to hear language that is focused on policies that affect certain groups of people, but policies, and also non-divisive language,

or language that you... non-divisive language or language that you, non-divisive language. I think to seek common ground, to seek what unites us, and to speak about the dreams that we all have to make Canada a better country. And I think if we could focus on that, what brings us together rather than what divides us, we would have a much better democracy. And the upcoming election in October, hopefully, will not be nasty. Hopefully. It could be uplifting. It could be inspirational. Let's not just think that it would be negative.

Why not be positive? It's January, right? We've got a whole nine months to go. And let's leave on that very positive note. Olivia Chow, thank you so much for being here for this nuanced and complicated conversation. We're really appreciative. Thank you. Thank you. So the federal liberals have moved pretty quickly here.

They've already announced a new candidate for Burnaby South. Richard Teeley is a familiar name for people who live there. He's represented the provincial riding of Burnaby for 16 years as a member of BC's Legislative Assembly. In a statement he said, and I quote, I'm proud to call Burnaby my home and this by-election is about ensuring Burnaby South has a strong voice in Parliament to help make life better for families in this community. community. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog.

She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.