Front Burner - 'Leaving them behind is a betrayal'

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

As civilians try to flee a Taliban-held Afghanistan, Canadian veteran Ryerson Maybee reflects on our country’s historic role there, and what our government’s responsibilities should be to the Afghans who risked their lives to help Canadians during the war.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I'm Alameen Abdelmahmoud, in for Jamie Poisson. There's a video you may have seen online in the past couple of days of Afghans rushing the tarmac at the Kabul airport,

where a massive US Air Force plane is taxiing down the runway. Hundreds of people are running beside or in front of the plane. They seem to be trying to prevent it from taking off without them. Some people actually jump onto the side of the aircraft. At least seven people ended up dying in the chaos. How desperate, how petrified does an individual have to be to risk everything and just try to physically crush yourself onto the outside of an airplane. Those images of people holding...

As the U.S. is withdrawing the last of its troops from Afghanistan, the Taliban has managed to retake most of the country in a matter of weeks. On Sunday, they easily breached Kabul and President Ashraf Ghani fled the country. For many watching, the 20-year war appears to be ending as it started, with the Taliban in control. Canadian Special Forces were part of the U.S.-led coalition that first invaded Afghanistan in 2001. Over the next 13 years, up until Canada fully withdrew in 2014,

40,000 Canadian soldiers would go to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and Al-Qaeda forces and try to help reconstruct the country. 165 Canadians died in the war. So did more than 100,000 Afghans, including some who were helping the Canadian forces. Now, many Canadians who served in Afghanistan are wondering whether any of it was worth it. Today, I'll speak to retired Captain Ryerson Mabee about the chaos we're seeing unfold in Afghanistan and what he thinks this country's responsibilities should be to the Afghans who risked their lives to help Canadians. Hi, Ryerson. Hello.

So in 2010, you served for eight months in Afghanistan. I want to start there. What were you doing there? I was part of the operational mentor and liaison team, or as we called it, the omelette. as we called it, the omelette. And at the time, I had the rank of warrant officer, which is a senior non-commissioned member of the Canadian Armed Forces. And my job was to mentor the first sergeant of an Afghan National Army Rifle Company, what we would call a company sergeant major here in Canada. And when you were there, you worked closely with many Afghans. Tell us about the relationship that you developed with them. So the relationship that I developed with the ANA guys that I worked with was facilitated,

of course, by our interpreters. And, you know, I think when people hear interpreter, it's just the vision they may have in their mind is someone who just translates language, turns my English into Pashtun or Dari. But it's a lot more than that. They're really cultural translators. They're helping us make sure that we don't offend anyone by being rude. They're cuing us in on subtle social clues, body language, signs, symbols, that kind of stuff that, that would sail right past us. Uh, but give us important context to the conversations that we were having in the operations that we were conducting. And I, I had a great time working with the, uh, the Afghan first sergeants.

And in fact, one of them, uh, saved my life. Um, we were on on we were on an operation we uh we had two vehicles and the first call sign which had my boss a captain in it drove back out over this bridge and before my call sign could cross the bridge uh our afghan sergeant major a guy named abdul nasir um waved us down and and gave us the hand signal for a halt, so we halted and then I could see him dig something out of the ground and cut a lamp cord with his knife. We later discovered that there was an IED that was literally encased in concrete at the verge of the road on the opposite side of the bridge that I was on. And it was large enough to,

it would have severely damaged one of our vehicles if not destroyed it. And it would certainly have caused casualties had it been observed and fired through that lamp cord. And I know that Sergeant Major Nassir didn't hesitate to cut that lamp cord, even though that was a risky proposition because he, of course, could have inadvertently

detonated the device and hurt himself. Wow. So we are talking intimate relationships in terms of navigating the cultural differences, but also intimate in other ways like saving your life. So I want to bring us to now, because now in a matter of weeks, the Taliban has managed to retake control of most of the country, including the area that you were stationed in in Kandahar. What has it been like for you to watch them advance? The first word that comes to mind is surreal. I was stationed in Dan District Center, for example, for a good chunk of the tour. And to hear that the Taliban were operating out of Dan District Centre, the very camp that I'd been in, was pretty bizarre.

And of course, it's sad to see all the gains that we made being lost as the Taliban has swept over the whole country. And I'm afraid. I'm afraid for the Afghans that we've left behind. I think people maybe remember the story in April, may have passed a lot of people by, but may remember US President Joe Biden announcing that the US is going to withdraw from Afghanistan. US troops, as well as forces deployed by our NATO allies and operational partners will be out of Afghanistan before we mark the 20th anniversary of that heinous attack on September 11th.

Between then and now, we are talking about a 20-year effort that fell apart. How do you think things fell apart so quickly? That fell apart. How do you think things fell apart so quickly? I think the strength of the Afghan government now under President Ghani was probably overestimated. That seems fairly clear. And from what I've read and seen over the past few days, what I can glean is that the logistical support for Afghan National Army units, which was never strong when I was there, seems to have evaporated completely. So, you know, I've seen some people say like, oh, the ANA are full of cowards and they just fold it up shop quite quickly. If you've got no food, no ammo, it's pretty hard to conduct operations. So I imagine that's part of why it was as easy for the Taliban to rule as quickly as they did through the country

is because the infrastructure that should have been supporting the larger Afghan National Army was actually just vapor. the larger Afghan National Army was actually just vapor. So now you're watching these images of a camp where you were once, places that you've been. And we're talking about more than 100,000 Afghans have died in the war, including tens of thousands of civilians. 165 Canadians died in Afghanistan. Dozens more died by suicide when they came home.

When you're looking back at all of this now, does any of it feel worth it? Was there a point? Yes, I think there was. And I can only speak for myself, but I know that this is the view that I've pushed out to a lot of my friends who are all who are fellow afghan vets and i reconciled this a long time ago when i was in bosnia actually all you can hope for as a soldier when you get there is that what you're doing at that time

makes a tangible positive difference while you're there so i know that when me and my guys were patrolling, uh, Kandahar province, uh, it was safe, uh, at least where we were, it was safe and it was safe primarily because we were there patrolling, doing our business. Um, it's unfortunate that that wasn't sustainable in the long run. And it was unfortunate that that, that, you know, didn't become the norm, um you know for me that was worth it i think we provided opportunity for a number of afghans that they might not have had if uh if we weren't there um it's just like i said it's just unfortunate that that didn't become the sort of the the the enduring legacy you mentioned that you've been speaking to other veterans. Our team also spoke to another vet, Tim Laidler. He's now the executive director of the Institute for Veterans Education and

Transition at the University of British Columbia. Why would any local population support a Western military after this? So you guys are just going to come here, throw a bunch of money around, cause a bunch of chaos and then leave. And if we help you, we're going to have our names on a hit list and you're are just going to come here, throw a bunch of money around, cause a bunch of chaos, and then leave. And if we help you, we're going to have our names on a hit list, and you're not even going to evacuate us. You're going to abandon us and our families and leave us to fend for ourselves. So absolutely, why on earth would anyone trust us at this point? In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem.

Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couops. So now let's talk about the worries of the moment.

Because, of course, there's the pain that you and other veterans are feeling watching these events unfold. But what are your fears now for the Afghans that you work with? Well, they're actively being hunted. I mean, we know that from first-hand accounts from our Afghan allies who are still there. They were there in Afghanistan just about any time Canadian troops went anywhere. Sometimes interpreters wore slightly different uniforms. Sometimes they wore Canada's. They say they're already getting threats

from the Taliban and have to live on the run. Because if I stay in a place for like one month, two months, three months, the Taliban are going to find me and they kill me. You know, when the Taliban took Kandahar city, they were literally going door to door looking for people who had worked with international forces. And when they found them, they were killing them and their families. So there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of apprehension. And frankly, there's a lot of anger on the part of myself. And having spoken to a handful of other guys who deployed there, the same goes for them.

Tell me a little bit more about that anger. What makes this such a personal story for you? Well, you know, as I said, the president made this announcement in April. That's four months. Four months with which our government could have made a plan to extract the people that worked for us

who are most at risk and get them home, get them here where they'll be safe and where they can raise their families and not have to worry about getting merged, you know, going for groceries. You know, I was in the army for a lengthy period of time. Four months is a total gift when it comes to a planning cycle most of us have experienced planning complex operations with a lot less time so and with a lot fewer resources than the government has at hand so you know what happened there and the government hasn't communicated how they came up with their plan when they announced their plan with you know the initial announcement included a three-day application period.

And then when all of us in the veteran community called them out on that, because that's completely ridiculous, the spin was, oh, we wanted to communicate the urgency of the moment. I don't know if you saw the footage today from the airport in Kabul. Those people understand the urgency of the situation they don't need a three-day waiting period from a western government to communicate the urgency of the of the situation their plan includes it's the same immigration process that my american wife had to go through in a place that has no internet access to speak of with documents that are all in English with very little consular support for those folks oh and

let's not forget they're actively being hunted by a very aggressive very well-equipped militia very well-equipped militia. So that's a terrible plan. Expand our program, include our family members who are in danger of Taliban reprisal. As violence escalates in Afghanistan, the Canadian government says it's working on getting former interpreters on the ground and their families to safety. Interpreters there say the application process is near impossible

with unrealistic deadlines and demands. And then when we all saw this, this plan, if you call it that, most of the veteran community did what vets do, which is we tried to figure out a way that we could help. I think a lot of us, I certainly was anticipating that we would make connections with the Afghans that we knew and then pass that information on to the government so that they could get them out of there. But there has been very little to no communication between IRCC and the veteran community that is in direct contact with many Afghans. So, you know, I spoke to my member of parliament the other day. She gave me her phone number and said, text me if you have people who

are stuck and who are in the process. I've done that. I haven't heard back. And that seems to be the norm for most of us in the veteran community who've reached out to members of the government. And it makes me wonder, either the Trudeau government is hopelessly naive about the situation in Afghanistan, is terribly incompetent, or they're very, very cynical. And the fact that the PM dissolved the parliament yesterday kind of makes me think it might be the third one.

And that makes me physically ill just even contemplating it. I want to talk about that phrase that you used, this plan such as it is. And I want to talk a little bit more about that because when you see the government's plan, or at least whatever they've been rolling out, how much of a priority do you get a sense that the Afghani people who worked for Canada and with Canadians are to this government? They're clearly not. And I want to make it clear that the members of the Canadian Armed Forces that have been working very diligently and very well to extract Afghans from a very difficult situation are doing the same job they've always done, which is an excellent one. And I'm sure that extends to some of the staff for IRCC, etc. But the leadership has clearly

not imparted, has not removed enough of the institutional barriers, or they haven't provided enough resources, or both. I'm not sure what's happened, and the government's not really talking about it. Now, a few weeks ago, Immigration Minister Marco Mendocino pledged to resettle Afghan interpreters, embassy staff and their families. And he said, quote, we appreciate that there is a need to act quickly and decisively, but that we must also do so safely given the very dynamic and deteriorating situation. As the Taliban continues to take over more of Afghanistan, many more Afghans lives are now under increasing threat. And many have already fled. Those refugees face

an uncertain and volatile future in neighboring countries, and Canada is here to help them as well. When you heard that, what did you think of it? I understand the need for safety and security. I am confident that there are lots of members of the armed forces that would volunteer to climb on board one of our CC-177s, fly to Kabul and secure a portion of the airport long enough for us to get our Afghans out, fly them somewhere else and then sort out the paperwork. The idea that we're asking people to turn up with passports, COVID tests, exit visas, all that is nonsense. As a group of interpreters prepared to board a flight to Canada, about 20 families were denied an exit visa because their passports had expired. Afghan officials are now also

demanding a negative COVID test just to enter Kabul airport. The new requirements could force interpreters to come up with hundreds or even thousands of dollars that many don't have. Like that's a clear misunderstanding of the situation, the urgency of it. This is not an immigration procedure. This isn't a military extraction. When we landed helicopters in landing zones in Kandahar province and the troops ran out to board the helicopter, the crew chief didn't ask us all what our names were. They just said, get on board. You're wearing the right uniform. Get on. No one understands security classifications

better than the veteran community. So tell us what it is that we can do to get our Afghans out. Talk to us. That's the message I have for the government right now. Part of what we heard from the government is also that Canada is committed to settling 20,000 Afghan refugees. Does that put you more at ease at all? Look, 20,000 is a good starter number, but Syria has half the population of Afghanistan,

and I think we started with 25,000 Syrian refugees. Why 20,000? It's not like Canada doesn't have room. It's a big country. And we could use lots more people here. Now, earlier, we talked about this image of Afghans so desperate to get out of the country, that they were literally grabbing onto an airplane as he was going down the tarmac. There's been videos of people rushing to the airport. I think Canadians have seen those images. So as Canadians watch those images, as they watch the Taliban continue to take control of Afghanistan, what kind of conversations do you hope they'll be having with each other? I think that I hope that those images are driving a conversation of some of those people worked for us. Some of those people, you know, made sure that my son, daughter, neighbor came home alive from a dangerous tour in a dangerous country.

And they're so desperate to get out, they're literally hanging off of aircraft. And some of them are not able to hang on. So, you know, what is our government doing to ensure their safe exit from that country? I know for me, part of the reason why this is hitting me so viscerally is the fact that I'm not really thinking of the interpreters that worked for us as other. To me, they're the same as other Canadian soldiers in many respects. So leaving them behind is a betrayal of Afghan veterans,

and it's shameful. Ryerson, thank you so much for your time. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me. A quick update before we let you go today. On Monday, Liberal leader Justin Trudeau fielded questions about the Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan. JUSTIN TRUDEAU, Liberal Leader, We are working very closely with the U.S., the U.K., and other allies to establish ways in which we are going to be able to get more and more

people out of Afghanistan in the coming weeks. But we have to recognize the situation is extremely fluid right now and exceedingly dangerous. We called it an extraordinarily dire situation and that Canada is committed to resettling thousands of Afghans in the coming weeks. Trudeau says that at least 807 Afghans have been evacuated and 500 have arrived in Canada. But evacuation efforts will really depend on the ability of U.S. and Canadian troops to secure the airport in Kabul. Conservative leader Aaron O'Toole said that Trudeau's government, quote, squandered time this spring on the issue, and that Canada needs to work with allies to provide as much aid to the country as possible.

Mr. Trudeau knew for six months that the U.S. were going to withdraw and left some of the interpreters and contractors that were still there. That's unacceptable. Meanwhile, NDP leader Jagmeet Singh asserted that Canada has a responsibility to do everything possible to help Afghans at this time. To the people in Afghanistan or the folks that are here, Canadians that have got ties to Afghanistan, my heart breaks for the situation that you're going through right now

and seeing those horrible images. And we reached out to Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada as well as Global Affairs Canada for a response to Ryerson's comments, but we didn't hear back by the end of the day. That's all for today. I'm Alameen Abdul-Mahmood. Thank you for listening to FrontBurner. Talk to you tomorrow.