Front Burner - Lessons from Ireland’s abortion battle

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

If the U.S. Supreme Court strikes down Roe v. Wade, 13 states have already passed what are known as "trigger" bans which automatically ban abortion. While it is still unclear if the leaked draft opinion represents the court's final word on the matter, as many as half of U.S. states are expected to bring in restrictions in the future should it be struck down. Meanwhile, some predominantly Catholic countries have recently made moves once thought impossible: legalizing or expanding abortion access. Today on Front Burner, a look at the long road to legal abortion in Ireland and the tragic impacts bans have had on generations of women. Caelainn Hogan is a freelance journalist based in Ireland and the author of Republic of Shame: Stories from Ireland's Institutions for 'Fallen Women'.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's been almost a week since the leak of a draft opinion from the U.S. Supreme Court that would overturn Roe v. Wade. And if the landmark decision from 1973 is overturned, 13 states already have trigger laws in place to immediately restrict abortion. But while the U.S. is staring at a future that could significantly reduce access, over

the past few years activists in other countries all over the world have won abortion rights. Some in mostly Catholic countries where that would once be considered impossible. Like just a few months ago this February. Hundreds of women celebrated outside Colombia's constitutional court at the news that having an abortion will no longer be a crime. Or back when the pandemic had just begun. This morning, Argentina became the first major Latin American country to legalize abortion. Overnight, there was no social distancing, only jubilation. This decision changes everything for millions of women.

It is not a question of ethics. It is a question of public health. And now thousands of lives will be saved. Or four years ago this month, the Republic of Ireland in 2018. Yes together for yes, we're going our way! ago this month, the Republic of Ireland in 2018. This shift was supported by 66.4% of the voters that turn out a record high for an Irish referendum, just under 65%. 100 years since women gained the right to vote, today we as a people have spoken and

we say that we trust women and respect women to make their own decisions and their own choices. Today, a look at how Ireland put an effective ban on abortion in its constitution and the long fight to win some of the rights that are now under threat in the U.S. Kaylin Hogan is our guest. She's based in Ireland and she's the author of Republic of Shame. Caitlin, thank you so much for making the time to join us today. Thanks, Jamie, for having me. So to start off, I know this story is a personal one for you. And I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling me a bit about that. Sure. It is personal. I was born in Dublin, grew up in Ireland, but my mom grew up in California

in the US. And when she was in her late teens, she became pregnant and decided that she wanted to access abortion. And she was able to do so through her local Planned Parenthood at the time. This was actually shortly after Roe v. Wade was passed. And so she was able to access safe and legal health care close to where she lived at a place that she trusted, an environment that, you know, was free of judgment. And actually, her mother came over later that evening, she told me and sort of brought a cake and was very supportive. And, you know, what do you do? And the second time that she became pregnant, she was living in Ireland, and abortion was

illegal. And there was actually a constitutional ban on abortion. And so she was forced to travel as thousands of women and pregnant people have been from Ireland to England to access health care there. There was so much shame and sort of secrecy and silence around that experience around having to leave Ireland to access legal abortion elsewhere. I think she came back the same day and had to go to work that evening, you know, not sort of telling anyone, you know, being worried that if something went wrong, how could she tell her doctor? She was much older at that time, you know, and the choice was very clear for her at the time. She was very confident in her choice. She never regretted either of the abortions that she had that allowed her to continue with her life and make

the choices that she wanted but you know that the difference in those experiences um from you know being able to go to her local health care provider to being forced to travel as if you know she was sort of a criminal or as if she was doing something wrong. And obviously that's, you know, with the news coming out, the potential that abortion rights in the US will be, you know, restricted even further. I know that she has been incredibly upset by that and sort of angry as well, knowing that um that access to health care was for her and for her life yeah absolutely you know i hope that uh what you and i can get into today is how ireland got here uh to a place where it recently um made abortion legal in the country unlike the u.s ireland didn't actually get most of its current or previous approach to abortion through the courts. It happened from a pair of referendums. And like I said, we'll talk about the most recent one ban on abortion and can you give me the context

for what was happening in Ireland at the time and how this vote actually happened? So abortion was criminalized from the 1800s in Ireland from I think 1861 through the Fences Against the Person Act which was a British law. Ireland was under British rule at the time. So it was criminalised. But in 1983, there was a referendum that led to an amendment to the Constitution, which described the mother's life as equal to the life of the unborn or the life of the fetus. And so actually, you you know made it a constitutional ban on abortion. Now the president has yet to sign the eighth amendment to the

constitution and it awaits his signature before it becomes part of Banrach na hÉireann. It will read as follows that the state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother guarantees in its law to respect and so far as practicable by its laws to defend and to vindicate that right and so at the time ireland was you know a very conservative society and contraception was not fully legal condoms weren't fully legal until the 1990s. In 1983, there was, at that time, there was a campaign by the pro-life amendment founded and run, that campaign was founded and run by various Catholic organizations, Catholic Young Men's Society, etc. And we're very concerned, people involved in that campaign were also, you know, sort interested in in limiting access to contraception

and concerned with issues of illegitimacy and um and obviously this amendment just sort of strengthened that ban on abortion made it constitutional and had a very chilling effect on you know on whether a health care provider a doctor could intervene to save the life of a mother. I know your book, Republic of Shame, it talks about the women and girls who got pregnant who are forced by the church to go through with the pregnancy and give their babies up for adoption uh through the 90s can you tell me about that so i actually think that um the breaking of silence around the experiences of of um mothers in these institutions and and of children who are separated from their mothers within these

institutions was a real catalyst for change in Ireland. You know, in 2014, news broke internationally actually about an institution in Tuam where hundreds of children had died, more than 800 children had died. And there was research by Catherine Corliss, a local historian, that some of these children might be buried in a sewage tank. And further test excavations showed that there were the remains of infants and children found on the grounds of this institution that was run by nuns. This little one is 1939. Her name was Annie. She was only three months old

and she died of epilepsy. His name is Gerard. He was one month old and he was the son of a domestic which was put down for them all and he died of a respiratory infection. A lot of those diseases, they weren't fatal.

If they were treated on time and if they got the proper medication and the proper care, I do believe that they could have saved quite a lot more of them. And survivors of these institutions who had been so-called unmarried mothers were sent away to these so-called homes. They were forced to work while pregnant there, unpaid for the nuns. They were told not to speak to anyone within the institution. They were shamed. They were told they were sinful. They often were made to give birth without access to pain medication. And when they gave birth, were not allowed to spend time with their own baby other than at feeding times.

And many were separated and the children were given up or taken for adoption from their mothers and some illegally adopted as well and so I've spoken to so many people who are mothers who are searching for information on their own children still and people adopted through the system are still actually denied access to information on their own identity in Ireland. So the legacy of that system is ongoing and has scarred so many lives and separated families. We still had mother and baby homes, so-called mother and baby home institutions, operating until the late 90s. There was even one in Donegal that operated until 2006. There was even one in Donegal that operated until 2006.

Actually, I've spoken to people who were, you know, gave birth the same year that an alternative to abortion, which I think really showed an ignorance to the harm that these institutions did. in even the draft Supreme Court case, Alito's judgment, which talks about adoption as an alternative to abortion. Thousands of Irish children were adopted to the US through this system, through Catholic charities, which still operates. And actually there's an organization called the Adoption Rights Alliance, which is set up by survivors who are forcibly separated from their mothers through religious institutions and agencies.

Survivors of these institutions standing up for the right to legal abortion and for reproductive rights. Because often they, you know, have been used in many ways in debates around access to abortion. At least you're alive, you know, your mother, you know, if abortion was there, maybe you wouldn't be alive. Which is very cruel, hypothetical. And I think interesting because I don't think I would be alive if my mom hadn't had access to legal abortion. You know, that allowed her to live the life that she has and and to meet my father and to have me so I know another tragedy that really pushed the conversation for a new referendum forward was the death of a young woman, Savita Halapanavar. And can you tell me about that case and what happened?

Absolutely. Savita Halapanavar was a dentist of Indian origin living in Ireland. And she died in 2012 when she was, I think, just 31 or in her early 30s. And she had miscarried. She was in the process of miscarrying. And she died from sepsis after being refused an abortion. And it was reported that she was told in the hospital that she couldn't get an abortion because this is a Catholic country. And so in the wake of Savita's death, there was vigils, there were vigils, people came out onto the streets after news of her death, held vigils outside government buildings. Thousands marched in Dublin to express

their sadness at the death of Savita Halapanova and to demand legislation on exactly when a doctor is allowed to abort a foetus. She was a woman who needed our help. She needed the help of a medical team who understood what the guidelines were, that they could fulfil the Hippocratic Oath to do no harm, and they had no clarity. It also sort of unleashed a wave of testimony, of people speaking out, speaking about their own experiences

of being forced to travel to access abortion of having to take abortion pills at home in a country where they knew they could be criminalized for doing so there was a real breaking of silences around this and it led to in 2013 there was the protection of life during pregnancy act that was passed to sort of protect the life of pregnant people if it was a risk. But there was still that constitutional ban on abortion that held the life of the unborn equal to the life of the mother. So, you know, doctors spoke out about that at the time, saying it was still not clear and there was still this chilling effect on actually acting. And so in the years following that, we had a citizens' assembly in 2016 on the question of legalising abortion, which came out in support of access to legal abortion.

And then in 2018, we had the referendum. The final confirmation the crowds had been waiting for came this evening. Votes in favour of the proposal, 1,429,981. The referendum had drawn the biggest youth vote in Irish history. The vote in Irish history. The vote in 2018, it was overwhelmingly in favour of a repeal by two thirds, hey?

Yeah, more than 66%. It was interesting because it's strange to have that landslide vote and support. And yet, I think before the vote vote happened there was still a lot of worry that it might not pass and I think still a fear that that Ireland was a Catholic country that it was that there was sort of a silent majority out there that would oppose this and and in in the wake of it I think we've seen a real change in Ireland and people speaking out more and sort of trusting each other, you know, in a sense that, well, I grew up knowing that abortion was illegal. I remember in school there would be jokes about a shopping trip to England, you know, and it was something that we knew, that we all knew was a reality. It has been sort of a radical change to see people,

to see the support for that. Even when the Pope visited in 2018, the same year, I remember going to the mass in the Phoenix Park in Dublin and I ended up walking with two sort of middle-aged women who were mass goers, who were, you know, good Catholics. They said, well, we voted to repeal we voted for for legal abortion and you know we're still going to see the pope and still going to mass but you know i think that's an interesting reality too that uh the church should be very aware of

um with that with that landslide vote that there's definitely people in their pews who who voted for repeal, who voted for legal abortion. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together.

To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. In terms of reproductive rights right now in Ireland, like where do you think stand now? What's the landscape like? So we have, you know know the health act passed so the regulation of termination of pregnancy act um which there are many restrictions on it there you know it's only up until 12 weeks unless the life or health of the mother is at risk and you also have to go to two different appointments with a doctor before

you can actually access abortion. And there's also no safe access zones. So we have seen anti-abortion protesters outside of the National Maternity Hospital and sort of health clinics. So there's a lot still to be done. There's still barriers when it comes to lack of provision in many areas in Ireland. And there's still conscientious objections. So we still have some maternity hospitals where there isn't any actual services. So it's not, it's also not decriminalized.

So outside of those restrictions, it's still illegal and you still can be criminalized for accessing an abortion. And I know that, you know, it's been interesting to see many sort of often Catholic or religious anti-abortion organizations in the States sort of seeking to influence the situation in Ireland. And so it's, you know, there are still challenges. in Ireland. And so it's, you know, there are still challenges. Yeah. Caitlin, you know, as somebody who spent so much time looking at the history in Ireland, if you could look at what's happening in the US through that lens, how do you think that this likely decision of the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, how do you think it will transform US society? I can only think of people like my mom, who might be, you know, in need of

accessing legal abortion and who will be denied, you know, the unimaginable sort of pain and trauma that could cause. I think we've seen in Ireland, I mean, for the many years that abortion was banned, was prohibited, it didn't, it never stopped abortions taking place. It just imposed more suffering on women and on pregnant people who were forced to travel, you know, in silence, in secrecy to access health care. I think I would worry very much about the influence of religious ideology as well. I think the religious right have been lobbying for this for so long in the States. And in Ireland, we have seen the you know the ongoing legacy of harm um of a de facto theocracy where the church essentially uh you know influenced our legislation because of of moral

you know ideas of doctrine that that said that sex outside of marriage was wrong or you know um and the way that uh women and and were shamed for so many years in this country and denied basic rights yeah and i i think we're seeing in the states the you know the rollback of of not just abortion rights but of you know the concerns about access to contraception and um and marriage equality and LGBT plus rights. Caitlin, thank you. Thank you so much for this. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening.

We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.