Front Burner - 'Mama, I can't breathe': Witnesses recount George Floyd's last moments

Episode Date: April 9, 2021

George Floyd’s death under police officer Derek Chauvin’s knee sparked global protests over race and policing. Now, the world is watching Chauvin’s murder trial. Minneapolis Public Radio’s Brandt Williams breaks down the key moments so far.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. When I look at George Floyd, I look at my dad. I look at my brothers. I look at my cousins, my uncles, because they are all black.

I have a black father. I have a black brother. I have black friends. And I look at that, and I look at how that could have been one of them. That's Darnella Frazier. She was just 17 years old when she watched George Floyd die outside a convenience store in Minneapolis. She recorded it on her phone. And that recording of a Minneapolis police officer pinning Floyd to the cement with his knee went around the world.

It sparked unprecedented protests about police brutality and racism, and it's taken an unimaginable toll on the young woman who filmed it. It's been nights I stayed up apologizing and and apologizing to George Floyd for not doing more and not physically interacting and not saving his life. But it's like, it's not what I should have done. It's what he should have done. He, being that now ex-officer, Derek Chauvin. being that now ex-officer, Derek Chauvin. Now 18, Darnella is one of many witnesses who have taken the stand over the last two weeks at Derek Chauvin's murder trial. Today, I'm speaking with Minnesota Public Radio reporter, Brant Williams, about the testimony that we've heard so far, how the case against Chauvin is shaping up, and what we can expect from his defense.

Hi, Brant. Thank you for being here. Oh, thanks for having me. So just before we started, we played a clip from the testimony of Darnella Frazier. She recorded this crucial piece of evidence, this video that we've all seen and heard. And can you tell me a little bit more about what she had to say on the stand? Right. Well, I think one of the other probably most interesting things that Darnella had to stay on the stand. Right. Well, I think one of the other probably interesting, most interesting things that Darnella had to say besides the clip that you played was she mentioned how she is not a confrontational person. She was not one of the people you could

hear yelling at the officers to stop. And she said that she has somewhat social anxiety and is not the type of person who is going to push back like that. But by deciding to go ahead and post that for the world to see, she basically set this off in a way that I don't think would have happened had she not posted that video. And of course, Frazier's was just one of several really powerful testimonies that we heard in that first week of the trial, which really focused on the witnesses to George Floyd's death and the bystanders, the crowd that gathered. And is there another moment that stood out for you from one of those witnesses? Yeah, I think the testimony of Christopher Martin, the young store clerk who was working at Cup Foods on the day that this happened. And Christopher Martin described his interaction with George Floyd. He said how, you know, he noticed his size. He noticed how big he was. And he asked him if he'd played baseball.

He said he played football. him if he'd played baseball. He said he played football. And when you were communicating with him, can you describe for the jurors, tell me what his demeanor was like? What was his condition like? So when I had asked him if he played baseball, he went on to respond to that, but it kind of took him a little long to get to what he was trying to say. So it would appear that he was high. So you just had some signs that you thought he was under the influence of something? Yes. And Christopher Martin said, you know, I could tell that he was by the by how long it took him to kind of answer my question, that I could tell he was a little high. But he's a friendly guy. And Christopher Martin testified later that he felt guilty that after accepting the $20 bill that he suspected was fake, that he didn't let it go.

Instead, he contacted his manager and his manager told him to go speak to Floyd and get him back in there. And then when that didn't happen, the manager asked another employee to call the police. You saw you standing there with your hands on your head for a while, correct? Correct. What was going through your mind during that time period?

Disbelief and guilt. Why guilt? If I would have just not taken the bill, this could have been avoided. And Christopher Martin took that personally, that he was really palpable watching both of these testimonies. That's right. And you could even say that somebody like Donald Williams, the MMA fighter, who was very visibly agitated, recognized the situation that he would not himself alone be able to stop this. All he was, he was using his words to try to get the officers to stop. I think that came through in his testimony. And I think that's what prosecutors wanted to hear from him was to have jurors be exposed to someone who felt that type of helplessness. Somebody who, you know, if one-on-one,

if it was his, I guess, situation to have to defend George Floyd from Derek Chauvin, the man outside of a uniform, Donald Williams probably could do that pretty well. But knowing that the uniforms and the firepower that police officers hold, Donald Williams is one man using his voice. He couldn't stop what was going on, though he tried.

Bro, he ain't crying, bro. You circling, like, in a jiu-jitsu move, bro? You're trapping his breathing right there, bro. Like, you don't think that's what it is, bro? You don't think nobody understands that shit right there, bro? I trained at the academy, bro. That's some bullshit, bro. Right, that's bullshit, bro. That's bullshit, bro. You fucking stopping his breathing right there, bro? I trained at the academy, bro. That's some bullshit, bro. Right. That's bullshit, bro. That's bullshit, bro. You fucking stopping this breathing right there, bro. I want to talk to you a little bit about how the defense approached these really powerful testimonies.

And speaking of Williams, I think we did get some insight into their approach, particularly when they cross-examined him. And can you talk to me a little bit about what the defense was trying to do with this witness and with the bystanders more generally? and with the bystanders more generally? So there are a couple different things that the defense was trying to do, it seemed like, with the bystanders. Number one, Eric Nelson, the defense attorney, would continually point out that the bystanders could not see everything that was going on behind the officers, behind the squad car. And Nelson intimated that there were other things going on that gave the officers a sense of foreboding, of that there was perhaps some imminent danger to them, and that

they acted accordingly based on their training as officers to recognize when things might start to get out of hand. Now, the other thing that I think Nelson tried to play up as well was that if they had, there are situations when somebody may be in custody and they may be struggling and then they stop struggling. And if they let up that this person could jump up and be a threat not only to themselves and the officers, but people in the crowd. You know, they were along a busy street. I think Nelson tried to frame this as being a safety issue as well for George Floyd, that had they let off of him, that he could have gotten up and run into traffic since there were cars passing by the area. Now, when it came to the Donald Williams testimony, there were, and I heard this a lot from folks who commented on what they saw during the trial, they felt like Eric Nelson was trying to

kind of paint Donald Williams as an angry black man. And Donald Williams himself kind of seemed to recognize this on the stand and said, you can't paint me as being angry. So again, sir, on the stand and said, you can't paint me as being angry. So again, sir, it's fair to say that you grew angrier and angrier. No, I grew professional and professional. I stayed in my body. You can't paint me out to be angry. So I think that came across as being a strategy by the defense to make Donald Williams sound like, oh, at any minute, he could have hurt these

officers. And so what would be the point of that? Why is the defense so interested in whether or not the bystanders are hostile? What does that have to do with what happened to George Floyd? What he's trying to do is like in his opening statement, Eric Nelson said, you know, I'm going to show you that Derek Chauvin was acting according to his training. He was not a rogue officer. He was not a bad apple in the department. This is how officers are trained to react. So I think that he's trying to take away that angle. And also he's trying to take away, and it hasn't come up yet, and I imagine once he presents his defense, you'll hear more about this. But of course, you heard in his opening statement saying George Floyd had drugs in his system, and that was more responsible for

his death than the actions of Derek Chauvin. So I think the crowd is just all part of, you know, that had maybe, maybe he is trying to say that if that crowd had not been so hostile, Chauvin would have gotten off of Floyd earlier and gotten him to an ambulance or put him in the back of a car, and they could have taken him to the hospital and treated him, maybe to that effect. He hasn't said so much, but perhaps he's, maybe that's what you're thinking of. Right, right. And speaking of the fact that George Floyd had drugs in his system, perhaps in anticipation of the defense's strategy here, we also heard testimony from Floyd's girlfriend, Courtney Ross. She talked about how they met at a Salvation Army shelter. He worked security there and she was in the lobby waiting to speak with her son's father. Floyd came up to me. And Floyd has this great, deep, southern voice, raspy.

And he's like, sis, you okay, sis? And I wasn't okay. I said, no, I'm just waiting for my son's father. I said, well, can I pray with you? She openly talked about the opioid addiction that she and George Floyd dealt with throughout their relationship. And by putting her up on the stand and addressing this so quickly in the trial, what do you think the prosecution strategy was here? So I think that was their strategy was to basically get out in front of it and say, yes, he did have a drug problem. And his girlfriend was on the stand to help humanize him and show that, like a lot of other people, he got into an opioid addiction from having chronic pain. He, like many people, was prescribed painkillers and he got hooked on them.

And that happens to a lot of people. prescribed painkillers and he got hooked on them. And that happens to a lot of people. Both Floyd and I, our story, it's a classic story of how many people get addicted to opioids. We both suffered from chronic pain. Mine was in my neck and his was in his back. We both had prescriptions. But after prescriptions that were filled, we got addicted and tried really hard to break that addiction many times. And she showed that he had times when he was not using drugs and sometimes when he was.

And I think her testimony was also probably meant to touch jurors in a way to show them, again, since these people have only seen George Floyd as a dead man, she was put on the stand to show what he was like as a live person, and that he had his ups and downs and they had their ups and downs as normal people do. And I think that was the basis of her testimony. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. Gem, brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So the first week, as we've just talked about, we heard from these bystanders, people that knew George Floyd. And the second week, to me, seemed more clinical, more expert-driven. And we heard from several expert witnesses, including Minneapolis Police Chief Madeira Arredondo. And can you talk to me a little bit about what we heard from him? Sure. Well, the chief was basically testifying to show that as the head of the

police department, he took a very firm stance on what is and what is not a part of the Minneapolis police values and ethics and how they're supposed to do things. Clearly, when Mr. Floyd was no longer responsive and even motionless to continue to apply that level of force in no way, shape or form is anything that is by policy, is not part of our training, and it is certainly not part of our ethics or our values. And, you know, Chief Arradondo last year, remember, not long after Derek Chauvin was arrested, he said that he believed that Derek Chauvin is guilty of murder. So he's already made it known how he feels about Derek Chauvin is guilty of murder. So he's already made it known how he feels about Derek

Chauvin's actions. How did the defense respond to Arredondo and his testimony? Their strategy was to basically ask Arredondo about some of the other, the inherent dangers of policing in that there's always the possibility that officers have to defend themselves in ways that they're maybe not trained in. Now, some of the other testimony, I'm thinking particularly about the use of force expert, Lieutenant Mersol, said there are some things that you can improvise, but these are meant to just be temporary tactics. And once you have somebody under control, you have to ramp down that force, especially a force that can really hurt somebody, such as putting your knee on their neck. We initially thought that Chauvin had his knee on George Floyd for eight minutes and

46 seconds, right? But now we know that it was really nine minutes and 29 seconds. And this length of time, it's become really, really important in this case, right? This is what they're talking about. Yes. And that is, I think, to show a couple different things. If the prosecution's goal in, at least with the second degree murder charge, is to show that Derek Chauvin's actions were primarily responsible for George Floyd's death. were primarily responsible for George Floyd's death. It's not necessarily how much intent that he is showing to try to kill George Floyd.

It's that his actions, they have to establish that he assaulted George Floyd, and in the act of doing that, he acted in a way that was so dangerous that it was primarily responsible for George Floyd's death. So that is the case that they are trying to put forward. Brant, was there another moment that stood out to you from the expert witnesses that we heard from this last week on questions around Chauvin's training and his behavior? There was some expert testimony, I think, which was, I think the prosecution felt was effective.

And one of those was a witness, Lieutenant Richard Zimmerman. He's the most senior member of the Minneapolis Police Department. He's been on the force since 1985. Now, there was some notice that Zimmerman was pretty candid about assessing the force that Chauvin used as being totally unnecessary, and that he felt like there was no justification for him keeping his knee on George Floyd's neck for that long. What is your view of that use of force during that time period? Totally unnecessary. What do you mean? Well, first of all, pulling him down to the ground face down and putting your knee on the neck for that amount of time

is just uncalled for. I saw no reason why the officers felt they were in danger, if that's what they felt. And that's what they would have to feel to be able to use that kind of force. Now, Zimmerman was one of 14 high-ranking officers who last year signed a letter saying that they felt like Chauvin's actions were not justified and that Chauvin does not represent the Minneapolis Police Department's values and ethics. So Zimmerman is known for being someone who speaks his mind and is not afraid to break what some have called that blue wall of silence. So in your opinion, should that restraint have stopped once he was handcuffed and prone on the ground?

Absolutely. And then I understand on Thursday, we started to hear more from medical experts around the actual cause of death. And can you tell me very briefly what happened there? Right. So the state called a witness, Dr. Martin Tobin, who is a pulmonologist from Chicago.

Dr. Martin Tobin, who is a pulmonologist from Chicago. And Dr. Tobin's testimony went right to the state's case that the actions that Chauvin took were directly responsible for George Floyd's death. He said George Floyd died from lack of oxygen. And he said that lack of oxygen came about because he couldn't get enough breath into his body to function normally. And he was not able to get enough breath in his body because of the pressure that was being placed on him by Chauvin's knee, on his neck, on his back, about Floyd being handcuffed face down on the pavement. And he went into basically graphic detail about how George Floyd began to die when Derek Chauvin was kneeling on him. He detailed the time,

exact time when George Floyd took his last breath. And he detailed the exact down to the second when George Floyd appeared to expire. And so that type of testimony, I think, is going to be very powerful to jurors. They're actually seeing when this man died, and it's under the knee of Derek Chauvin. He did not die in the ambulance. He did not die at HCMC, the medical center. He died under Chauvin's knee, and that's something that the prosecutors really want to show to the jury. Brant, we talked today about some really emotional and powerful testimony,

and we haven't even been able to go through all of it in this conversation today. And I can't help but think that this entire trial, it's being broadcast and watched so closely. And you're from Minneapolis. And what are people in the community saying right now? And what are people in the same. The trauma is repeating. And it gets to a point where it's built up so much that people express it in different ways. Now, this particular incident was recorded and spread around for everyone to see. But the trauma I'm talking about comes from people who have seen microaggressions by police officers that don't make it on the news, that don't result in somebody being

killed or injured or even arrested. You may remember that during jury selection, there was a black man who was not selected for the jury. After he described his past experiences with Minneapolis police officers in that neighborhood. He said he used to live in the area of 38th and Chicago. And he described situations where if someone, after somebody was killed in their neighborhood, that police would drive through and blast a song, another one bites the dust. And that was part of his experience. That was part of his reality. And when he was not selected for the jury, when the defense decided to use a peremptory strike to keep him off the jury,

that sparked another discussion about, well, whose experiences on a jury really matter? I know we talk about there being a jury of peers for the defendant, for Derek Chauvin. we talk about there being a jury of peers for the defendant, for Derek Chauvin, but this sparked more conversations about some of the other issues that are at the heart here, about race, about policing, the history of biased policing and discrimination in Minneapolis. And there are a lot of experts out there who are not on the jury. And I've talked to them over the years. I see them. who are not on the jury. And I've talked to them over the years. I see them. I've lived in this community. And so this is not going to go away after this trial, obviously, regardless of what the verdict winds up being. That was just a snippet, I think, into one of the many themes of this trial.

Brant, thank you so much for this conversation. We really, really appreciate it. Thank you. You're welcome all right so before i let you go while derek chauvin is on trial in the united states we learned that a police officer here in canada who shot e jaws chowdhury dead will not face charges on tuesday the specialations Unit said there was no legal basis to charge the officer with a crime, but the questions remained about whether Peel Police should have entered the 62-year-old's home in the first place while he was having a mental health crisis. That is all for this week. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Elaine Chow, Katie Toth,

Imogen Burchard, Ali Janes, Tatiana Furtado, and Simi Bassi. Our sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Derek Vanderwyk. Our music is by Joseph Shabison, a boombox sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McKay-Blocos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you all next week.