Front Burner - Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid's Tale and its much-hyped sequel

Episode Date: September 12, 2019

This week, hundreds of fans gathered in London to celebrate the launch of The Testaments, the much-anticipated sequel to Margaret Atwood's best-selling novel, The Handmaid's Tale. Similar events took place around the world, and the novel has already been shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize. Today on Front Burner, Slate's book critic Laura Miller on the political and cultural relevance of The Handmaid's Tale, and why there's been so much anticipation for its sequel.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Earlier this week, there was this big party at London's Waterstones Piccadilly, the largest bookstore in Europe. Over the years, I've buried a lot of bones.

Now I'm inclined to dig them up again. Women were wearing white bonnets and red robes, just gliding by quietly. Hundreds of people lined up for the midnight release of a book sequel that comes 34 years after the first. It kind of reminds me of when I was a kid and Harry Potter was coming out. My daughter introduced me to The Handmaid's Tale some years ago when she was studying it, and it's a book that we both really love. It's my girlfriend's birthday present, and she is the biggest Margaret Atwood fan I've ever met. Fans were there to celebrate the Testaments. Margaret Atwood's follow-up to her best-selling novel,

The Handmaid's Tale. There's a lot of hype around this book. It's already been shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize, one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world. The story, like The Handmaid's Tale, is set in Gilead, a theocratic state where women or handmaids are forced to bear children for the ruling class. Today we're going to discuss the lasting impact of the 1985 novel with Laura Miller. She's the book critic for Slate. Laura

has been following and writing about Margaret Atwood's work for decades. I'm Jamie Poisson, and this is FrontBurner. around the sequel, people freaking out that it got leaked. Stores are under a strict embargo. But one company, Amazon, accidentally shipped out some copies early. Big lineups to get the book and these fancy parties. It's been my heroine for such a long time. Why do you think there's been so much hype around it? Well, in a word, it's the Hulu TV series adaptation. word. It's the Hulu TV series adaptation. Ain't's Tale has been a classic assigned in many classes, read by millions of people. But what really pushed it over the top and made it the kind of phenomenon that crowds are going to show up for was the television adaptation, which was a big hit for Hulu. When they slaughtered Congress, we didn't wake up. When they blamed terrorists and suspended the Constitution, we didn't wake up then either. How closely does the TV show follow Margaret Atwood's book?

Not really at all. I mean, that's really the big difference both between the TV show and the novel and the new novel, The Testaments, and The Handmaid's Tale. the new novel, The Testaments and The Handmaid's Tale. In The Handmaid's Tale, Offred is pretty ground down by the situation that she's in. She's not fighting back in any significant way, although she does have this moment at the end where it seems like she might be getting to freedom. You can't really tell because this all depends on whether she can trust the person who's rescuing her or not. Right, right. This is the moment at the end of the book, she gets into this van and it's unclear who these people are when she gets into the van. Is she going to prison or is she getting freedom? Right. Or not even just prison. Is she going to be executed or not?

The television series turns her into a sort of resistance freedom fighter and gets her very involved in different efforts to resist the ruling regime. If I'm going to change things, I'm going to need allies. Allies with power. Now talking about this new book, The Testaments, who does it follow? Well, the new book has three different narrators instead of one. And their testimony, it's called The Testaments because one is a written document and the other two are transcriptions of recordings. And they're found much later, like this is long after the fall of Gilead, which is the name of this dictatorship. This is long after the fall of Gilead, which is the name of this dictatorship. And it's three women who lived in Gilead describing their experiences there. One of them is a young girl who was born into that society and is sort of growing up in one of the elite families and having some trouble with it. One is a girl who grew up in Canada, but who goes

back to Gilead to try to smuggle out some documents. And the main one really, and this is a handwritten document, is the character called Aunt Lydia in both The Handmaid's Tale, the novel, and The Handmaid's Tale, the TV show. You girls will serve the leaders of the faithful and their barren wives. You will bear children for them. Oh, you are so lucky! And it's her sort of secret thoughts and lives that she's writing down in a document that she's going to hide away somewhere and hope people find in the future.

And it reveals that she is not the sort of fanatical true believer that she seems in the other versions of the story. Oh, that's really interesting. You know, I can't wait to read this book. So jealous that you got the chance to read it. You've called it a crowd pleaser. And what do you mean by that? And I did not find Margaret Atwood's original Handmaid's Tale. I wouldn't necessarily define it as a crowd pleaser, right? Like it was pretty depressing read. Right. It's depressing because Offred has mostly just given up. She doesn't see a way out. She's basically living in a totalitarian society where every single aspect of life is completely controlled by the state and its authority figures. And it's really the story of how a person's identity can be erased

in that kind of situation. Both the TV version and the Testaments, they both have more cracks in the facade of Gilead from the perspective of the characters. One character starts out completely outside of Gilead, and one character helped create it, and we soon realize is trying to undermine it. And one character never knew any other way of life, but is slowly starting to have doubts about it. It's not quite so claustrophobic, and it's definitely hopeful because there is this active and effective resistance to the Gilead regime. And the efforts of that resistance are the subject of the book, which makes it a more exciting adventure than the story of what it's like to be someone who's pretty much resigned themselves. Is there hope in the second book? Why do you want me to give away the book? Tons of hope. Tons of hope. Tons of hope.

Lots and lots of hope. Why is it, do you think, that Margaret Atwood decided to write this book in that vein, right? You know, to give these characters more agency, it seems like. The original Handmaid's Tale was a book like 1984. George Orwell's 1984. Right. And it's no coincidence that she started writing it in 1984 in Berlin. Right. You know, both of those novels are about the effect of totalitarianism on the individual self, and how the individual self can be just crushed. And that was a big theme at the time that that she was writing The Handmaid's Tale. There was a gigantic totalitarian empire in the Soviet Union, that people considered to be an ongoing threat to human freedom. While they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world.

of evil in the modern world. Now we're living in a period where there really isn't quite the same totalitarian threat, but there are all different kinds of threats of other dimensions and other natures that she brings into this story. For example, the environmental aspect, which was a part of the original Handmaid's Tale, but is much more significant in the Testament. Do you think talking about the Handmaid's Tale, it's kind of become newly relevant in the last several years? You know, of course, we have this television show, but do you also think that in part it is because of the political moment that we're in right now? Well, I think when she was writing it in the 80s and then certainly in the early 2000s, it also felt really relevant because of the rise of the religious right in America in particular, and the threat that it posed to women and to LGBTQ people. But I think that we also

have become a culture that's really obsessed with dystopias and post-apocalyptic narratives. dystopias and post-apocalyptic narratives. So I think that the grimness and desperation of that is more in the popular taste now. And I do think that, you know, every time someone who has strong ties to the right, to the religious right in particular, gains control in the U.S. and the vice president, Mike Pence, of the United States is like this freakishly fundamentalist Christian guy for someone who's the vice president. Yes, you know, Mike Pence has very strong views on abortion. For me, the sanctity of life proceeds out of the belief that ancient principle that where God says before you were

formed in the womb I knew you. Life is winning again in America. He also doesn't like to be alone with women. The 2002 interview that Pence did with The Hill where he said that he never eats alone with women other than his wife and that he won't attend events with alcohol unless she is by his side. This is not like that rare of a thing in a certain kind of conservative religious politician. It's just this really primitive notion of masculinity and femininity and a real fetishization of this sort of, you know, moral purity or sexual purity. And you can sort of see that kind of bleeding over into the idea of Gilead. But the thing about Gilead that is important to remember is that although Christianity or in particular, a kind of an Old Testament patriarchal piety, is the justification for Gilead, you don't really see the people of Gilead in any of the books

seeming particularly religious. The religion is like the doctrine that justifies the power structure more than the other way around. Almost like the religion becomes an excuse for the actions. Exactly, exactly. And several times when the male characters in the Testaments discuss why they think their government is a good idea. And this is also true of the TV series. Their argument is a little bit like the Grand Inquisitor in Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov. You know, it's like women don't really want freedom. Freedom is harmful to women. You know, we're saving them from freedom. I think there are probably strains of that in the reproductive arguments that we're seeing across the United States right now, you know, that, them from freedom. I think there are probably strains of that in the reproductive arguments

that we're seeing across the United States right now, you know, that, you know, women essentially need to be protected from making this decision on abortion. It's hard to separate the rhetorical moves that these groups make from what they really believe, like they will argue that they're protecting women, because their opponents say that they're protecting women because their opponents say that they're attacking women. But catch people with these beliefs in a less sort of guarded and calculating mood. Really, what they want to do is control women's sexuality and they see pregnancy as a punishment. And of course, now we have people dressing up as handmaids in multiple protests across the United States and in other parts of the world. Wearing red and standing in silence is how dozens of demonstrators chose to protest the Philadelphia visit of Vice President Mike Pence.

The women in red showed up to protest the controversial ban on abortion that just passed the Senate in Alabama. Today, you see the costume, you know what it means. I'm a little ambivalent sometimes about the adaptation of The Handmaid's Tale because I think that it turns Offred into too much of like a kick-ass action hero type who seems kind of more tiresomely conventional. who seems kind of more tiresomely conventional. But I do really like the way the television series has created this powerful visual language for people's resistance to a very real attempt

to control women and their sexuality and their reproduction. We're talking, of course, about how this book and the themes in it are fitting into the abortion debate. The TV series was also released around the time of the Me Too movement. And what connections are there between the two? Well, I definitely think that the idea that powerful men get away with bullying and abusing women was something that was in the air at the time in a really explosive way.

The New York Times alleges that Harvey Weinstein is guilty of decades of sexual harassment. A decades-long trail of alleged abuse. This included allegations of sexual assault and a coordinated campaign of intimidation. Many of the women who had been victimized by Harvey had also been legally silenced by him through these secret settlements. And we're looking at a society where that is just overtly accepted, that in fact it's considered the right thing to do. And I can definitely see why people at the time would say, if we don't act on all these stories that are coming out now and insist that it's acceptable, we could wind up there. The frightening truth is the roots of Gilead are firmly embedded in our own times.

At the same time as I was writing it, I was clipping things out of newspapers, and I now have a large clipping file supporting most of the contentions in the book. clipping file supporting most of the contentions in the book. In other words, there isn't anything in the book that isn't based on something that hasn't already happened either in history or in In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. You mentioned before that we're obsessed with dystopias. You know, why do you think that's the case?

A dystopia like Handmaid's Tale, I think, is really, you know, people's interest in it is really political. The rebellious good guys give it to the man and fight back against the power. I mean, anyone who's ever been stuck in a situation where they feel powerless is going to identify with that. I wonder if it's also about people putting themselves in the position of some of these protagonists, like people wondering what they might do if they lived under a similar regime. You're very right, because people are anxious, in particular right now, about the rise of sort of authoritarian nationalist movements all over the world, and what those reactionary movements might be capable of, and what kind of societies they'd set up, where they'd have to just force everyone to go back 50 years to an imaginary

ideal past, that suddenly seems like a very real possibility. It wasn't the kind of false utopia of the Soviet Union, but it's a different kind. And it's seeming more real to people than that kind of authoritarian society has since 1989. Thousands and thousands of West Germans come to make the point that the wall has suddenly become irrelevant, something, as you can see, almost a party on. How do you measure such an astonishing moment in history? And, you know, this idea that people might wonder to themselves,

you know, what role might I play in this? You know, is it possible that we play a role that could hold up a regime like this, could be implicated in it? Yeah, I mean, I think what the original novel of The Handmaid's Tale was trying to say is that most of us would just give up in the face of that kind of state power where it just feels like there's no way out. Most of us aren't willing to risk life and limb for principle with the sentiment of give me liberty or give me death. We like to think that we would, but I think what the totalitarian societies of the mid and late 20th century showed us was that most people will just go along to get along.

Other people will use the system in whatever way they can for whatever advantage they can get. And that most of us aren't the sort of valiant band of heroes fighting back against the power. I'm interested to hear your perspective on this. At the end of The Handmaid's Tale, the novel, you're transported to this symposium in the year 2195. You find out that you've been reading this historical account written by Offred that's being studied by academics trying to understand Gilead. And in that spirit, if we fast forwarded another 30 years, what do you think will be written about our own fascination with this world that Atwood has created with The Handmaid's Tale and also with this new book, The Testaments?

I think it really depends on what happens to us as a culture between now and then. Are we going to successfully beat back the threat of authoritarianism? And will then we look back, the way that we look back at a movie like Invasion of the Body Snatchers as a movie that captures under glass the mood of a historical moment that's passed. Suddenly while you're asleep they'll

absorb your minds your memories and you're reborn into an untroubled world where everyone's the same exactly what a world. Or will books like this become almost like old-time Soviet samistat, you know, passed around secretly because reading them or even owning them is an act of rebellion against the authoritarian society. I mean, it really kind of depends on how well we respond to the challenges that we're meeting right now. Laura, thank you so much for this conversation. It was so fascinating. Thank you. It was a pleasure. So before we go today, I just wanted to loop back on something we talked about in yesterday's episode. Vashi Capellos was here to talk about the upcoming federal election.

And she said that you can tell a lot about a party's priorities from what the leaders have to say on the first day of their campaign. So here they are. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau, conservative leader Andrew Scheer, Green Party leader Elizabeth May, and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh. Politics is about people. Maybe you're a recent grad or a new Canadian. Maybe you're raising your kids or living out your golden years in retirement. Whoever you are, you deserve a real plan for your future. We've done a lot together these past four years, but the truth is, we're just getting started. As this election campaign begins,

Canadians learned two disturbing details about the SNC-Lavalin corruption scandal. Number one, the RCMP are looking into the Liberal government for possible obstruction of justice. And number two, Justin Trudeau is doing everything he can to block them. His actions in the SNC-Lavalin affair are beyond dispute. This election is about telling the truth to Canadians about how serious the climate emergency really is. And we do that in order not to create fear. We do that in

order to give everyone hope. We have a plan. We know this is a climate emergency and we don't just use the words without understanding their meaning. We are going to bring a hopeful message to Canadians that we can build the country of our dreams. A country where everyone has a place to call home. Healthcare when they need it. Clean water to drink and clean air to breathe. Good jobs and a bright future. You know, everywhere I go,

I meet hardworking people who wanted to be treated fairly and want to build a good life for themselves and their family. These are the people New Democrats have always worked for. These are the people I'm in it for. Thank you. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening and see you guys tomorrow.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.