Front Burner - Mass graves uncovered at Gaza hospitals
Episode Date: May 1, 2024In early April, after Israeli troops withdrew from the area surrounding the Nasser Medical Complex in Khan Younis, Palestinian recovery teams were able to assess the destruction. And just last week, m...ass graves were uncovered on the hospital grounds. There’s been similar reports at Al-Shifa hospital in Northern Gaza as well.United Nations officials are calling for independent investigations into the matter. A statement by the Israeli Defence Forces has said accusations that they had buried the bodies were "baseless and unfounded".Freelance journalist Akram Al-Sattari has been reporting from the grounds of the Nasser Medical Complex. He spoke to Front Burner about what he witnessed.
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Hi, I'm Elaine Chao, Senior Producer on the show. I'm filling in for Jamie Poisson today.
A warning before we start,
there are some graphic and distressing descriptions of war and death in this interview,
so please listen with care.
Throughout the Gaza war, some hospitals, despite being protected spaces under international humanitarian law, have been targeted by Israeli forces.
The IDF says it's because they believe Hamas uses places like hospitals to plan and carry out their operations.
That they can be places where Hamas militants are hiding.
Nasser Medical Complex in Han Yunis is one of the hospitals that was under attack.
There was intense fighting around it for a while,
and in February, staff there said they were hit directly by tank fire.
According to the staff there, Israeli troops stormed into the hospital shortly after.
Gunshots were heard.
And in the videos that they posted, there was smoke and debris all around
as people searched for survivors under the rubble with the lights on their phones.
The raids were so devastating that a few days later,
the hospital was declared no longer functional.
devastating that a few days later, the hospital was declared no longer functional.
After Israeli troops withdrew from Pan Yunis in early April,
Palestinian recovery teams were able to assess the destruction.
And just last week, mass graves were uncovered on the grounds of Nasser Hospital.
There's been similar reports at al-Shifa Hospital in northern Gaza as well.
United Nations officials are calling for independent investigations.
They want to understand who died and how. Today, I'm talking to freelance journalist Akram Al-Satri about all of this. He's based in Gaza,
and he's just returned from the grounds at Nasser Hospital in Han Yunus.
Hello, Akram. Thank you for coming on FrontBurner.
Hello. Good afternoon. Gaza time. And we've reached you in Rafah today, is that right?
Yes, that's right. I'm in Rafah, still moving between Thaniounis and Rafah, but mainly staying in Rafah.
And Akram, before we get to what you saw on the Nasser Hospital grounds, can you tell me a little bit about what the hospital was like before?
You know, what role did it play in the region? What was it like there in the earlier
days of the war? Nasser Medical Hospital is one of the largest hospitals in the Gaza Strip. I think
one of five major hospitals in the Gaza Strip. It used to serve whole and unis area with a
population of around 300,000 people. It used to have a pediatric department or pediatric hospital
and another general hospital. It was very busy, very instrumental when people needed some
either emergency services or just hospitalizations, surgeries, specialized surgeries,
neurovascular surgeries, orthopedic surgeries. It was a hospital
that was serving a very large population, a very significant proportion from the Gaza Strip. It is
located near a 10-unit refugee camp. So it is a very special place and a very special function
that is no longer functional. Right. Really quite vital to the region in terms of providing medical care.
But it's also been subject to many attacks during the war, especially in around mid-February,
right? Yes, exactly. It was subjected to a great deal of military operations, not only one,
two military operations took place in Nasser Hospital,
one of which was less devastating, which is the first one. The second was extremely devastating.
I visited the hospital several times and all you can see is empty buildings. Some of them
are totally burned and something that is extremely heart-wrenching. So the hospital's been out of service since about late February, mid to late February.
And this discovery of the mass graves was made after Israeli troops withdrew from Han Yunus earlier this month.
And you were at the ground last week, is that right?
And can you tell me a little bit more about what you saw?
Well, I was there for around five days, going there from the morning up to the afternoon
and sometimes in the afternoon up to the evening.
What I saw there was a large number of people. Some of them
are family members, some others are civil defense staff, some others are medical staff,
and they were all relentlessly trying to dig out the bodies, identify them, bury them.
Families were communicating with their relatives and asking them to come.
I saw mothers screaming and crying after finding their either sons or daughters,
wives crying when they're finding their husbands, bodies that are decomposed body everywhere.
And that smell even is not stopping the people
from holding their deers,
celebrating the fact that they found their bodies.
Because we as Muslims,
we believe that an honor to the body is the burial.
We need to bury them for an honor of their bodies.
So what I saw was something that
made me cry many times through the past, the days that I was at Nasser Hospital. Something
that is unimaginable. I never thought I would see something similar to that.
I know it's extremely difficult to talk about, but can you describe for me a little bit more
about what you saw in terms of the condition that the bodies were in?
The bodies were totally decomposed.
The smell of the bodies was extremely strong.
That made me feel dizzy and like some certain times wanting to vomit.
And you see people from different ages.
You see old ones, younger younger ones middle-aged ones
girls boys men women it was such a diversified uh scene of bodies and and those bodies i think
they were there was somehow a time interval between the period of one or two patches of the bodies.
So some of the bodies were starting to decompose, and I think that was the third layer of the mass grave,
and some other bodies were just more decomposing than others,
and I think that was more of the first and the second layer of the bodies.
So they were stuck on top of each other, and it looks like the one who was burying them
was burying one patch of the people,
one cohort, and then another cohort,
and then a third cohort.
So it seems like to suggest
that the burials took place at different times.
Exactly, different times,
different bodies, and different conditions.
different bodies and different conditions.
The Palestinian Civil Defense says that there are almost 400 bodies there in three separate grave sites. And they recently held a press conference about the findings.
What else did they have to say about what was found in the graves?
They held the press conference to provide a rundown of the number of bodies that were found
and more to provide an account of the circumstances surrounding that discovery,
surrounding those three mass graves.
They highlighted the fact that it was apparent,
it was evident to them that those people were tortured and some of them were buried alive.
They were talking about, as I told you, the rundown.
And they also highlighted the fact that they found
at least 10 bodies that were tied up, that were handcuffed.
And they said that there were some gunshots
in some of the bodies that were found.
So the facts that were stated in that press conference were quite shocking. The incident itself, even
without the unfolding reality about it, is extremely shocking. But they were providing
an account of the circumstances and the circumstances were also somehow extremely shocking, describing
what they saw because they were there 24 hours a day for around
nine days and they were the ones who were discovering the bodies and they were also with
the help of the families trying to uncover the bodies trying to identify like the shoes the
pants the clothes the coat and anything that might help the families identify their dears
so they have also been suffering.
And I think by doing that all that time, they have came to a conclusion about the type of things that were happening with those people before they died. Some of them are extremely horrifying.
When you see someone whose hands or whose legs are tied.
And were you able to see this firsthand as well, or this is mostly from the accounts from the civil defense?
by the time that I was going, not in one day, but in different days, because I was there reporting,
seeing the things, speaking to the families. I saw many of them, unfortunately.
The IDF has told CNN that any claim that the IDF buried Palestinian bodies is baseless and unfounded. They've denied any wrongdoing. Can you tell me a bit more about what
else they've said about these uncovered mass graves? Well, the IDF is expected to defend,
I would say, to defend their integrity and to defend their name as they call themselves the
most civilized army on earth. And I'm not surprised that they have been saying that.
But what really surprises me as a Palestinian,
before being a reporter or any other thing,
is how can people be prepared
while the army that was controlling the full compound
was there in a very intensified military operation
out and about to arrest the tourists as being described by the
army and find the strongholds of Hamas as also described by the army. And they don't know about
the barriers. And I should know that they have acknowledged exhuming bodies that had already
been buried and then reburying them. They have acknowledged that. Yeah, yeah, they have acknowledged. And apparently they were doing that for the
sake of conducting some forensic evidence tests or DNA tests because they were trying to identify
the Israeli captives.
Right. Whether there were hostages who were...
Yeah, exactly.
The examination was carried out respectfully while maintaining the dignity of the deceased.
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I want to move now to talking a little bit about the mass grave that's been found at al-Shifa Hospital.
been found at al-Shifa hospital. And Palestinian civil defense says that there's at least 381 bodies that have been recovered from the area near the hospital. And this is in northern Gaza,
of course. Health officials discovered this mass grave in the courtyard of al-Shifa hospital
in Gaza City. The doctors who say they witnessed the killings knew exactly where to look.
The doctors who say they witnessed the killings knew exactly where to look.
But more were found last week.
And in terms of the Israeli officials' response to this, they've also denied wrongdoing here.
They've long kind of insisted that Ashfa was a place where Hamas militants were using as a command centre.
What we have found, I think, is only the tip of the iceberg.
In the radiology building, military equipment.
There is an AK-47.
Also found uniforms, insignia and a laptop. One thing has been established is that Hamas does have headquarters, weapons, materiel below this hospital, and I suspect others.
We know that senior Hamas terrorists have regrouped inside the Shifa hospital and are using it to command attacks against Israel.
Staff there have denied this.
There's also been quite extensive reporting from places like the Washington Post about how there's been a lack of evidence on this. How has the IDF responded in particular, specifically to the reports coming out of al-Shifa Hospital about the mass graves there?
there? They denied them and they tend to prescribe the whole operation as something that was necessary to fight against Hamas. And at the very beginning, when they first stormed, when the IDF first stormed
there was no fire exchange whatsoever. And then second time they were attacking and they were
releasing some reports that they were attacking Hamas groups
with them and also other Palestinian factions, be it the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other factions.
However, some of the reports that were indicating that were responded to by some of the people who were there
and who were already aware of the things that were happening.
So that's why when they attacked the Shifa, they said it's a stronghold.
They said all the things, and they even released some footage of some of the cash and some
of the weapons within a Shifa complex.
For me, there's no way to verify the information.
There's no way to accept one way of saying things or another.
Right.
There is no way to accept one way of saying things or another. Right. They have shown kind of large quantities of weapons, intelligence documents and such, but not any evidence in relation to just like an extensive command center, right?
The Israeli spokesperson, the IDF spokesperson, in the very few days of the war, the ground operation when it kicked out, he was showing a sketch.
I still remember that sketch.
In that sketch, he was showing three layers of tunnels under a shifa, if you recall that.
I do, yeah.
The hospital's energy and infrastructure is simultaneously being used by Hamas's underwhelmed terrorist network and its leaders.
Underneath this hospital, which is intended to provide health care,
it's a bunker full of Hamas terrorists. This is the reality that hides underneath the Shifa hospital.
He was saying under this they have, they are stockpiling the ammunition, under this they have
the control and command, and under this they have this and that. And after three, two months,
after staying two months in Shifa, they prove nothing. And after three, two months, after staying two months in a shifa,
they prove nothing.
And that prompts us to question
the whole narrative
when it comes to a shifa.
What were they doing?
Why were they doing that?
And what have they found?
And why did not they show
the things that they were saying
are within a shifa
if they have already found them.
Akram, the UN and White House officials have both called for an investigation into the uncovered mass graves at Nasser and al-Shifa hospital.
The UN is pushing for an inquiry.
We are stressing the need for international investigations.
There's a history here of impunity for gross violations.
Washington also wants to know more.
Those reports were deeply disturbing.
We have been in touch at multiple levels with the Israeli government.
There are reports now that investigators with the
International Criminal Court are talking to medical staff from both of those hospitals.
They have been talking about possible crimes committed by the Israeli military during their
existence inside the medical facility, but yet the identities of those medics are still unknown for
security. And they want to determine whether there was the intentional killing of civilians,
which would be a war crime.
What would an independent investigation involve?
And what exactly do you think they'll be looking to get answers on?
Well, I think the United States has not been so keen about finding the truth about anything.
I think even after those
people passing all those difficulties and then dying, with all the respect to the dead people,
people who are still alive are more important than the ones who are dead.
And now they're worried about the dead people. Okay, I personally accept that. But how long time should we wait before they do something?
Now the main issue is with this issue of the mass grave in Nasser Hospital, Shifa Hospital, and Kamal Adwan Hospital.
How long time? That's my question.
How long time would the Palestinians wait before they see something
tangible? Now, when it comes to the international criminal court, Palestinians have been anxiously
following the news about that and hoping that justice will be served, even if it's at the
rhetoric level. They understand that those grave violations need to be supported. By the way, I was
talking today to the director of the
Independent Commission for Human Rights, and they have already made some good files covering
everything that has to do with the people who were buried and with the bodies that were
unearthed and with the condition of those bodies. And I think Palestinians are already
hopeful that they would provide an evidence that would help the ICC make a decision or the ICJ make a decision about the atrocities as they described them, the atrocities that were committed in Gaza.
So Palestinians are hopeful.
And they have been always skeptical about the intentions of the United States and about the efficacy of the international system that was built to perpetuate imbalances, according to the description of the Palestinians who have been suffering without anyone helping them technically.
We started this conversation talking about Nasser Hospital and just how crucial it is in the region.
We've got Shifa Hospital that's been destroyed.
That was the largest medical facility in Gaza.
We've got the two largest hospitals that have gone down,
no longer functional.
What has that meant for people needing to seek out medical care in Gaza?
Well, people find it difficult to seek medical care.
I visit the UNRWA clinics that already become shelters and clinics.
They have been struggling.
People have been struggling with access to health care.
Everything was affected, not only the physical buildings of the hospitals,
but also the flow of the medical consumables and medical supplies, including medications,
has been affected greatly by the ongoing operations.
So people have a real struggle accessing everything.
Now, people who have ordinary problems, not the ones who are injured, are also facing a problem because they need to be cured for the sake of just
accessing the care. People who are injured also are being prioritized, not only when it comes to
the surgeries but also when it comes to the access to the very vital, be it oxygen system. So people
who have been trained, I think most of the medical teams
in gaza have been trained either by the international committee of the red cross
or palestinian red crescent society on how to prioritize which means who to administer the
oxygen to and who they decide needs it more than the other. If someone who's of a specific age that needs it,
if he's old, then they should decide to give to the young. It's very complicated and hard-trenching
also because they're humans and they're dealing with the humans. And the catastrophe that has
been felt in the Gaza Strip is more than the capacity of any health system. And as a result
of that, people continue suffering. People continue having an issue of access,
access crisis to anything,
and they have been struggling and trying to cope with that,
although it's very difficult to cope with.
Akram, how are you doing?
I know you're, I mean, we're reaching you in Rafah.
I know that on Monday, Gaza health officials reported that there were Israeli airstrikes that killed at least 22 people, including six women and five children.
What's going on around you right now, today?
Well, one of the houses that were targeted,
by the way, the attacks that killed the 27 Palestinians
were attacks that targeted six different houses
in different parts of Rafah.
One of the houses that was targeted
was a few hundred
yards away from the place where I'm staying. The explosion shocked the whole area and it
killed nine Palestinian women and children and it was overnight. It's very difficult to keep your emotional balance under those ever-deferring situations.
And to be honest, I cried in those days more than I cried my whole life. Sometimes I cry
two or three times a day when you feel the pain of the people, when you see the bereavement that has been caused by that ongoing bombardment, ongoing escalation.
However, I still have that belief that this time will pass and better times are expected.
And that because we have no other choice but to clutch to hope,
because if you lose hope, you lose everything.
You lose your purpose in life.
To clutch to hope.
Because if you lose hope, you lose everything.
You lose your purpose in life.
Sometimes when you see people dying,
when you see people bidding farewell for their dears,
when you see the homes destroyed, it's very difficult for you to stay hopeful, to keep the hope alive.
But I think we, the Palestinians, have no other option
but to continue and to live on this land because we have no other option but to continue and to live on this land because we
have no other choice but to live and to try to stay strong. Akram, I really appreciate you
speaking to us today and for your insight and your reporting. Please stay safe.
Thank you very much. All the best. You too.
That's all for today. I'm Elaine Chao. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.