Front Burner - Meghan Markle, the monarchy, and racism

Episode Date: March 9, 2021

After a bombshell interview between Oprah and Meghan Markle watched by millions around the world, culture writer Kovie Biakolo discusses the revelations in the interview, and the issue of racism in the royal family.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I've advocated for so long for women to use their voice, and then I was silent. Were you silent or were you silenced? The latter. So it trended worldwide Sunday night. You know what I'm talking about.

Meghan Markle's bombshell interview with Oprah Winfrey about her experiences with the royal family. More than 17 million people in the U.S. alone tuned in. Like them or not, people are still intrigued with the British monarchy. I'm Jamie Poisson, and today, culture writer Kovie Biakolo joins me to discuss Meghan's revelations in the interview and for a bigger look at race and the role of the monarchy today. Hi, Kovye. Thanks so much for being here. Hi, how are you doing? Good, good. Thank you. So that was quite an interview on Sunday night. Hey,

what was going through your mind as you watched it? I thought they revealed way more than I thought they were going to. So that was surprising. And then I thought it was quite interesting how they brought up the racist and racialized moments, how both her and Harry did. racist and racialized moments, how both her and Harry did, there was a part of me that wondered prior to the interview, would they not downplay it? Just because that then becomes a very contentious, very tricky subject for the monarchy to try and navigate. Right, right. And there were some pretty significant revelations in the interview, like this one. So we have in tandem the conversation of he won't be given security,

he's not going to be given a title, and also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he's born. What? Megan said that Harry was asked by a member of the family about the skin tone of their unborn baby. And what did you think when you heard that? To be quite honest, I know this is a cynical perspective, but it's also an honest one. I was not surprised. It's a function of colorism that, you know, is derived from racism. And that happens where people want to know what color the child is going to be. Is the child going to be, in their minds, light enough? And so

there is a deep colorism perspective to that sort of thinking. And I was also not surprised that Harry and Meghan didn't go into detail about who it was, because I think that if they did, I think that that person or those people would have a really, really difficult time moving forward with the British public because there's no way around that one.

You know, Britain is a society that manages to worm its way out of racist conversations, despite literally building a legacy of colonization imperialism for centuries. It worms its way out of conversations all the time. But I think had Harry and Meghan named names, I think they're definitely protecting somebody there who maybe they want to maintain a relationship with. Probably worth noting, Oprah mentioned on Monday, you and I were talking Monday, that Prince Harry did tell her.

He did not share the identity with me, but he wanted to make sure that I knew. And if I had an opportunity to share it, that it was not his grandmother, mother, nor his grandfather that were a part of those conversations. You know, this allegation about the skin tone, it came with a couple of other revelations that I want to talk to you about. Megan told Oprah that she was told that her son Archie would not be given the title of prince, nor the security that goes with that. I mean, this is a child of color being born into this centuries old institution. And to hear that he wouldn't get this title and the security, that was very surprising to me it sounded quite hostile i think it is definitely hostile but this is the moment i have to sort of pause and you know put ourselves in the larger context we are really talking about the monarchy and we're talking about a child not getting a title yes right i i do feel

a bit silly sometimes talking about a baby and whether or not he'll be named a prince. And I know that, you know, there's several layers to this conversation. But I do want us to realize when we're talking about the monarchy, we have to put it in the context we are talking about the social construction at the end of the day, aren't we? And so there is something laughable about us sitting here being horrified by the fact that this child is not going to get this title of prince. And that is one layer of the conversation, yes. But the other layer of the conversation is that that child is not getting this because of the heritage of the child, because of the mother's heritage, because of the association to Blackness, to African ancestry. And I think for me, I was saddened. But again, I was not surprised. You know, there's been a lot of shock. And I think I'm coming off as a sinist, but I'm sort of familiar with the reality of Britain and British racism. And so for me, I was just not very surprised by all the

revelations. I mean, I guess I would want to know, did people imagine that the royal family were, you know, as they are today, that that legacy of colonialism, of imperialism, of racism, is that all of a sudden distinguished because we're in the modern era? I don't think so. But is it not reasonable to think that members of this family or that the institution has in some way evolved with the times here? I don't think it's unreasonable to think the institution has evolved. the times here? I don't think it's unreasonable to think the institution has evolved. I do think it's unreasonable to think that the institution has evolved to the point in which both overt and covert acts of racism don't affect people of colour, like Meghan, who are within or was within the royal family or the British public at large due to what the royal family and the monarchy represents. This wouldn't happen if it wasn't for her skin

colour. If it was Kate Middleton it wouldn't have gone this far. Talking about how their son, about how their skin colour was, was like reallyful to a lot of people, to be honest, especially because I'm black as well. I think what has sort of been the standard attitude of Britain historically, and I would even trace this as far back as to Britain sort of positioning themselves as among the first to end slavery among the European imperialists. I think I could trace that attitude of them not seeing themselves as racist because they're always covering up for the reality of their history. And so this attitude of, we're not that racist.

How can you not be that racist? The Commonwealth exists for a reason. And the wealth isn't common. The wealth was built on the back of Britain's imperialism. And so we just supposedly celebrated the Commonwealth this weekend. Welcome to Westminster Abbey on the eve of Commonwealth Day. As we celebrate the friendship, spirit of unity and achievements of the Commonwealth, we have an opportunity to reflect on a time like no other.

And I was laughing at it. And even again, thinking about how Harry and Meghan were talking about how they were going to be traveling through the Commonwealth. I'm like, there is a bit of a dissonance there. And I think there's a dissonance that the monarchy has that the British public who supports the monarchy that they have, they don't understand that that is a vestige of imperialism. And that vestige of imperialism is associated with racism. Right. So are you saying essentially, you know, even on Meghan's part, you think that there was a bit of a dissonance there while she was part of the royal family? Absolutely. I think that, again, and I think it's really important to stress that

what Harry and Meghan went through is abominable, just from a very familial perspective of being treated like that by your family, just from your family. But, you know, we're in an era where we have a show like The Crown, and The Crown is just the tip of the iceberg. But it shows that the institution of a monarchy is bigger than any one person. It's bigger than the people who occupy the position. If I may offer two pieces of advice, watch out for your family. They mean well. No, they don't.

no they don't and so what i'm saying is that for megan for her to kind of go in there and not understand that she has essentially hitched her wagon to an imperialist institution and think she's just going there to do some good and to do some service i mean that's certainly part of the job but what else is it attached to and where does that serve as that idea of service what else is it related to i don't think she thought very deeply about that and that is what is so funny in all of this i'm like this was a light very light-skinned biracial woman with Black heritage who was willing to sort of attach herself to that. And the monarchy could not even shift just a little bit. And the media, which has this machined relationship with the monarchy, they couldn't shift just a little bit to accept somebody like her,

Shift just a little bit to accept somebody like her, who is literally the most palatable person of color you can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing.

In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, talking about Megan's treatment by the media, it came up a lot in Oprah's interview. And can you remind our listeners about how she was treated by the media, particularly the tabloid media in the UK? brilliant article by BuzzFeed News, Ellie Hall, and she put together this article, I believe it was last year, that shows the difference between Kate Middleton and Meghan Markle's headlines in the tabloids. I mean, they were associating, and I always bring up this example, they were associating Meghan's favorite fruit with human rights abuses that's the avocado right yeah yes

with when it was Kate it was a wonderful fruit headline one Kate's morning sickness cure Prince William gifted with an avocado for pregnant duchess headline number two Megan Markle's beloved avocado linked to human rights abuse and drought. There was a lot of comparison between how each of them, and Oprah brought this up as well, how Meghan was holding her baby bump. When it was Kate's baby bump, it was a beautiful thing. Kate was praised for cradling her baby bump, and the headline about you doing the same thing said,

Meghan can't keep hands off her baby bump for pride or vanity. What does it have to do with pride or vanity? There is obviously the direct remarks of, you know, people saying stuff about her being on the, from the wrong tracks of LA, in terms of being in Compton, people making racialized comments about... I think what has really, really upset the British public is that Meghan Markle, who many people consider is only, you know, five clicks up from trailer trash. Things like that are absolutely racialized. But, you know, even within that example, I want to be very clear. Let's not revise history. Kate Middleton did not have an easy time in the press either.

Middleton has been criticized for her failure to get a real job and has been portrayed as hanging around, waiting for her prince to pop the question. Waitie Katie has stuck with her and it's a nickname that she absolutely despises. Right, and neither did Diana, Harry's mom, right? The princess said today that when she started public life, she realised that newspapers would scrutinise her activities intensely. But I was not aware of how overwhelming that attention would become. None of them had an easy time at all.

But what is so clear in Meghan's case is that there is a racial element to this that doesn't go away. Right. And one thing that both Megan and Harry brought up in the interview with Oprah was that they were hurt and surprised that the royal family, Buckingham Palace, that they didn't speak up for Megan, that they didn't stand up for her, defend her, even when they defended other members of the royal family. That I came to understand that not only was I not being protected, but that they were willing to lie to protect other members of the family, but they weren't willing to tell the truth to protect me and my husband.

Even though this went unspoken, I couldn't help but think of Prince Andrew and how Buckingham Palace put out statements defending him over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Prince Andrew denied he ever saw his former friend with underage girls in a pointed and detailed interview with the BBC. Do I regret the fact that he has quite obviously conducted himself in a manner unbecoming? Yes. Unbecoming? He was a sex offender? Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm being polite in the sense that he was a sex offender.

I think it strikes a lot of people as a double standard. I think with the allegations against Prince Andrew, I think for me it shows very clearly what the monarchy is willing to defend versus what it is not when it comes to allegations. And I think it very much has to do with the fact that no matter what Meghan gave up, no matter what she had to do to become a part of this family, she was inevitably an outsider. You know, given everything that we've talked about, you know, it sounds like you're saying

there's like a big missed opportunity here on the part of the monarchy and in the media, even given everything that we've talked about. Do you think that the monarchy can really live on in the 21st century? I said as a missed opportunity because even if the press and the monarchy had accepted Megan into the fold that would have been sort of like what people do when they accept you know the one palatable person of color that they find in any organization and then try to pretend that the organization is revolutionary because of that. What is the opportunity there? It would have been an opportunity for continuing a facade, perhaps. Maybe that's the opportunity for the monarchy that's been missed.

But for the British public, certainly for the Black British public, the British public who are people of color, it's not really a missed opportunity at all. I take your point. And on the question of can they actually really live on in the 21st century? I mean, can they? I think that's a difficult question to answer. There's a part of me that thinks, you know, when you're dealing with an old god, when you're dealing with institutions that are really, really old, that plan centuries ahead for their existence to still be in power centuries ahead. this interview isn't going to be what takes the monarchy down, if that's what people are expecting. I think they're going to be very disappointed in a couple of weeks when everybody gets over it. But I do think that there is an opportunity here for more examination from the British public and from the former Commonwealth nations. And so whenever the British public, majority of the British public

realizes or comes to terms with the monarchy's lack of utility and comes to the terms with that they do not have to be defined by this institution. British identity doesn't have to be defined by this institution. I think that that's when we might see some changes, but we're asking a lot of Britain here. We're asking British people to undo and upend the very thing that is tied to the essence of who they are, and that is the monarchy. Kovie, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. I hope I didn't talk too much and was doing too much with what I was saying.

No, I could have this conversation with you all day, really. No, I appreciate it. It was very good. all right so before we go today it's worth noting that as of monday night buckingham palace despite requests for comment had not released any statements in response to megan and harry's blockbuster interview. That is all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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