Front Burner - Money, sex, and populism: The life of Silvio Berlusconi

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

This week, Silvio Berlusconi died at the age of 86. He served as Italy’s prime minister three separate times, leaving a permanent mark on the country’s politics, media, and culture. Berlusconi created an empire for himself, based on money, sex and a willingness to push legal limits — and in many ways, he created a template for billionaire populist political leaders. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts On this episode, Alexander Stille, professor of journalism at Columbia University and the author of The Sack of Rome: How a Beautiful European Country with a Fabled History and a Storied Culture Was Taken Over by a Man named Silvio Berlusconi, discusses how Berlusconi changed Italy and the world.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Soroja Coelho. Italy's 86-year-old former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi died on Monday. Yesterday, the divisive leader was laid to rest in a state funeral. Thousands of people showed up outside the Gothic Duomo Cathedral in Milan.

Some chanted and others were waving flags. Inside the cathedral, hundreds mourned. Berlusconi rose to prominence as a dominant media mogul in Italy. He had a penchant for showmanship and he tested legal boundaries. In his political career, which was marred by criminal charges and scandal, Berlusconi demonstrated how a billionaire can ride a tide of populism, a path other world leaders would later follow. My guest today has been keeping a close eye on Berlusconi for years. Alexander Stille is a professor of journalism at Columbia University, and he's the author

of several books, including The Sack of Rome, How a Beautiful European Country with a Fabled History and a Storied Culture was Taken Over by a Man Named Silvio Berasconi. Hi, Alexander. Hi. So not really a surprise that Belasconi's funeral would be a dramatic event. That feels like a satisfying last scene from the soap opera that has been the long story of his life. He was really one of the most flamboyant politicians in living memory, immensely, immensely powerful. I think it would be fair to say that he built an empire, but how did he do it?

Well, it starts with real estate. And so Berlusconi was the son of a middle-class family in Northern Italy, and his father worked for a local bank. And the owner of that bank and his father bankrolled his first real estate venture. And he succeeded in selling those houses in his telling by convincing a government official by sleeping with the official secretary. He was able to convince this person to buy a lot of apartments. And this was his first success. But the thing that really put him on the map as a major real estate mogul was a very ambitious real estate development called Milano Due, which is Milan 2, basically a satellite city outside of Milan and the outskirts of Milan

that was an enormous sort of suburban subdivision gated community in a kind of American style, something that didn't exist in Italy at the time. A self-contained city on the outskirts for 15,000 people. No cars, all facilities and its own TV station. And Berlusconi's great coup was in buying land that was devalued because it was located underneath the flight path of one of the two Milan airports and the deafening sound made the land look like a rather bad prospect for housing development. He succeeded in convincing

the government in Rome to reroute the airplanes. That project wouldn't have been possible had they not waged a successful political battle to get the air routes rerouted. He then turns his eye to television. How did that unfold and what did he have on the air? Well, what's interesting is he first started it as a kind of benefit to the people in Milano Due, a kind of private cable system which would offer limited programming to the people, the thousands of people living in this sort of satellite village. And then he realized that there was more potential than that. In the early to mid-1970s, the state TV company, RAI, had a monopoly on television. And in the mid-1970s, Italy's high court said it would be okay to broadcast private TV on a local basis, but not on a national basis. And so Berlusconi said, wow,

okay, I'm going to jump into this. State TV was very staid and very sober at the time, and Berlusconi understood that there was a kind of enormous untapped market for the kind of things that people really wanted to watch but weren't allowed to watch. Motorcycle messengers delivered pre-recorded cassettes of the same programs to all his little stations so they could be broadcast simultaneously, bypassing the monopoly of the government stations. But why did it do so well at that moment in time? What was happening in Italy that made this kind of TV? People seemed to have an almost ravenous hunger for what Berlusconi was offering? Well, there are two parts to it that I think are really important to understand.

Number one, the 1970s in Italy were a period of exhausting political conflict, massive worker strikes. People were sick of politics and ideology and ready for a return to normal life. People wanted to enjoy themselves. Italy was becoming a wealthy country and people were sick of being told that that was a bad thing. And Berlusconi was there ready to tell them, no, it's actually a good thing. And Berlusconi

understood that the real money to be made in TV to make it profitable was by selling advertising nationally. And so they started buying up local stations and selling advertising, promising a national market. But then he would try and get around the law by broadcasting things like a few seconds apart so that he could say, no, this was a local program. It wasn't a national program, but the advertising was being sold nationally. He also had no sort of illusions about television as an educational tool or a diffuser of culture. He did things... What did he think it was?

He thought it was a vehicle for selling advertising. He thought it was a way to make money. That makes some of the shows make sense. I mean, he chose shows like Baywatch and Dynasty. He really went for stuff that was really titillating. Absolutely. He bought entire libraries of American TV shows, often, you know, you know, pretty trashy popular ones. Women clearly, particularly young women, were already a part of his economic model there, right from the beginning. He saw opportunity there as well. Can you tell us about the game shows that he used to air?

I think you're right that sex has always been very central to the Berlusconi TV and to also Berlusconi's presentation of himself as a businessman. He would brag openly about his sexual conquests and his TV shows were unapologetically, you know, you would probably call them misogynistic. Lots of the entertainment shows would have this figure called the Velina, which was a kind of scantily cloud young woman that would simply stand there silently next to, you know, whoever else was presenting entertainment or information. And then he also invented what I think might be the first TV striptease game show, something called Copo Grosso, which I could never really understand the rules of. But

the one thing that was clear was that by the end of the program, both the male and the female contestant would have their shirts off and be bare-breasted. Well, he was really rewriting the playbook on what was acceptable on television. And I guess you could say an extension of that is that he was helping to redefine social norms. I mean, the contrast is the part that's always been so interesting for me. You've got the religious backdrop of Italian Catholicism, and then this television that is so bubbly and bright, lots of flesh, lots of nudity. Right. It kind of blows your mind a little bit. Right. Well, I think that one of the things that's most important about Berlusconi

is that he understood he needed to change the culture of Italy, first to make his television successful, and then to make his political career successful. Berlusconi, as you described, had built this vast empire, so media, real estate, finance. At some point, he even purchased a soccer team. But what was the moment when he turned to politics? Well, I think there are two things. I mean, you mentioned the soccer team, and that's not unimportant. He buys AC Milan. And he literally becomes the president. He's the president of Milan, and fans adore him. And that,

I think, went to his head. So that's one thing that gave him enormous name recognition after the other, they resign, they're indicted. His main political protector, who was socialist leader Bettino Craxi, actually flees the country. And Berlusconi realizes that he is now suddenly alone and very, very vulnerable. The investigation in Milan into corruption is getting closer and closer to Berlusconi's own company. Berlusconi knows that there are many, many, many bribes that his company has made, along with lots of other people, that will eventually be found out. And he decides, with typical boldness, I'm not just going to wait

for this to happen. I'm going to go on the counterattack and I'm going to take over the political system myself. Then staged a takeover of Italian politics, forming a new movement, Forza Italia. Berlusconi promised lower taxes, fewer controls on business, and used his TV stations to ram home his message. Yeah, boldness is the right word. Boldness and incredible confidence. I wonder how much of that played into who he became publicly, because the extra piece here isn't just the wealth and the political connections and that sense of confidence, but also this incredible, I think globally, everybody got to see a little of that charm and that charisma.

How did that play out as he rose to power in politics? You know, what Berlusconi was doing and what he was selling in politics was Berlusconi. There was no real coherent political program. There was a kind of general kind of free market ideology, but it wasn't particularly coherent. What he said sometimes even openly, as he liked to refer to himself in the third person, he said, what Italy needs is more Berlusconi. When he addresses the Italian nation and announces that he is running for prime minister, he presents himself in the study of his luxurious 18th century villa. It looked like a presidential

address that an American president might broadcast from the White House. It's as if he was already prime minister. You know, there's a kind of fake it till you make it quality about it. But he would present things as being certain that were not yet, in fact, happening. But by doing so, he would then make them happen. What an amazing formula for success. And it really didn't take long. He didn't have to fake it for very long, because by 1994, just months after he decides he's going into politics, he's the prime minister of Italy. Yeah. No, I think it was one of the most brilliant political campaigns anybody's run in recent history.

Well, how would you describe those early years in power? Well, I think the early years in power were very difficult because the corruption investigation was now reaching Berlusconi, his brother, and the top executives in his company. And so there was initial paralysis. Berlusconi tried to pass a law that would basically decriminalize corporate bribery. That became a scandal. The government fell, and he lost in a re-election bid. Then he comes back into power in 2001. So initially, it's very rocky. Berlusconi, in general, was always at his best when he was in

opposition, and not very good when he was in power. I've definitely heard that critique before. People have said that he had huge impact on the social perceptions of Italy and everyday culture, but that he wasted a lot of his political time, his time in power in really petty fights and battles with the press, with the courts, and that things would easily fall apart. Yeah. And I think he unfortunately was not interested in the kind of often dull, hard work of government of, for example, making the Italian economy better and more efficient. You know, he came into power promising that he would be an economic miracle worker, that

he would be an Italian Margaret Thatcher who would cut away bureaucracy, red tape. And what people didn't understand was that Berlusconi's presence in so many important industries in Italy made it virtually impossible that he would ever do that because it would have meant opening up his own companies to competition, which he had no intention of doing. And so unfortunately, his time in government was marked by great energy around the two issues that really interested him, which was regulation of media and criminal justice, because he wanted to keep himself and his close associates out of prison. But as for the rest of it, it was very, very indifferent and poor governance.

And as a result, Italy really stagnated economically during his time in power. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%.

That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So let's cast our gaze beyond the borders of Italy. You've given us such a good picture of what was happening at home, but he also was a vibrant and engaged politician and built relationships with many different politicians, including Gaddafi. He started to build relationships with Putin, and that one becomes very interesting because the relationship with Vladimir Putin lasted for decades. Yes, it's a very strange thing, and I don't know that we understand the full extent of it,

but it's really interesting. Clearly, Berlusconi kind of admired the strong man in power. Vladimir Putin is an exceptional leader. I am linked to him by a fraternal friendship. amicizia fraterna a lui. Berlusconi goes off to take a shower, he says to the woman, here, you stay in Putin's bed. And this woman being a prostitute and a tough business, records the entire thing. So we actually have Berlusconi's voice saying this. So she's waiting in Putin's bed. What does that mean? Is this the bed that Putin stayed in when he visited Berlusconi? Is it a bed that Putin gave to Berlusconi for purposes like this? I have no idea. But it suggests a kind of intimate relationship, which we don't really understand. So that's one very kind of weird thing. But meanwhile, there were other relationships that were more antagonistic. From 2007,

for about a decade, I lived in Berlin. I was a correspondent there. And I remember a very fraught relationship between Silvio Berlusconi and, at the time, I think she kind of placed herself as the matriarch of the European Union, Angela Merkel. What was that relationship like? They were not a match made in heaven. Do you have a particular problem with Angela Merkel? Is it true you called her an un-f***able lard-ass? I have never insulted anyone in 20 years of politics. serious person. And so they weren't meant to get along. And the time when you jumped out from behind a monument and went cuckoo to Angela Merkel, that was just a joke, was it? She enjoyed it. I explained why I did the cuckoo thing.

There's a comparison that comes up quite often, especially recently with Donald Trump. And I know that that Berlusconi might not have been so fond of being seen as a sort of proto Trump, or the early billionaire populist leader and setting a template for what would follow. But I'm wondering how you see it. When you take a comparison of Donald Trump and Silvio Berlusconi, what do you find most striking in that? What I find most striking is this, the kind of extraordinary interclass appeal of an enormously rich man. As you said, he was a billionaire populist, he was a plutocrat with a kind of common touch. They're both figures who purposefully flouted

traditional norms, engaged in transgressive behavior and language, weren't afraid of being vulgar, talking about their sex lives. And if I sometimes see a beautiful girl, I say, better to like girls than to be gay. I have to bring you some greetings from a man. What is his name? Just a minute, it was someone with a tan. Barack Obama. And these things, which to traditional politicians and media people seemed like enormous mistakes, actually validated both Berlusconi and later Trump with their public. These were seen as signs of authenticity. OK, he may not play by the rules, but I kind of like that because he's one of us. He's not a traditional politician.

But there was this mystique that had then been built around Berlusconi. The tabloid tales then turned to his marriages, to his affairs. Did that ever hurt him politically? Not too much. I think at a certain point, by the time we got to 2010, 2011, 2012, it had begun to kind of wear on people. It's one thing to have, you know, slept with a lot of beautiful women outside of your marriage. But a very strange thing happened, which is that Berlusconi turned up at the 18th birthday party of a young woman nobody ever heard of in a small town outside of Naples. He was supposed to go to a major meeting

in Naples. The entire armada of bulletproof cars is diverted to end up in this small town at this girl's birthday party. And everybody's wondering, like, who is this young woman and what's going on here? Turned out this young woman, while she was still a minor, had been a guest at Berlusconi's villa, blah, blah, blah. She's giving interviews about how she'd like to be in parliament. And then Berlusconi's wife reacts with enormous disapproval and says, this is like way too far. So Berlusconi's wife divorces him, second wife that is. And then you start hearing stories about these Bunga Bunga parties. Maybe we could just pause there for a second and let folks know what the Bunga Bunga parties were.

Well, basically what began to emerge is that people began telling stories of these parties where there might be as many as 15 or 20 women and only Berlusconi and maybe one other man. And they would have a grand, raucous time. and they would have a grand, raucous time and people might do a little striptease and make some jokes and engage in kind of light sex play. Basically, call girls being hired to perform at these after-dinner parties

in the so-called Bunga Bunga room where some of them, for instance, dressed up as Obama and engaged in sort of semi-erotic fondling of one another. Describing Berlusconi's so-called Bunga Bunga parties, she said a young woman danced while dressed as a nun and stripped for the then prime minister. And then eventually Berlusconi would choose one of the women and, you know, spend the night with her. This is where the beginning of the end sort of starts in the press, at least, because that's how we get the story of him being with a minor.

Alleged to have had sex with an underage woman, a 17-year-old Moroccan dancer named Ruby Hartsteeler. It's alleged to have happened during a so-called Bunga Bunga party. to have happened during a so-called Bunga Bunga party. Police in Milan arrest a young Moroccan woman who's 17 on a theft charge. And while she's in police custody, they get a phone call from Berlusconi, who's on an official business in Paris. Berlusconi then tells the police they must release this woman because she is the niece of Egyptian

president Hosni Mubarak, which is a complete fabrication. This story then emerges and Berlusconi is then indicted on engaging in sex with a minor. This leads to a couple of trials. Berlusconi is acquitted because the judge rules that he couldn't have known that she was a minor. But it's a huge scandal. It really seems to be a turning point. I mean, he faced trial more than 30 times over the course of his career. And the charges range from a variety of things you've described. You know, we've got bribing judges and abuse of office, this case with this minor.

But only one charge sticks, that 2013 conviction for tax fraud. He was sometimes found guilty in lower courts, but used Italy's tortuous legal system to ensure he never went to jail. Sentenced to prison for tax fraud in 2013, he did community service with dementia patients instead. And that did eventually bar him from holding office for six years, which didn't mean he wasn't present and commenting on politics all the time. But why is it that the case of this 17 year old seems to tarnish that almost infallible popularity? Well, it's important to realize that

while Berlusconi was only convicted in a definitive way in one case, he was convicted multiple times at trial, but Italy's statute of limitation laws allowed him to slip through the net of justice. They were not really acquittals. He was let off on technicalities. It's interesting because one thing that's really emerged as you're speaking is a way of seeing the women around him as either mothers or women to be used to serve him in some ways. Is that an unfair way of describing it? No, I think it's the classic Madonna and whore dichotomy. Berlusconi's mother is the Madonna, and the women who are in the stable are the whores. To answer your question about the shadow that it cast,

what was interesting is that while the whole Ruby heart stealer, that's the Moroccan teenager, that story is playing out, Italy is struggling with the financial crisis created by the 2009 financial meltdown. And the Italian treasury bond is becoming, the interest rates on that are going higher and higher. And the lack of confidence in Berlusconi and the fact that he is completely distracted by these various scandals and appears to be such a reckless and unserious person causes the bond markets to just go berserk. Interest rates are reaching a point where Italy was at threat of defaulting. And so it was essentially the markets that said, we cannot stand having this person in power for one day longer. And he had to resign. It's so interesting what you're describing, because he did at some point have such a hold

on Italian minds through all of that television ownership, through this constant domination in the headlines. And what you're describing is that the culture shifted and he wasn't ready for where it was going to go. Well, and he also really became unmoored from reality. The idea that you could carry on in this way, have these parties, you know, in like the presidential palace with dozens of women and get away with it all, showed that he had really sort of lost his sense of reality in a very fundamental way. You know, power does very strange things to people.

As Berlusconi is laid to rest, Alexander, what in your view is his lasting legacy? Well, I think that Berlusconi inevitably, you know, has created a personality driven politics. And, you know, someone like Maloney has a strong personality and therefore dominates the scene, not exactly in the way that Berlusconi did, but with a certain force. I don't know that he really has left a lasting political legacy in typical fashion. that he really has left a lasting political legacy in typical fashion. He would never choose a successor because he never wanted to admit that he could die or disappear. And so his party is likely to crumble behind him. So I don't know that he will have a lasting legacy politically. He has a lasting legacy culturally. Thank you so much, Alexander. My pleasure.

That's it for today. I'm Soroja Coelho. This has been FrontBurner. I'll see you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.