Front Burner - Mystery at Canada’s highest security virus lab

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

Questions still surround why two scientists were marched out of a Winnipeg lab in 2019, and why they’re being investigated by the RCMP. But the story has links to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and many experts suspect Chinese espionage. Now, pressure is mounting on the federal government to explain.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. So in the summer of 2019, two scientists, a husband and a wife, were marched out of Canada's highest security lab, the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg.

And they were stripped of their security clearance and they were later fired. They're also under investigation by the RCMP, although no charges have been laid. There are so many questions in this story that remain unanswered, but some experts suspect it could point to Chinese espionage. This issue is really heating up in Parliament right now. Lots of MPs are demanding more information from the Canadian government, especially because the story has ties to the now infamous Wuhan Institute of Virology. CBC News national reporter Karen Pauls broke this story two years ago and has been updating it ever since.

And she's joining me today to help unravel what we know so far about this mystery. Hey, Karen, thanks so much for coming on to the podcast. Hey, thanks for inviting me. It's great to have you. So to start off, who are these two scientists and what kind of work were they doing at the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg? Right, so we know that Jiang Gou Chu and Kering Cheng are a couple. We don't know their status in Canada, whether they're Canadian citizens or permanent residents. We do know that Dr. Chu is a medical doctor from China. She came to Canada for some graduate studies in 1996

and started at the University of Manitoba. But then about a decade later in 2006, she started working at the National Lab as a research scientist. And over time, she became head of what's called the Vaccine Development and Antiviral Therapy Section the special pathogens program. That's the level four area of the lab. And Jamie, she's a bit of a superstar. She was part of the team that helped develop ZMAP, a treatment for the Ebola virus, and saved so many lives in Africa during the whole Ebola outbreak. Now, Chung, her husband, is a biologist. We don't know a lot about him, but his

research does include infectious diseases like HIV and SARS and E. coli infections and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Right. And, you know, you talked about ZMAP. I believe Dr. Chu and her colleague actually won a Governor General's Award for this, right? They did. And it's kind of striking to watch her accepting that and talking about that. She's so proud of that work. And she just sounds like a bright, leading scientist, the kind of person that we want to have in our labs and the kind of person we want to give lots of opportunities and to hear their successes from. This is the first Ebola outbreak that is managed by our vaccine and our treatment, ZMF, which both developed in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. So we're really thankful to all Canadians

for their support. All Canadians should be proud of this success. Okay, so that's Dr. Chu and her husband, Chung. And then this Winnipeg lab, you mentioned that it's level four. It's certified to deal with deadly diseases like Ebola. I understand not only is it the only one in Canada that's certified level four, but there actually are a ton of these labs in the world, right? So these two scientists had to have really high security clearance just to work there. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there are only about 50 level four labs in the world. There are only four in the US. And then this one in Winnipeg is

the only one in Canada. And anyone working there needs at least a secret security clearance. And Jamie, that means anyone, including summer students and custodians, they need a secret security clearance. And that process involves a review by CSIS and the RCMP that goes back like a decade, 10 years. Anyone working with human pathogens and toxins also has to have additional special clearance to do that as well. And Dr. Chu had both.

So that indicates that at some point she was cleared to do that as well. And Dr. Chu had both. So that indicates that at some point, she was cleared to do that. Okay, so there is still so much mystery surrounding this story. Why Chung and Chu, these highly celebrated scientists and a group of Chu students were all evicted from this lab. Why the two scientists were eventually fired and why they're being investigated by the RCMP, even though no charges have been laid. There is a lot to unravel here. But let's talk about something you were able to confirm last year that seems pretty significant. And that is about a package that Chu sent to China a few months before she and her husband were

escorted from the lab. And what was in the package and where was it going? Okay, so this shipment was one of the first tips I got on this story. And actually, there are still rumors that there was more than one shipment. But this one involved Ebola and Hennepin viruses, live viruses. So I filed an access to information request, and I got back hundreds of pages of documents, mostly heavily redacted. But I did learn about the process of sending these viruses to Wuhan. It took months. And there was a lot of back and forth about who had requested it,

the fact that we'd never worked with these people before. So there was some reassurances that had to be made about who they were and whether we could trust them. But finally, we learned that live Ebola and Hennepin viruses were sent on an Air Canada flight to Beijing. And since then, we've learned that from Beijing, they ended up at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Huh. Like an Air Canada fight with other people on it? Yeah. A regular commercial flight.

Wow. That is an interesting piece of information. All right. So, look, you mentioned the Wuhan lab. And I know that the conspiracy wheels start turning in lots of people's heads as soon as they hear that. The Wuhan lab, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, especially because more and more scientists do think that this theory that COVID originally leaked from that lab might actually be pretty credible. that lab might actually be pretty credible. Experts in the Biden administration are now actively considering the possibility it's part of a fresh investigation ordered by the White House. I have not reached a conclusion because our intelligence community is not certain yet.

The World Health Organization is preparing further studies into its origin, having previously said it was highly improbable to have come from a lab. So just quickly, let's get something out of the way here. Were there any samples of any kind of coronavirus included in Dr. Chu's shipment on that, I guess, on that Air Canada flight? No, no, absolutely not. In that access request, I got the full list of all the viruses that were sent and there were no coronaviruses. And I followed up again several times with the public health agency to ask that question. And the answer consistently is no.

Okay. What has Choose Employer, the public health agency of Canada, said about the shipment that went to China? And does it have to do with why the couple was fired and why they're being investigated now by the RCMP? Well, Jamie, officials and the health minister have said repeatedly that that shipment and Chu's eviction from the lab are not connected. At the time, the public health agency told me this kind of sharing is normal and all the approvals and paperwork were in place. Since then, in the last two years, other questions have been raised, of course. We're not getting a lot of good answers, but they do keep saying that the shipment and the eviction and the eventual firing are not connected.

Okay, and so then tell me what those other questions that have been raised. So like you mentioned, the Public Health Agency of Canada saying this was all kosher, this was completely above board, all approvals that were needed, they had them. But I know that you've spoken to sources who aren't convinced that this was necessarily the case and why not? Well, you know, from the very beginning, and this story came about as a result of a tip from a source inside the lab that was verified by several others. They told me this shipment may have circumvented some of the lab's operating procedures. So, for example, there have always been questions about whether Dr. Chu didn't do enough to protect Canada's intellectual property rights. So there was a

document that would have done that, which was missing in this shipment. Officials have since said that it wasn't a problem, that most of the things covered were covered under other documents, but that's always been a question. Was it an intellectual property rights issue? But people just don't believe the public health agency when it says the firing and the eviction are not connected to the shipment, because that shipment triggered an internal investigation and triggered an RCMP investigation. So, you know, that's just one really good question that nobody seems, well, that we don't have answers for. I'm sure the Public Health Agency does, but we don't. Okay, weird, weird. And I know we're going to come back

to intellectual property in a minute or so. But first, another thing we know for sure is that this wasn't the only exchange Dr. Chu had with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. And if you could just go over for me, what other kinds of connections did she have to this lab? Right. Well, I actually requested her travel documents for trips made in the years leading up to all of this. And I found she made at least five trips to China between 2017 and 2018. And one of them was to train scientists and technicians at China's newly certified level four lab in Wuhan. And those trips were paid for by a third party. That information was censored. So I still don't know who it was. But even that, some people tell me, may have broken some of the rules for the public, you know, that the public

health agency has about accepting money or gifts or compensation from outside sources. So that's still a question I've asked and haven't gotten an answer to. Okay. And I just also want to be clear about something else here. Like the fact that she would send samples of Ebola to this lab at Wuhan, that's not totally out of the ordinary, right? Like it's also one of these rare level four labs. Right. And it was just getting certified and established as a level four labs. Right. And it was just getting certified and established as a level

four lab. So she helped them do that through training and also sharing pathogens with them. They needed to, you know, build up their collection of these viruses. And the public health agency has said, you know what, we around the world, we share viruses and we share information. And in fact, China shared information about the coronavirus early on in the pandemic so that scientists around the world could sequence it and get a sense of what they were dealing with. Interesting. So, look, like, even still, I understand there are still a number of security experts who say that this story raises the possibility of Chinese espionage, right? Christian Leuprecht, Royal Military College

and Queen's University. This needs to be a wake-up call for Canada about how aggressive the Chinese have become at infiltrating Western institutions for their political, economic and national security benefits. And why do they have those suspicions then? Well, I mean, the shipment, the RCMP investigation, the firing, the lack of answers means lots of unanswered questions. We do know that China sends scientists and business people into other countries to gather information or even just to be in place in case they're needed at some point in the future. And Jamie, have you ever heard of the Thousand Talents Program? I have not.

Okay, so it's a Chinese recruitment plan that attracts scientists with grants and other things that try to tie them back to China. And investigators in the U.S. say China has used this program to steal sensitive technology. And in the last few years, hundreds of Chinese scientists at American universities have kind of been rounded up and sent out of the country. Apparently there are, Mr. Brown, there are thousands of people who are intent, who are in this country that are intent on stealing technology. Is that right? I would say it's, we don't have an exact number in terms of our caseload,

but it's significant. Yes, sir. Now, we haven't heard much of that in Canada, but security experts wonder if it's just because we're not looking or we haven't found them yet, or maybe this is an example of that. And we've actually asked, you know, the Chinese government, if Dr. Chu is involved in their Thousand Talents program. We haven't gotten a good answer back, but it's a question. I understand part of the concern here also seems to be around Dr. Chu's collaborations

with the scientists who worked for the Chinese military. And what do we know about that? Yeah, right. So we know that Dr. Chu has a number of publications with a scientist affiliated with the Chinese military, the People's Liberation Army. Faihu Yan even spent time at the National Microbiology Lab. We don't know when, we don't know for how long or what Yan was doing there, but it does raise questions about what Yan would have had access to while at the lab. It raises questions about how the scientist even got into the lab, given the CSIS and RCMP screenings that are supposed to take place. And there seemed to be

some question about whether the Public Health Agency of Canada even knew about these affiliations with the the army and if they didn't know why not. Very curious. Okay I guess we should point out and this is important there are other people who think that there is absolutely no spying on going on here, though, right? Yeah. You know, we've been talking to over the years people who have worked with Dr. Chu and her husband, who are supporters, former colleagues who believe that, you know, she's been wronged here, that maybe this was a simple intellectual property dispute, and maybe she didn't know which forms needed to be filled out. And maybe she broke some rules or

circumvented a process, but it wasn't for sinister reasons. You know, Jamie, it would be great to talk to her at some point to hear her story or to get the whole story from the public health agency. But I'm not sure that will ever happen. We'll keep trying. And I know you've been trying. Do you know where she and her husband are right now? You know, no. She does own two homes in Winnipeg, and I visited them many times. One of them is being rented by some people who say they are international students and that they haven't seen Dr. Chu or her husband for a while. The last time, a couple weeks ago, I was at her primary residence. A neighbor told me that somebody comes to take care of the yard, but they haven't seen the scientists there for months.

There's some thought that they might be in Vancouver. We haven't found them there. The last time I've heard of them being spotted in public in Winnipeg was during Dr. Frank Plummer's memorial service a year ago, a year and a half ago, but no one seems to have seen them since then. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So, look, whether or not spying did happen in this case, is it fair to say that experts think this story raises concerns about how vulnerable Canada could be? Absolutely, yeah. The fact that, you know, there still is this ongoing RCMP investigation.

CSIS won't say it officially, but they are involved. And the fact that there have been, you know, military scientists from the People's Liberation Army inside that lab. It's not just theoretical. it is a vulnerable situation. And the Public Health Agency has said that security is a top priority, security of the building, security of IT, of people working in the building, people have gotten access to this lab that maybe shouldn't have, and that is raising questions. So it is probably not surprising that this story has become super politicized. Earlier this month, Conservative leader Erin O'Toole called for an investigation into the relationship between the Wuhan lab and the Winnipeg lab. This security breach and how the government of Mr. Trudeau is trying to hide the truth is deeply troubling.

Unfortunately, this cover-up should come as no surprise to Canadians. And he also said his party has questions about, quote, this apparent breach of protocol and the ongoing disconnect between Mr. Trudeau and the reality of the communist regime in Beijing. Conservative MP Michael Chong has also been asking a reality of the communist regime in Beijing. Conservative MP Michael Chong has also been asking a lot of questions in Parliament about this. He asked Minister of Health Patty Hajdu questions about it on Monday. Chinese military scientist Fei Yuyan of the People's Liberation Army was granted access to work in the government's Winnipeg lab. How did this individual gain access to the lab in apparent contravention of security policy?

Mr. Speaker, every step of this way, the National Microbiology Lab has been working so hard to protect Canadians through COVID-19. And another recent development is that Parliament recently passed a conservative motion demanding that the public health agency hand over documents related to this case. And so what is happening with that? Is there a sense that we're going to get some answers here or some more answers? That's a good, good, good question. You know, for months, that special parliamentary committee on Canada-China relations has been demanding answers. We need to know what the government of Canada was doing through the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg with respect to cooperating with the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan, China. That's why we need these documents. And the committee did get

redacted documents that look a lot actually like my access requests. So some answers... Lots of black? But lots of black, lots of censorship, lots of redacting. So yes, Parliament did pass a Conservative motion demanding that the Public Health Agency turn over those uncensored documents to that committee. But instead of sending them to the Canada-China Committee, they've sent them to a committee called the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. Now, that committee is made up of MPs that have top security clearance to review things like this. But the MPs on that committee are appointed by the Prime Minister. They serve at his pleasure. And the Prime Minister has the right to edit or redact or withhold anything the committee would release. So Chong, Michael Chong and some of the others are quite concerned that it is not the right committee to hold the government to account.

Okay, wow. Karen, thank you so much for this. This is such a kind of bizarre story with so many unanswered questions. So I hope that you can come back at some point and help us understand it even more. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.