Front Burner - On the front line of mass migration out of Sudan

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

After more than eight weeks of fighting, the power struggle between two rival military groups continues in Sudan. The conflict has turned the capital of Khartoum into a battleground. With hundreds of civilians killed and thousands wounded, people are migrating en masse to bordering countries in search of safety. Tens of thousands of people have headed southward into South Sudan, the world’s poorest nation. CBC News Foreign Correspondent Chris Brown spent several days at the border between the two countries. Today, he joins us to share what he learned from refugees and humanitarian workers about concerns the conflict’s spillover effects could destabilize an already vulnerable region. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Saroja Coelho. After more than eight weeks of fighting and several ceasefires, the conflict in Sudan continues. The country's capital, Khartoum, has become a battlefield as two rival military groups wrestle for control. The Sudanese Armed Forces and the Paramilitary Rapid Support Forces, or RSF, staged a coup in October of 2021, overthrowing the government. But tensions between the two groups became a

power struggle that has put civilians in the crosshairs of a vicious conflict. More than 800 civilians have been killed since the fighting broke out on April 15th, and thousands more have been wounded. Nearly 2 million people have been displaced from their homes, and some hundreds of thousands have been driven out of the country altogether in search of safety. One of those people who fled Sudan is Hafiz Mohammed Ali.

Because there is a lot of war there between army and damsel. One of those people who fled Sudan is Hafiz Mohammed Ali. Hafiz is one of many who've left Sudan for the neighboring country of South Sudan. How do you feel now that you've crossed the border? Now I'm very safe. This is, you know, I'm Sudanese. When I come here, I will be comfortable because this is my people all also South Sudanese. We are together. One people, one nation. But for many, the journey to safety and comfort is not so simple. My colleague, CBC News correspondent Chris Brown, spent several days at the border between the two countries. He joins me today to share what he heard from refugees and humanitarian workers

about how the conflict is spilling over and adding new pressure on an already fragile region. Hello, Chris. Oh, hello, and thank you for having me. Chris, I want to get into everything that you saw at the border, but before we do that, could you briefly bring me up to date? Has there been any progress made towards peace in Sudan since the violence erupted more than eight weeks ago? It really doesn't seem that way. You've got two warring generals, General al-Burhan and his rival, a warlord known as Hameti. They thought they were going to share power in Sudan.

In fact, the two men were even sitting down to have dinner not long before April 15th. And then they decided, no, they can't share, they can't work together. And in fact, they went to war with each other. So it's not quite a civil war, but it's almost a civil war. To the people on the ground, it probably feels like a civil war. And there have been all kinds of different efforts, some brokered by the Saudis. The Americans have been in there, too. The South Sudanese have been trying to add some pressure as well. And they seem to hold for a little bit, and then they kind of give away. And that really is the situation that we're dealing with now, especially in the capital Khartoum. You know, this is a very dense, a huge city.

A lot of the military infrastructure, the barracks and whatnot are in civilian areas, in residential areas. And each side is just firing at the other. In particular, the RSF, the Rapid Support Forces, they made some fairly early gains and they were able to take over large parts of the capital Khartoum. But, you know, it's really not clear how long they'll be able to hold them. There is some thought that as this war continues, that perhaps the army is going to regain its strength. And this is why each side thinks it can still win, and that's what's making

a ceasefire so problematic. You've given us a really good understanding of some of the political tectonic plate shift that we're seeing in Sudan. But in the early days of the conflict, we heard stories of shelling while civilians were hiding in their homes. So I want to turn to the human picture here. What kinds of conditions are people still facing in Khartoum? We talked to a lot of people as they came across the border, and every single one of them described, you know, literally living in a battlefield. One young woman we talked to, she showed us her bullet wound. She was inside her apartment. This was not a, you know, like a plaster kind of house, not particularly thick concrete. And the bullet just came through the wall. And that's why they left.

Does she know who shot her? No, she doesn't know. why they left. Does she know who shot her? No, she doesn't know. Oh. She's staying at home. Then the gunshot come. It came through the house? Yeah. Just came through a wall. Yeah. Other people described living near these army barracks and then having aircraft dropping bombs and missing

their target and coming very, very close to their homes. So, you know, you can see why people leave because it's very, very uncertain. And yet in other parts of the city, as soon as there is no fighting, you know, the markets get set up again, people come out. There is a little bit of commerce. You know, this sort of explains why there hasn't been a wholesale exodus from Khartoum, but it's been fairly targeted to just some of these areas where the fighting has been. The stores are empty and all kinds of goods are in short supply. The surrounding grocery stores have long been out of goods. Plus, the hospital is closed and there is a severe shortage of medical resources. This is the biggest problem we face right now. So it hasn't collapsed as some

people feared it would in those early days, but nor is it getting better. And in fact, people we talked to coming across the border said in their opinion, they hoped it would get better, but it hasn't, and that's why they left. And as they're leaving, they're fleeing that brutal violence that you've described for neighboring countries. So for folks who are not familiar with the country's geography, for neighboring countries. So for folks who are not familiar with the country's geography, where are people headed? So Sudan is one of the largest countries in Africa. It's actually, it's huge. We think, I mean, it's actually difficult in Canada to kind of get your mind around it, but it's an enormous country. It's got seven different countries that border it. And all of them are very poor, or at least most of them are. Egypt might be the only exception.

And so what you have is you have people kind of just spreading out from the capital Khartoum, from Darfur, some going to Chad, some going up to Egypt, and some, many, were heading south to South Sudan. And that's where we went to. And what's interesting about South Sudan, it is in many ways the closest escape route from Khartoum. It's an eight-hour drive, a straight shot down the road or up the road, depending where you are, right to the border. And it's an open border. So if you get there, you can get out. And that's why our CBC crew made this effort to try to go to that border with South Sudan and Sudan. In oppressive heat of 40 plus degrees Celsius, caravans of exhausted donkeys bring people and baggage across the frontier. While you were there, we heard some of your conversation with Hafiz at the beginning there.

But if we really look at this map again, Sudan and South Sudan used to be part of the same country. It's not even that long ago that people were fleeing in the other direction. They were fleeing violence in South Sudan. Can you unpack briefly some of the history there? It's fascinating, tragic, of course. So, yes, there was very much a split between Sudan and South Sudan. One is largely Muslim.

The other is largely Christian, although that doesn't exactly totally hold true. Nonetheless, they still share lots of the same culture, lots of the same demographics. But South Sudan went its own way, and then promptly, almost the exact same thing that we now see going on in Sudan, there was a tussle for control. The difference is, is eventually, after several years, they did find a way to power share, and that is the situation now. So South Sudan is on a very precarious trek, if you will, towards what they hope will be a democratic outcome, but it is extraordinarily difficult. But at least for the moment, you have some semblance of

law and order there. But it is still wracked by tribal violence, for example. Extreme poverty on the Human Development Index. South Sudan is right at the very bottom. So it's not a stretch to say it's the poorest country in the world, and particularly up where we were in rank, which is right on the border with Sudan. I mean, there's nothing. It's really, really awful to see people, you know, the homes are flimsy. There's virtually, you know,

no commerce. The whole place would not be able to survive were it not for a massive humanitarian effort. As part of that humanitarian response, you actually met with a UN worker, Mulu James Bourre, who's monitoring migration there. And he told you that there aren't as many people crossing now as there were when the fighting first broke out, but there's still this steady stream of people. They say they don't know. They are not sure when this war is ending because though there is ceasefire, but they don't see it ending soon. Just how many people did he say he's seeing cross the border into South Sudan each day? So at this particular border crossing with Rank and Sudan,

he said about 1,000 a day. Right now we receive from 800 to 1,200 every day. Is that a lot? Crossing the border. But from the last three weeks, the number was more. It was double that number before. I guess what matters here is that it's now quite a steady drumbeat of people coming in. And that's really what the concern is, because South Sudan can barely cope with its own population. And as you say, a lot of people left because of the civil war there, and they kind of built

new lives in Sudan. And now they're being forced to leave there and come back to South Sudan. And they're coming back really to a country that has kind of moved on without them. Not all of them have actually homes to go to anymore. Some of the land that they might have farmed, that's been taken up by other people. So the real worry here is that this enormous displacement of people, even though it's South Sudanese returning to South Sudan, it's still hugely upsetting to everything. And when you have this kind of conflict,

it leads to violence. And that really is the worry here, that such a fragile country, it could tip over the edge even more than what it has already. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You were there at the border for several days. You've given us a little bit of a glimpse, kind of postcard snapshot of what things looked like there. Can I ask you to expand on that and paint a picture for what you've seen? Well, what's overwhelming is the

heat. I mean, it was over 40 degrees Celsius, somewhere between 41 and 44. And, you know, it's very, very difficult for anybody to do anything in that kind of weather. So when you saw people coming across the border, they needed water immediately. They needed to get into shelter and so forth. And so that was the primary, that was a prime directive of the humanitarian effort was there. So I would say just about a week before we got there, the UN, the International Organization for Migration had set up a system that seemed to be working. They would meet people, you mentioned Mulu James Bure, he would meet them at the border, they would put them in a bus, they would take them to a transit center where there was water and shelter, and then as quickly as possible, they would move them down to a harbor, if you will, very rough harbor with long Nile River boats on them, boats that are

normally used to carry, for example, fruits, watermelons, and so forth. Only this time, they've been converted into people carriers, and they would pack these boats with people and then sail them up the Nile River. And that was the escape route. That's what's going on in rank. It's a pipeline to get people from Sudan to areas of South Sudan where they can be cared for because, you know, if they left them in rank, they'd be dead because they're just not able to stay there. Too hot, no water, no food, no shelter. But meanwhile, on these boats, I saw some of the footage of you on those boats speaking to people. And there's a

point at which one of the young men actually turns to you and asks you to help him protect himself from the sun. Yeah. You know, again, it's really rough. People had blankets and some of them were able to kind of stick them on poles and maybe make something of a tent. But just imagine, I mean, this, everyone is crammed in. There's barely enough space to sit down. Forget about standing up. No place to go to the bathroom. No privacy, nothing. You are jammed in like sardines. And he just, you know, he spoke English.

And he said, The sun is too hot now. Right. Yeah. So what are you going to do? I need an umbrella. You need an umbrella? Yeah.

I don't have an umbrella. And I was so surprised because I wasn't expecting, you know, he wasn't angry. He was very calm, but it seemed entirely reasonable. I just didn't have an umbrella to give him and I felt terrible. But this was it because he had a two-day boat ride up the river. So they're going to stop at night. They'll sleep on the land. They'll be able to make some fires, cook some food, and then continue on. But it really is a real rough trip. And

even when they get to Malakal, it's a couple of hundred kilometers up the river, they're not safe because there's so many people now in South Sudan, so many people in Malakal, that there actually is violence between these different groups that are arriving. Everyone kind of thrown together in these temporary transit centers. And the UN mission there says that they had 20 people killed. So many people feel once they get on the boat that they may be free and home., like it just doesn't end. You can absolutely understand people feeling incredibly stressed and incredibly sensitive towards each other. The amount of political tension that you're describing combined with just the personal trauma of this kind of displacement, it's almost difficult to wrap

your mind around it. While you were there, you spoke with a doctor at a medical clinic, and this person had seen a lot of the patients who have fled South Sudan for Sudan and are now returning to the South. What did she tell you about the toll that this repeated displacement was having on people? Well, she said these people, you know, yes, some are shot and yes, some are limping across the border, but everyone is traumatized. Yeah, people here, they are very distressed. They have post-traumatic depression. They always feel angry.

They don't have a place to stay. They don't have food to eat. You know, this kind of trauma is very, very difficult to kind of deal with. Yes, you can move people through a pipeline and physically get them somewhere. But I think this will be one of the major worries because this is just a small little snapshot of one border crossing. And you have a lot of people driven from their homes, almost half a million forced outside the borders. And so you can just see just how damaging this is for that entire part of Africa. You know, it's a part of Africa that was already on the edge. And this

is just, it's just, it's just making it so much harder. Chris, you've laid out a picture of all of these people on their path to this new future, whatever it's going to be. I want to try to imagine them arriving. So let's talk about some of the issues being created by this mass exodus from Sudan, that what is happening then for South Sudan. As I understand it from your reporting, there are three main concerns about how this could spark instability in the region. And you've mentioned some of the humanitarian concerns with violence breaking out, people not having homes to return to. And it's important to note here that Canada has had a continuous presence in South Sudan since it achieved independence, contributed millions of dollars towards development and humanitarian efforts. But this latest crisis related to the Sudan war, well, Ottawa has sent $31 million on its own. Sounds like a lot. the $350 million in humanitarian assistance given to Ukraine since January of 2022.

I mean, these two conflicts are obviously very, very different, but it certainly helps create a bit of a picture of priorities there. What kind of help will the country need to deal with all of these arrivals from Sudan? Well, I don't want to focus too much on the numbers, but I would say there is another way of looking at it. Canada has provided South Sudan over $900 million since it became independent. So it has, you know, Ukraine, perhaps a bit more of a sprint. This is much more of a marathon. And there has been a continuous Canadian presence and a continuous pipeline of Canadian money going into South Sudan.

We talked to the foreign minister of South Sudan, and he talked about how Canada's foreign minister was on the phone with him literally within 48 hours of the events in Sudan. So he felt that Canada, as much as Canada can so far away, had South Sudan's back. And not every country has an embassy in Juba, and Canada does. So I think the big concern that they have in South Sudan is just how unstable this is going to make their own country. If you have those kind of militarized nation, you know people running to South Sudan with guns, it creates an insecurity here. We become vulnerable as a country. You know, they don't want to have more tribal warfare between people coming back and not having enough resources to live. And especially they're concerned about this oil pipeline that is absolutely like the main artery to bring money into South Sudan.

The oil comes out of the ground in the south part of South Sudan. It's taken all the way up through the middle of the country to Sudan and to Port Sudan. And 90% of South Sudan's economy is based on this single pipeline. So it's really vulnerable. So everyone is really worried about, you know, will the fighting in Sudan cut off the pipeline? So everyone is really worried about, you know, will the fighting in Sudan cut off the pipeline? This was a grave worry that I heard over and over again from South Sudan's foreign minister. This is a country that's trying to set up elections. You cannot imagine how difficult it would be in such poverty to do that.

They need to draw a constitution up. They need to have electoral constituencies. They need to educate voters on how it works, train election staff. And they have to do all that in the middle of what I was just telling you about this unbelievable number of people pouring over the border. So it's been a huge disruption to the bigger job of nation building for South Sudan. The political questions really come to the forefront as you describe this humanitarian concern, the economic concerns here on the ground. But given South Sudan's relatively

recent independence, I understand that there are some fears that this unrest in the north could create political instability in its southern neighbor. What do you think is at stake here? You know, we talked to the head of the UN mission. There's some 17,000 UN personnel, many of whom live in a large compound in the capital, Juba. We talked to Nicholas Hasem, who's the special representative for the Secretary General of the UN. He's based there. He really called this a make-or-break year for South Sudan. It has to accomplish a set of preparations for free and fair elections. It has to draft a new constitution, which is pretty critical. It had two civil wars in a decade. It has to find a way in which people can live together harmoniously. And it's got to do that in the next 18 months. They're supposed to have these elections, their first ever democratic elections next year. And this is what the whole focus of Canada's aid efforts, of so many other countries have been trying to push South Sudan to make these changes that it needs so it does not become a failed state and it does not require even more humanitarian help.

And that is the big fear, that what is going on in Sudan, the stream of people will not only continue, it will continue to get worse. The fights that I described that are already happening between new arrivals coming into Malakal, that may just be the beginning. They do not want that to become contagious and shift into other areas. So it feels like a real high wire act right now. Chris, thank you so much for being our eyes on the ground and telling us some of this story today. Well, thanks for having me on your great podcast. Appreciate it. Before we go today, a major update from our episode on Friday. We talked about the mounting pressure on former Governor General David Johnston to quit his post probing alleged Chinese interference in the last two federal elections.

The House of Commons had even passed a motion calling on him to resign after opposition parties accused him of a friendship with the prime minister. Johnston had denied bias and said he'd stay on to finish his mandate. But on Friday, Johnston handed in his resignation letter. He said he'd taken the role to strengthen trust in our democratic institutions, but decided his leadership was having the opposite effect. Johnston had controversially recommended against a public inquiry into foreign interference. And then on Saturday, the Liberals' Intergovernmental Affairs Minister, Dominique Leblanc, made it clear that wasn't the final word.

A public inquiry has never been off the table. All options remain on the table. The Prime Minister said so when he announced the appointment of Mr. Johnston. main on the table. The Prime Minister said so when he announced the appointment of Mr. Johnston. My job is to, in the very next few days, in short order, ask opposition leaders to take this matter seriously, not just to simply say, oh, there has to be a public inquiry. Okay, make suggestions about who could lead this public inquiry. What would the terms of reference be? We'll keep you posted, but that's all for today. I'm Soroja Coelho.

Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner.