Front Burner - Over 100 deaths, lethal substances, and a global investigation

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

This week – Ontario police charged Kenneth Law, of Mississauga, with 12 counts of counselling or aiding suicide. That’s on top of the two counts he was charged with when he was first arrested in May. Law is accused of running several websites that were used to sell sodium nitrite and other items that can be used for self harm. He’s alleged to have sent at least 1,200 packages to people in more than 40 countries, and is being investigated by police forces from the UK to New Zealand. Thomas Daigle has been covering this story extensively for CBC News. He’s here to explain this complicated case, and what we know about the man at the centre of it. If you or someone you know is struggling, here's where to get help: Talk Suicide Canada: 1-833-456-4566 | Text 45645 (between 4 p.m. and midnight ET) Kids Help Phone: [phone], live chat counseling on http://www.kidshelpphone.ca/ Find a 24-hour crisis centre, via the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention: https://suicideprevention.ca/need-help/ Looking for a transcript of the show? They’re available here daily: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey, it's Tamara. Just before we get started, I want to warn you that today's episode talks about suicide. There are also some distressing details in it, so please listen with care. Oh my gosh, what a wonderful kid. You know, she was so kind. She would build computers for her friends that couldn't afford them.

She would take her own money and buy the parts and then just give them to them and not ask for anything in return just to, you know, play the games online. You know, reality is Noelle had, you know, a lot of mental problems, you know, had some depression and some other things. But gosh, what a great kid. David Ramirez lives in Colorado. He lost his daughter Noel back in March. reached out a couple of months later and told him that her death was linked to a toxic substance that she'd ordered online from a website owned and operated by a man from Mississauga, Ontario named Kenneth Law. As you are aware, this investigation began as a result of a sudden death in Peel Region where the victim was suspected to have

consumed sodium nitrite purchased through an online company believed to be owned by Kenneth Law. This week, York Regional Police charged Law with 12 counts of counseling and aiding suicide. That's on top of the two counts he was charged with when he was first arrested back in May. Law is accused of running several websites that were used to sell that toxic substance, sodium nitrite, and other items that can be used for self-harm. He's being investigated by police forces from the UK to New Zealand. Police allege that Law has sent at least 1,200 packages to people in more than 40 countries. As these investigations continue, there are big questions about whether these deaths could have been stopped earlier

and how many more deaths could be linked to the websites that Kenneth Law ran. Today, I'm talking to my colleague Thomas Dagla. He's been covering the story extensively for CBC News. He's going to explain this really complicated case and what we know about the man at the center of it. Hi, Thomas. Nice to talk to you. Hi, Tamara. So before we get into who Kenneth Law is, can you just tell me what he's accused of in Canada? Yeah, he's facing 14 counts of counseling or aiding suicide for 14 deaths in Ontario. There are potentially other deaths in other provinces that are being investigated. But so far, the 11 police agencies across Ontario that are involved in this investigation have come up with these 14 names that they have tied to Kenneth Law because of their suicides, police believe, were tied to products supplied by Kenneth Law. Okay. And this is a story that's transcended borders. Police in a bunch of different places are investigating him. So what's he being accused of internationally? He operated a website, allegedly, a series of websites, five of them, in fact,

where he sold a toxic substance and other paraphernalia for people to take their own lives. Police allege that he marketed this towards at-risk individuals, people who needed help, but who instead found these products to kill themselves. We know this from our reporting. There was also an option on one of his websites to buy time with him to speak with him on the phone which apparently was the time when you know clients would speak with him and get a better sense of how to use this to take their own lives that's the allegation anyway that's the allegation i guess like when it comes to counseling is that is that what they would be referring to yeah the complicated thing here is that sodium nitrite, the substance that is alleged to have been used by many of his victims to take their own lives, it's not an illegal substance.

It can be bought. You can have it in Canada and many other countries. But in such high purity, 99.99% is how we advertised as sodium nitrite. Health Canada does not regulate sodium nitrite because it does have a legitimate use in the culinary world. It's used in a diluted form to cure meats. But the way it was sold is in a white powder form in a small packet on Kenneth Law's website, enough for his alleged victims to kill themselves. Is sodium nitrite something that was previously known to be used for the purposes of self-harm in high quantities? Like before this case, is this something that people

were aware of? Sodium nitrite has been talked about on pro-suicide forums online for some time. There are records of this being used in recent years, especially, I would say, over the past two or three years for people seeking to take their own lives. And Kenneth Law seems to have found his alleged victims or his clients through one particular pro-suicide forum where people went on to discuss methods of Yeah. And I want to talk about that forum a bit more in a second. But how did Kenneth Law first come to the attention of law enforcement? Well, Peel Regional Police, who have been leading the investigation here in Ontario, they say that they became aware of a death in March of this year in Peel Region near Toronto that led them to start investigating Kenneth Law. That's the short answer.

But the longer answer is in reality, police here in Canada and in England were alerted to his operations many months ago and had been – his name had come up in previous investigations. and had been, his name had come up in previous investigations. Peel Regional Police, by all accounts, didn't start investigating him until a reporter from the Times of London newspaper approached the police agency with a fair bit of evidence showing what Law had been doing, and that's when they started investigating and connecting the dots between Law's products and initially two deaths in Toronto's suburbs, And now we know of at least 14 across Ontario. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit about that Times of London investigation? I read it and it's quite chilling, but tell us a bit about the conversation that this reporter says he had with

Kenneth Law. Initially, it was the father of an alleged victim of Kenneth Law, David Parfit, whose son took his own life in 2021. He's the one who approached the Times of London and said, hey, here's what I know. You should look into this. My son was found dead with a packet, a weird law's company name, the substance, the concentration level, which was basically a pure substance, which can only be used for one purpose, and that's to kill yourself. And then Tom used it to take his own life. The Times reporter looked into it, spoke with Law over the phone, posed as a would-be client,

and that's how he got Law to tell him about what he was doing. The Times reporter eventually came to Mississauga, Ontario, confronted law outside the post office, where he was apparently mailing many of his products. And he had a much different story. Eventually, the Times reporter presented the evidence to Peel Regional Police, and that's when they started their investigation. We're aware that packages were shipped to over 40 countries. We're aware of 1,200 packages that have been shipped. What do we know so far about who Kenneth Law is and his background? If you believe the resume that he posted online some years ago,

he worked in aerospace engineering. resume that he posted online some years ago. He worked in aerospace engineering. We know that he had obtained a professional engineering certificate in Ontario. He studied at the University of Toronto. Most recently, though, he was working as a cook at the kitchen at a posh downtown Toronto hotel. That's until his name came up in the media until he was arrested this past spring when the hotel terminated his employment. All the while, we know that since around late 2020, he'd been operating these websites, allegedly selling instruments for people to kill themselves. Police have not speculated on his motives, but we do know from the timeline that we've been able to construct in our reporting that there may be a monetary element to this. Because in the spring of 2020, early on in the pandemic, Law had racked up $130,000 in debts.

Wow. He filed for bankruptcy. He had been sued by the Royal Bank of Canada for unpaid credit card debt. bankruptcy. He had been sued by the Royal Bank of Canada for unpaid credit card debt. And it was a few months later that police say that he launched these websites and started selling sodium nitrite online. And by all accounts, it may have been very lucrative for him. And what has he said in response to the allegations against him? I spoke with him briefly over the phone just before he was arrested. I think he picked up the phone because he thought it was his lawyer. He was looking for a lawyer at the time, picked up the phone. I spoke with him briefly and he denied all allegations. That's the only thing I could get out of him.

And I said, what exactly do you deny? And he said, all the allegations. He has not entered a plea in court. He has mostly sat emotionless. Anytime he has appeared in court numerous times here in Ontario through this whole process since May. We know that on one of his websites, which are now taken online but still available if you know where to look, there was a disclaimer that said that he will not be held responsible for however the client uses the products purchased on this website. Tell me a bit about the websites that he's alleged to have been operating for about two years before they were taken down. You mentioned this forum that people were using to discover these websites.

Tell me a bit about that process and how people would have found them. So with a bit of searching online, some of the alleged victims of Kenneth Law were able to find this pro-suicide forum where people go on and discuss methods of suicide openly with acronyms. discuss methods of suicide openly with acronyms. I've seen several users use the initials KL for Kenneth Law, SN for sodium nitrite, or IC for I'm Time Cuisine, which was the name of one of the main websites that he ran. So with a bit of research, users were able to put two and two together between what was being said on this pro-suicide forum and then Google and find Kenneth Law's website and figure out how to use his products to take their own lives. Some of the families of sodium nitrite victims suspect that there was perhaps some collusion going on between Kenneth Law and the administrators of the website. We don't know that. I asked the

lead investigator here in Ontario this week, I asked him, has anyone else come up in the investigation? Are there other suspects you're looking into? They wouldn't speculate, wouldn't confirm whether or not anyone else other than Kenneth Law is part of this investigation. part of this investigation. But once the users ended up on his websites, they were sort of masked, if you will, the main one being called I'm Time Cuisine, which looked like a website that you would go to if you're looking for salt for curing meats, which is what he sort of presented this sodium nitrite as. If you look at the packet, it said on it, food grade, 99.99% pure, but there was no way that you would cure meats with nearly 100% pure sodium nitrite. That appears to be one of the ways he was able to get around rules and skirt away from investigations.

So how would police go about prosecuting something like this if the substance is legal? What do they have to prove here? The name of the charge in Canada's criminal code is counseling or aiding suicide. So prosecutors are going to have to show that Kenneth Law willingly helped these people take their own lives. Whether they have emails back and forth, whether they have recordings of conversations or other evidence showing that Kenneth Law coached them and told them how much sodium nitrite they would need to use and how to ingest it, they're going to need some sort of connection along those lines to tie him directly to deaths. Investigators in the UK, for instance, have pointed out that they have not laid any charges.

They can't yet directly connect deaths to him because they need evidence that this death was directly because of the sodium nitrate that was supplied by this man. Hi, it Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So families of alleged victims have been speaking out both here and in the UK, and I know you've spoken to some of them. What have they been saying about all of this?

Many of them have, since the death of their loved one, found a receipt or a credit card transaction that has linked that death to Kenneth Law. that has linked that death to Kenneth Law. In some cases, they've received a phone call weeks or months or years later from investigators saying, we think that this death may have been connected to Kenneth Law. And there's been a lot of shock from loved ones that this man was allegedly able to carry out these businesses for two or three years and sell products intended for one use really for suicide there are families around the world and probably dozens of countries who have been left

grieving david parfit for instance the the father of university student tom parfit who lived near london he's the one who sparked much of this investigation and he is convinced that if his son Tom had not found this website, he would still be alive. An investigation, whilst it's welcome, doesn't solve the root cause of the problem that we face here. And the root cause is that we have internet forums who prey on vulnerable people, vulnerable people like my son Tom, and encourage them to take their own life and sell ways and means in which people can actually use to take their own life. It's almost a spectator sport on the forum. They actually watch as people take their own life.

I know you also talked to a woman in northwestern Ontario who nearly lost her daughter. And what did she tell you? We know this because she provided us with a credit card receipt showing the name of Kenneth Law's website. And so that night, her daughter started screaming, her lips, her face started turning white. She was in a great deal of pain. She was luckily rushed to the hospital and was given an antidote for sodium nitrite and was able to survive. But this woman, who we've agreed not to name because of the sensitive nature of the topic, she gave the envelope that the sodium nitrite came in, gave the evidence to Ontario Provincial Police, she says, in April 2022. And she says it wasn't for a whole year, wasn't for another full 12 months that the police returned to her and started asking questions about Kenneth Law only after Peel Regional Police had started their formal investigation. Just from our tabulation,

between that incident in April 2022 and Kenneth Law's arrest in May 2023, we're aware of a dozen, 12 deaths just in Ontario. And she's convinced that many lives could have been saved if police had done their job a year ago. Yeah, it's horrifying. What can you tell me about Kenneth Law's alleged victims? We know from Ontario police that they range in age from 16 to 36. There may be some older alleged victims in other jurisdictions. But for instance, we spoke with the mother of Anthony Jones in Michigan, who was 17 when he died. She said that he purchased the product. He took the sodium nitrite. So about 3 a.m., he comes busting in my room saying, Mom, I did something. Now, I go, what did you do? He says, I took something. I need to go to emergency room right away, right away.

Then he kept on screaming. After I got 911 on the phone, he proceeded to scream over and over, I want to live. I want to live. She says that he immediately regretted his decision. He was taken to hospital but didn't survive. We don't know how many victims there are out there. We know that from our tally, there are at least 110 deaths worldwide that are being or have been investigated for potential links to Kenneth Law. And there are likely more. We know of a teenager in Pennsylvania. We know of a former high school teacher in Italy.

The list goes on and on. It's just hard. It's rough on the entire family. His siblings, you know, his grandparents, his father, everyone just still going through it. It's just horrific because you know,

if they didn't have access to it, maybe that extra day, the next day, something, you know, could have been brought into their lives to make them have a change of heart. What have police said about the delay in linking these cases and starting this investigation? Canadian police have said practically nothing.

They have repeatedly said that this is all part of the investigation and they can't comment. In fact, I asked the lead investigator just this week, when was the earliest date that Canadian law enforcement became aware of Kenneth Law? Or when was the earliest he came up in an investigation? And they declined to comment. We can tell you that last year, there were two instances that the same police agency in England, Surrey Police near London, reached out to Kenneth Law after his name and his company came up in two separate investigations tied to suicides there. David Parfit, the father of Tom Parfit, says he reached out to Ontario Provincial Police last September, several months before the arrest. So these are at least

four instances where police were made aware of these businesses online several months before the arrest. And one more thing I should mention about this is Surrey Police told CBC News that they looked at Kenneth Law's website and they didn't find any indication that this was being used for suicide. And that's why the investigation sort of ended right there. Wow. I think a lot of people might find it shocking that the substance which can be used for self-harm is openly being sold to just anyone. And beyond this case, what do we know about how common that is? And are there other sellers who might be doing

the same thing? Yeah, there are other sellers who are apparently still doing the same thing online actively. The pro-suicide forum is still online, is still available. Amazon used to sell high purity sodium nitrite on its website and faced a possible class action lawsuit in the US that eventually got thrown out. But Amazon has told us they don't sell high purity sodium nitrite. In fact, if you go on and search for it on Amazon, you don't find it anymore. But parents of loved ones who have lost family members are convinced that these websites need to be shut down. The pro-suicide forum needs to be shut down. All the sellers of sodium nit websites need to be shut down. The pro-suicide forum needs to be shut down. All the sellers of sodium nitrite need to be shut down.

And they feel like Kenneth Law is one among many. And this pro-suicide forum, I know access to it has been blocked in other places, right? So is there any chance of that happening here? Any progress towards that or no? There has not been any discussion. I think there hasn't been as much political pressure in this country as there has been in others. The website remains online and many people are still accessing it, posting on it and talking about methods of suicide

and discussing not only that, but alternatives to Kenneth Law now that his websites have been taken down. What are the biggest unanswered questions that you have about this investigation at this point? The biggest questions are, for one, whether police agencies in other countries are going to try to press charges, whether they're going to try to extradite Kenneth Law, whether they have enough evidence tying him, given that he was here in Canada the whole time, apparently, whether they have enough evidence tying him to deaths abroad. Investigators in Canada have said that he sent 1,200 packages to 40 countries. More than 200 of those were received in the UK.

And is there going to be more pressure to have these websites, pro-suicide forums, and sodium nitrite sellers taken offline? Police made a point this week here in Ontario of saying, some of these websites are operating abroad. In other words, saying, we have no jurisdiction there. There's very little we can do. And it's going to be up to investigators in other countries to do their job. Thomas, thank you so much for this conversation.

I appreciate it. You're welcome. Before we go today, I wanted to let you know about some resources if you or someone you know is struggling with self-harm. If you want to talk to someone, Talk Suicide Canada has both a phone and texting service. You can find those numbers at talksuicide.ca. And if you're looking for a crisis center near you, you can find a list at suicideprevention.ca. Dennis Kalnan, Joyta Shangupta, Shannon Higgins, Lauren Donnelly, and Derek Vanderwyk. Our sound design was by Sam McNulty. Our music is by Joseph Chabison.

Our executive producer this week is Elaine Chao. And I'm Tamara Kandaker. Thank you so much for listening. FrontBurner will be back on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.