Front Burner - Phil Fontaine’s long fight for a papal apology

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Decades ago Phil Fontaine helped open Canada's eyes to the horrors of the residential school system. And he's since spent years pushing for an apology from the top of the Catholic Church. Today he reflects on hearing Pope Francis say "sorry" for the second time. "My big issue right now is, what to do about this issue of moving beyond the apology," said Fontaine, who is a residential school survivor and served three terms as national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Access to church records, how to handle unmarked graves and the return of Indigenous land are key issues for Fontaine. Also in this episode, Mabel Brown, a survivor who traveled from Inuvik, N.W.T., to see the Pope speak, shares what the apology means to her.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Before his apology in Muscogee, Alberta on Monday morning, Pope Francis was rolled in his wheelchair to the Ermin-Skin Cree Nation Cemetery, where he prayed among rows and rows of white crosses, some marking graves believed to hold the remains of residential school children.

He was then led to the community's powwow grounds, where the chiefs of the four nations of Muscogee, wearing headdresses and traditional clothing, led a grand entry of drummers and singers and dancers in full regalia. Clothing and songs at the institution that the Pope represents tried to extinguish. A group of people walked through the grounds with the National Center for Truth and Reconciliation's long red banner, etched with thousands of names of Indigenous children who died at residential schools. Then Pope Francis began his speech, where he eventually said the words that so many survivors

had traveled thousands of kilometers to hear him say. I'm sorry. Because the first step of my penitential pilgrimage among you is that of again asking forgiveness, of telling you once more that I am deeply sorry. Sorry. Mabel Brown came all the way from Inuvik, near the Beaufort Sea in the Northwest Territories,

to watch this speech, alongside some of her own former classmates. It was wonderful to see so many of them who I knew way back then who I went to school with. And it just shows how much help we do need by the amount of people that showed up, like First Nations and Inuit, Métis, all showed up. She says she was taken from her family at five or six years old and moved to multiple residential schools throughout

her childhood, as her mother was before her. The effects that we had through my mother, through me, my sisters and brothers, all nine of us, all trickled down to my daughter and my grandson. Because all the things that happened to us in there, whether we got, we're sexually abused, All the things that happened to us in there, whether we got sexually abused, there's all kinds of abuse, physical, mental, emotional. She says she hasn't yet heard everything that she'd hoped for from the Pope. She wants him to commit to real alive to come forward and say sorry themselves. But no, not one of them come out yet to apologize to us. Not one. I hope this whole thing waken up things so much.

up things so much. I'm hoping that they just stir up things so much that they can humble themselves and say, I'm sorry, because it does hurt whatever happens. Today, I'm speaking to a man who has been fighting for decades to get to the moment where this apology could happen, and fighting for more than just an apology. Phil Fontaine is Anishinaabe and a former three-term National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. He's also one of the key architects of the Indian Residential School Settlement Agreement and one of the first people who came forward more than 30 years ago to tell the Canadian public about the abuses that he and other Indigenous children were subjected to in those institutions.

Hi, Mr. Fontaine. Hello. How are you? Thank you so much for making the time. Anytime. Thank you. So this morning, the Pope led a mass in front of thousands of people at Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium. And as part of that event, you gave an incredible speech. And I wonder if you could start by telling me a bit about what you spoke about. My speech was essentially about two themes, perseverance slash persistence and forgiveness.

And so that's what I spoke about. Can you tell me a little bit more about those themes? Well, perseverance really is a reflection on the journey that so many people have been on that brought us to Muscogee yesterday. We hear the Holy Father apologize for the second time to the survivors. A much larger crowd this time than was the case at the Vatican four months ago. And so that was the culmination of so many efforts in the past by different people that took us from, you know, a place that where we started 70, 80 years ago to 2022. And it wasn't easy for anyone that has gone through a residential school experience. This is not to suggest that every experience was terrible or horrible, but in the main, it was not a healthy situation.

And so it was important for me to reflect on that journey to the audience and then to move into this notion of forgiveness. Pope Francis came here humble and speaking to us and asking for forgiveness for all of what came down on the survivors of residential schools. And so we've spent a lot of time talking about healing and reconciliation and the truth. We've had the situation with Don Mark Graves and church records, land where residential schools were situated. We want that land back, obviously, so we have to strike a deal with the federal government and the churches to establish a process where we can reacquire

our land. And so my point there was that all of what we've endured has been a burden, a terrific burden. And we shouldered that burden, in my view, unfairly. It wasn't our burden alone. But in order to deal with that issue, we have to also be willing and able to forgive those that caused this great harm. because we will never be finished with this story if we can't bring closure to this matter. And I'm not suggesting that we forget. I mean, there are some incredible, powerful memories

about the residential school experience that have sustained people for years because they wanted their issue resolved. They wanted to come to a place where they could establish some peace and solace in their lives. Yeah. Do you mind if I ask you what it was like for you personally to listen to the Pope say, I'm sorry, on Monday. What went through your mind? You've been at the forefront of this for many years.

You traveled to the Vatican twice in 2009 to meet with former Pope Benedict, then again with the delegation that went this past March. So what was it like for you to hear this apology on Monday? What was it like for you to hear this apology on Monday? Well, I was looking at a person who had humbled himself before us and begged for forgiveness. And he demonstrated great humility. I thought that was a powerful symbol of hope for us and that someone

as influential and as powerful as Pope Francis is, I mean he's the head of 1.3 billion Catholics in every part of the world, to come here on our homeland and one of our First Nations come in and say, I'm sorry. I thought that was a momentous occasion. What were the moments that struck you in the Pope's apology that meant the most to you? There wasn't one single moment.

I considered everything that I heard. And it was important for me to make sense of what I was hearing. Because this is the second time I've heard Pope Francis say I am sorry. Inside the Vatican before an audience of about 200 including bishops, indigenous delegates and their supporters the Pope delivered a powerful message few saw coming. I ask for God's forgiveness and I want to say to you with all my heart, I am very sorry. I heard him in Rome. We shared painful stories, stories of shame and hurt.

And he had listened very patiently and carefully to everything that was being said, and then here again. And most of what I heard, I found quite comforting. But nothing is ever perfect. I'm not suggesting that he covered everything that needed to be covered or said what had to be said in a way that convinced everyone. And an apology is one thing, it's not the end, it's the beginning. And apologies are individual matters.

I mean, it's up to each individual to determine for themselves whether the apology is sufficient. Giving up the headdress is honoring a man as the honorary chief and leader in a community. And so in doing that, he's actually adopted him into as one of our leaders in the community.

And so it's an honorary... I've heard people be very critical of Chief Wilton Littlechild for presenting the Holy Father with a bonnet. The war bonnet donned by the Pope is held in high regard, and some critics say allowing prominent people to take part in significant Indigenous traditions can devalue their meeting. Well, he followed his community's protocols in that respect, in terms of gift-giving, and particularly with a bonnet. And he went out and sought direction from the leadership of this community and the people. They said, yes, it's more than appropriate to present the headdress to Pope Francis, and that's what he did.

And so I think that was a very powerful statement. Are there things that you had hoped to hear the Pope say here that he hasn't said yet? Well, I'm no different than most. I, of course, would have been ecstatic to hear Pope Francis say I'm going to rescind the papal bulls I'm going to revoke the doctrine of discovery but what he had to say about that

matter or those matters in a general way I thought was important he talked about the evil of colonization the evil of colonization, the evil of the colonizers. And, uh, and so he may not have been specific about the doctrine of discovery or the

papal bulls, but that's for another time. Uh, we're going to have to work that out with, uh, representatives from the Catholic church here in Canada. There are about 72, I think, Catholic entities in Canada. There isn't just one Catholic Church. So we're going to have to come up with an appropriate process to deal with those matters.

Yeah. Just on the note of the papal bulls and the doctrine of discovery, just for our listeners, these are edicts from the church which said any land not occupied by Christians could be claimed by them. And the people on it converted and subjugated, which many see, I believe, as the root of the entire residential school system. And if the Pope were to rescind the Doctrine of Discovery, what could be the impacts of that? The Doctrine of Discovery is embedded in U.S. law and is reflected in our own judicial system. And so it isn't a decision that only rests with the Pope. We're going to have to deal with two significant governments,

U.S., Canadian, the laws that reflect the doctrine of discovery and what we do with those. So it isn't a simple and straightforward matter. But at the moment, I'm not focused on that. My big issue right now is what to do about this issue of moving beyond the apology. What is it that we can do together with the Catholic Church to fix the fractured relationship that exists between us and the church? And what are we going to do about access to records? What are we going to do about on-mark graves? What are we going to do

about the land that rightly belongs to us? And how can we reacquire those lands? How about our objects? Some of them, many of them, I'm sure, sacred objects that lie in the museum at the Vatican. We can take practical measures to deal with those matters, but we're going to have to work it out together with the Catholic Church. Yeah. And so I see that as a pretty significant challenge. episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

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I know three decades ago, you were one of the first residential school survivors to speak about the abuse and trauma that you and other children suffered in those institutions. I actually just watched a TV interview that you did on CBC in 1990 with Barbara Frum. Today, the head of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs called for an inquiry into one of the rawest wounds of Native history. We're joined from Winnipeg by Chief Phil Fontaine, the man calling for that inquiry. We're joined from Winnipeg by Chief Phil Fontaine, the man calling for that inquiry. And I have to say, watching it, the tone seems very different from what you'd hope that an interview with someone talking about those experiences would be like now. She seemed skeptical about whether the abuse really was that bad in residential schools. For example, she asks you about whether residential schools were any different from other schools that used corporal punishment at the time.

Chief Fontaine, so many Canadians of your generation were strapped, were hit, were whipped on their hands with rulers and yardsticks. It was corporal punishment, something that was only really eradicated in quite recent days. What was different here? Why do you think you've got a particular case to make? Well, I think it was the... She also asks you less than a minute into the interview about what kind of abuse that you personally experienced, something we might now think of as not very trauma-informed. What form of abuse were you talking about in your own case? Well, that's something that's, as you well understand, incredibly delicate, sensitive, and very much a private matter.

I'm wondering if you recall what it was like at that time to come forward and tell the Canadian public that these things really did happen and that they happened on a wide scale. As you can well imagine, it wasn't easy, but the story had to be told. and we had to come to grips with a sad dark chapter in the lives of indigenous peoples and in the course of bringing light to to this issue to teach and inform Canadians about their history as well. Their history that did not include anything related to the residential school experience. And so that was the big challenge. And I wasn't surprised that people were skeptical because they didn't know. They didn't understand what it meant to lose your language,

what it meant to be separated from your family for years, and all of the terrible consequences that resulted from our time in residential schools. In my case, 10 years, there are people that spent more time than I did and suffered undoubtedly greater harm than I had to endure. But I wasn't trying to paint myself as some kind of hero with a very unique experience. But it was obvious that it was important for people

not to feel that they were the only ones that had suffered, that there were others and that they would be supported by other people. And their determination and efforts to come to grips with this terrible story. How do you think the way your story is received has changed from then until now? Well, gosh, we've had an apology from the Canadian government in 2008. Today, we recognize that this policy of assimilation was wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our country.

We are invited to the Vatican, the very first time the Vatican ever took steps to try and learn about the residential school experience. We had an entire chapter in the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples report devoted to the residential school experience. We've had the historic Indian residential school settlement agreement. We've had the TRC and the 94 Calls to Action. So people, Canadians, I might say generally, are coming to understand and have become better informed about a large part of Canadian history that has been missing in our schools. Now, kids are learning about residential schools, probably at every level of the school system, the education system. And that's really good. It's important because the children are now being thought and are learning about the true history of Canada.

We no longer have to learn about this distortion in Canadian history. It's like this notion that Canada has two founding peoples, the French and the English. How about the first peoples, right? So that's an important challenge for the Canadian government and the education system to start teaching us what is true about Canada

and truly important to Canada's future. Mr. Fontaine, I want to thank you so much for making the time to speak with me today for this conversation. I'm very, very grateful. Thank you. Thank you, Jamie. I hope you have a wonderful evening. All right, so today, Pope Francis is headed to Quebec City. On Friday, he'll depart for Ihaloi, the last stop on what he's described as a penitential pilgrimage. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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