Front Burner - Photo shows Liberal leader Justin Trudeau in brownface

Episode Date: September 19, 2019

A photograph of Justin Trudeau in brownface and wearing a turban at a 2001 “Arabian Nights”-themed costume party was published in TIME Wednesday night. Soon after, Trudeau apologized, saying he now realizes it was “racist.” Today on Front Burner, Vassy Kapelos, host of Power & Politics, joins us talk about the reaction to the news and political fallout for a leader who has positioned himself as a champion of diversity and inclusion.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. So last night, Time magazine dropped a bombshell, a photograph of Justin Trudeau in brownface. Today, Vashie Capellos, host of Power and Politics, is here. I'm Jamie Poisson. This is FrontBurner. Hi, Vashie.

Hey, Jamie. Wow. Wow is right. That was a shocking development. Yeah, definitely. I think you and I have mentioned how there's kind of been an absence of moments that turn the dial or that change things. And this is definitely it. And this certainly looks like something that could move the needle.

I want to get into that with you a little bit later. But first, let's talk about this picture. Describe this picture to me. I'm looking at the picture right now. This is a picture that was published in Time, as you mentioned. Mr. Trudeau is flanked kind of by three women, if you're looking at it head on, to the left of him, as well as another woman to the right. He's dressed up completely and including his hands painted in, I guess, brown face. He says that he put makeup on himself.

This was at a party when he was 29 years old in 2001 at the school he attended or he was teaching at at the time. A private school in BC. Yeah, it's called West Point Grey Academy Community. And how do we think Time got this photograph? Well, they're very explicit about it, actually. They say that earlier this month, they obtained a copy of the yearbook in which this photo was. The photo was in the yearbook. The yearbook was called The View, and they got it from a Vancouver businessman, they say, named Michael Adamson, who was part of the West Point

Grey Academy, quote unquote, community. He was not at the party. The party was attended by school faculty, administrators, and parents of students. And he said, Mr. Adamson, that he first saw the photograph back in July and felt it should be made public. Okay. So that's how they got it. Okay. And, you know, I will say in this photograph,

Justin Trudeau is certainly wearing the most intricate costume of the bunch. He is the only person in brownface. Yes, absolutely. And it says his spokespeople say it was a photo taken while he was teaching in Vancouver at the school's annual dinner, which had a costume theme of Arabian Nights. He attended with friends and colleagues and he was dressed as a character from Aladdin. OK, so very quickly after the story broke, which I think was just after dinnertime, Justin Trudeau responded. And here is what he had to say last night in Halifax. Was this photo racist in your opinion? Yes. Yes, it was. I didn't consider it a racist action at

the time. But now we know better. And this was something that was unacceptable. And yes, time. But now we know better. And this was something that was unacceptable. And yes, racism. Why should you be allowed to stay? I'm going to be asking Canadians to forgive me for what I did. I shouldn't have done that. I take responsibility for it. It was a dumb thing to do. I'm disappointed in myself. I'm pissed off at myself for having done it. I wish I hadn't done it, but I did it. And I apologize for it. Primarily, to put it into some sort of wider context, you have to remember the last time I was speaking to you, Jamie, we were talking about candidates. And the Liberals' criticism of Andrew Scheer's position,

which was if stuff has happened in the past and you say sorry about it, people can be forgiven. Right. As long as someone takes responsibility for what they said and addresses the fact that in 2019, some things that may have been said in the past are inappropriate today. He was resoundingly criticized by not only Justin Trudeau, but the Liberal Party for saying that last night. That's exactly what Justin Trudeau asked. Right. For forgiveness. For forgiveness, because he regretted his actions. He has moved

on since then. And he thinks differently now, and he apologized. Right, and he said he should have known better. And I will say, a very significant piece of information that came out of that press conference, Justin Trudeau admitted that he had actually done this before. Mr. Trudeau, is that the only time in your life you've ever done something like that? When I was in high school, I dressed up at a talent show and sang Dale with makeup on. Yeah. And then actually, even beyond admitting of the second instance, at the end of the press conference, another reporter asked whether or not there was anything beyond those two incidents. And I just want to read exactly what he said.

Because the reporter asked, do you want to tell Canadians about any other instances where you were concerned you were racist? I think it's been plenty. The fact of the matter is that I've always, and you'll know this, been more enthusiastic about costumes than is sometimes appropriate. But these are the situations that I regret deeply. Is it the only two or are there more? These are the situations I regret deeply.

He's not unequivocally saying no, which immediately sort of makes me question if there are more. Right, and this idea about him being enthusiastic about costumes, I mean, I'm not entirely sure what he was referring to. I thought maybe he was referring to his India trip. Yeah. Which he was widely and roundly criticized for, wearing, you know, very elaborate outfits with his wife and family.

You know, I want to get into some of the reaction here. In a minute, we're going to talk about Andrew Scheer and sort of get into this back and forth that we've been talking about. You know, these parties have been criticizing each other for how they've been responding to, like, other problem candidates. But I think the most important response that we need to talk about tonight is from Jagmeet Singh himself. And he was the first of the party leaders to respond. Of course, he himself wears a turban. And Justin Trudeau is wearing a turban in this photograph from 2001. I want to play for you first what he had to say before Trudeau's apology.

Any time we hear examples of brownface or blackfacing, it's really, it's making a mockery of someone for what they live and what the relived experiences are. I think he needs to answer for it. I think he's got to answer the question why he did that and what does that say about what he thinks about people who, because of who they are, because of the color of their skin, face challenges and barriers and obstacles in their life. And Vashi, I also want to play you a clip from Jagmeet later in the night. He came back on for another statement.

Jagmeet Singh was visibly emotional. I faced a lot of racism in my life, and I can be honest with you, I fought back when I faced racism. I fought back with my fists. But there's a lot of people that weren't able to do that. One of my friends told me how that weren't able to do that. One of my friends told me how he wasn't able to do that. And seeing this image today, the kids that see this image, the people that see this image, are going to think about all the times in their life

that they were made fun of, that they were hurt, that they were hit, that they were insulted, that they were made to feel less because of who they are. And I want to talk to those people right now. I want to talk to all the kids out there, all the folks who live this and now are grown up and are still feeling the pain of racism. I want you to know that you might feel like giving up on Canada. You might feel like giving up on yourselves.

I want you to know that you have value, you have worth, and you are loved. And I don't want you to give up on Canada, and please don't give up on yourselves. Vashi, thoughts on Singh's response here, his responses? Well, I think it's obvious that he's coming from a perspective that so many political leaders are not and unique, especially all out attack on the prime minister, rather sort of focusing on the impact, which kind of gets lost in the conversation around politics of the hurtful nature of what those what that photo represents. And, of course, you know, he can speak to it better than better than I can. And he did. And I just think that it's it's a kind of seminal moment for him in this campaign, for sure. Absolutely. And he also said at the end that he'll let the public decide whether Trudeau's apology was sufficient. He wasn't going to comment on that.

Yeah, which is, I mean, a very specific way of answering these questions. He could have gone up and said he should resign. He could have said this is unacceptable. He could have said a lot of things. I think he spoke from his own experience and from his own perspective. And like I said, it's such a unique one that it made what he said so genuine. The other party leaders responded as well. Elizabeth May said she was shocked. You know, this was before the apology that Trudeau gave. She said he had to apologize and to commit to learning and appreciating the requirement to model social justice leadership at all levels of government. And then you and I are speaking just after 9.30 p.m. Andrew Scheer just gave a very brief statement outside his plane. I believe he's in Montreal right now?

Sherbrooke. Sherbrooke, just outside Montreal. And let's talk about what he said. So he had learned, he was in Ontario in the GTA, and he had learned of this prior to taking off, but decided to wait until Mr. Trudeau made his comments before making his own. The plane touched down, he walked right off and gave the comments. Like all Canadians, I was extremely shocked and disappointed when I learned of Justin Trudeau's actions this evening. Wearing brownface is an act of open mockery and racism. It was just as racist in been and it is right now. He did acknowledge, of course, that it was racist. But I think the point that, you know, Mr. Scheer and other critics are making right now is that he should have known it then, too. I mean, he was a teacher. He was 29 years old. Should have known this in 2001.

You know, as you mentioned earlier, and also you and I spoke about this earlier in the week for a podcast, Scheer has been reacting to revelations that some of his candidates have said incendiary things on social media in the past. Seven conservatives have been called out for old social media posts or comments deemed controversial, homophobic or racist.

And, you know, he said that he would evaluate on a case by case basis, but also that he was willing to forgive people if they apologized. I accept that. You know, I accept the fact that people can make mistakes in the past. And, you know, it does sound from his statement tonight that that is not the tack he is taking with Justin Trudeau. No, I'm pretty sure that, I mean, from a political standpoint, putting aside a lot of the very serious issues that have come up, I mean, this is something that the conservatives will most certainly want to seize on. And, you know, to be fair, understandably so, right?

Like they've just spent a week and a half being browbeaten by the liberals saying that they are associating with racists and not showing the integrity that they should by kicking those candidates out. And at the same time, this photo exists. Right, right. And let's talk about that for a minute. The idea that, you know, the reason that Andrew Scheer was responding to a lot of these incendiary comments that had been unearthed is because they had been unearthed by the liberals themselves. And, you know, the liberals have implied that these candidates are not fit to run. They have also gone after Andrew Scheer for things he said in the past about gay marriage, for example. So, you know, are you hearing any reaction from the liberal party right now? You know, Trudeau knew this picture of himself was out there, I imagine. So by liberal standards, how must they be looking at their own guy right now?

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I've heard from the war room quite a bit since this all broke, and they are very much trying to spin this as he, you know, he did the right thing. He came out and apologized. I think that I've also heard from a lot of liberals who are outside the war room who are deeply, deeply disappointed in this. They are shocked. They did not expect this in any way designed to take away from the inappropriateness, at a bare minimum, of some of the comments that those people made in their social media history. But if you just picture for a second Andrew Scheer in brownface and the reaction that you could anticipate from the liberals and from Justin Trudeau, if that were the case, I would bet, I don't even know the small amount of money I have, that they would be calling for him to resign. would bet, I don't even know the small amount of money I have, that they would be calling for him to resign. And I think that underscores politically the real issue for the liberals in this. I think people can be forgiven. I think people make mistakes in their past. But when you have professed that you are the best champion for diversity, for measures that fight against racism. As we look to what makes our community strong,

one of the best examples is right here, our diversity. And all those things. And you've painted the other guys as the opposite. It's going to do a lot of damage. Seeing this photo just strikes so much at the core of the brand he has developed for himself and his party. And that's why it's, I mean, it's just on the face of it, of course, it's awful and it's damaging. But politically, it hits exactly at the same type of thing SNC did, right? This, I'm doing things differently. I'm the best proponent of these things.

I will defend Canadian values like no other. It turns out that's not exactly the whole story. Right. You know, I want to talk about how big this, the potential fallout could be here. You know, in the U.S., we've seen photographs of politicians surface in blackface. And just this year, we saw the Republican Secretary of State in Florida, Michael Erdl, resign after a 2005 photo of him in blackface emerged. There's a photo

from Virginia Governor Ralph Northam's yearbook that showed him in either blackface or in a KKK hood. There are two people in this picture, and he said he couldn't remember

which one he was. And this led many people to call for his resignation, but he is still governor today. Trudeau was asked tonight. Have you given thought to resign? I take responsibility for my decision to do that. I shouldn't have done it. I should have known better. Do you think it's possible that the pressure mounts so heavily here that a resignation might be a real conversation in the middle of an election campaign? I mean, I've been wrong before, but I would doubt it. He didn't seem to show any signs of

wanting to go down that path. I think, however, if there are other photos, if there are other images, if there is some sort of pattern here that is not limited to this one instance and the other one that he admitted, I can't predict exactly how that unfolds. I think that's sort of a different assessment. But on the face of it tonight, he doesn't appear to want to step down or resign or even consider it at this point. And do we have a sense of how long the liberal camp may have known about this photo? I'm so glad you bring that up because actually, I think it's really unclear. It sounds like the war room was notified earlier today. But he was asked a few times, you know, why didn't you bring this up early?

All those examples that you brought up, for example, like why didn't you say something then when you knew this existed? I don't know if he knew where the photo was or that it formally existed, but he posed for the picture. Right. So he would have known that he did this and was probably in a photo. Did you tell people that? Does your team around you know that? It was really unclear, I found, after all those questions. He didn't provide a specific answer. He just said that the magazine let them know earlier today.

Okay. Well, I think, as you just said, we have to wait and see what happens. This is all happening very fast. And I think we'll also have to wait to see how people all across this country are going to respond to this. But tonight, Vashi, thank you so much for having this conversation. And I will talk to you soon. Thanks so much, Jamie. Thank you. So even after Vashi and I spoke last night around 11 p.m., CTV released a photograph, and the photograph appears to be of the event

that Trudeau was referencing in his press conference when he was talking about a second instance in which he was at a school talent show, dressed up, he sang Deo with makeup on. That's all for today. Although we are following this developing story, thank you so much for listening to FrontBurner and see you tomorrow.