Front Burner - Police, a private spa, and more from Ford’s Ontario

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

Ontario Premier Doug Ford has announced new measures to get more police “boots on the ground,” including covering the costs of mandatory training and scrapping the post-secondary education requirement to be hired as an officer. Ford has also been making headlines for his plans for the redevelopment of a parcel of public land on Toronto’s waterfront which include a sprawling private spa. Today, provincial affairs reporter Mike Crawley brings guest host Alex Panetta up to speed on both issues, and discusses the role Ford could play in Toronto’s upcoming mayoral election. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

Happy Holidays! I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic, and I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's Continuous Professional Learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals in learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Alex Panetta.

If you don't support our police, and we're seeing stabbings in the subway, car thefts coming out of our gazoo, and just enough's enough. We've got to put more money into policing. If you've been hearing about Ontario Premier Doug Ford lately, you're probably hearing about one of two things. One, his latest changes to policing in the province. We need reinforcements. We need more police officers on our streets. As we say, boots on the ground.

Two, his big plan for the redevelopment of a parcel of public land on Toronto's waterfront known as Ontario Place, which includes a sprawling private spa. This is, first of all, going to be a world-class destination. You know, it doesn't come without bumps and hurdles. As one might imagine, his critics aren't impressed and are asking who these moves are actually for. Government side, come to order.

Failed, failed to show Ontarians what value this deal has for the people of this province. They've failed to produce the contracts. They've failed to provide the business case. Speaker, Ontarians deserve to know, and I'm going to go back to the Premier again, when will this government come clean about this backroom deal? Today, my colleague covering Ontario provincial affairs, Mike Crawley, is here to talk about what Ford's been up to lately and who benefits.

Hi, Mike. Hey, Alex. Okay, so before we get into the specifics of what Doug Ford has announced in terms of policing in Ontario, maybe you can start by giving me a bit of the context. So why is Ford out there talking about police and putting police boots on the ground, as he puts it right now? Well, he's been talking about a spike in crime. Here in Toronto, major crimes are up over 20% compared to the same time last year. People don't feel safe. Some are scared to take the subway or to go out for a walk. And there have certainly been a few high-profile violent crimes in Toronto as well in other parts of Ontario that have gotten a lot of public attention.

So there's a perception of a rise in crime and Ford's solution that he's proffering for this is to have more police out there. How accurate is the perception? Is it grounded in reality? Yeah, if you look at the stats, Alex, certainly the long-term trend for a long period of time in Canada, as in Ontario, as it is across North America, has been a decline in crime since the early 90s. But then things have changed a little bit in the past few years. And Statistics Canada does seem to suggest there's been a bit of an increase in violent crime since about 2015. But the degree to which there has been this increase is probably less than the perception and the fear, right? These high profile incidents, we cover them in the media, they draw a lot of attention and the political response in this case from Ford is, you know, we need more cops.

And there's certainly a debate about whether that's the right solution. Okay, so we know Doug Ford is a big supporter of the police and he's been vocal vocal about his appreciation for police. Even just a couple of months ago, when he was being grailed by reporters about his daughter's stag and doe party that was attended by developers, he said the majority of people there in attendance were actually cops, and that he supports them. And by the way, the vast majority of people were there. My daughters are all, well, three out of four are with police officers. The place was packed full of police officers. My daughters are all, well, three out of four are with police officers. The place was packed full of police officers. And by the way, they're champions.

We support them. And that's what I have to say. And, you know, I understand there are a few things he's announced here, and one of them has to do with covering police education costs. What's Ford's plan here? education costs. What's Ford's plan here? So everyone who works as a police officer in Ontario has to go through a course, constable training. It's provided at the Ontario Police College or the Toronto Police College. And what Doug Ford announced is free tuition at these colleges. And so that's about $15,000, that course. And it was, the officers were paying that. And it's not your typical, you know, university or college course. You actually

take it only once you've been hired. So it's a prerequisite to actually do the job. But you only go to that college once the police force has said, yeah, we're going to hire you. Then you go to it. But it's a significant cost to taxpayers. It's going to be somewhere between $20 and $30 million a year of free education for these police officers. Okay. So, yeah, in addition to free education, you've got another piece which has to do with the level of education you need to become a cop, right? Can you walk me through that? So what Ontario announced is that the government is not going to go ahead with the plan to increase the education that was required to serve as a police officer. So right now, what's on the books is you only actually need high school education to qualify as a police officer. But the government had actually brought in legislation a few years ago to increase that requirement. The legislation

actually passed. And what it said was you're going to have to have some post-secondary, either a degree or some actual college diploma. But then the government actually never enacted the legislation or brought it into force. So it was there on the books. And so the announcement was that Ontario would not move ahead with this. And the justification that I got from the government is that police forces and the police associations, the police unions had pushed back against this and said it was going to have an impact on their ability to recruit. So, you know, we'll get to the recruitment issue in a second, but I think it's worth noting that the Mass Casualty Commission in Nova Scotia, something Frontburner has covered extensively, looked at policing failures during the Portapique massacre. And one of their recommendations as to how policing should change is, well, it said the exact opposite of what Ford's doing here.

It said, you know, barely a month ago, uh, that, you know, more education would be useful for police officers. So why is that? Yeah, so the Mass Casualty Commission said that policing across Canada should require a standardized three-year post-secondary program. And the recommendation from the commission to the public safety minister, the federal public safety minister, was to work with the provinces to make this the requirement. The research that the commission did showed that police with higher levels of education were basically better trained to be police officers, to deal with alternatives to the use of force. And one of the examples that they put forward was Finland, which has a post-secondary requirement, and that was seen to be quite successful in reducing unjustified use of force by police officers.

Okay, so let's talk about the pretext for all of this is police struggling with recruitment. Are police even really struggling with recruitment. Are police even really struggling with recruitment? It's a really good question, Alex. I think the answer is it depends on what you mean by struggling. If you compare policing to, let's say, some professions that are really in acute recruitment struggles right now, like nursing, the childcare sector, even construction, you know, they are struggling to fill jobs. What the police forces are seeing is they are actually seeing fewer people apply to become police officers, but they're still getting dramatically more people applying than they have positions. So like, let's take, for example, Hamilton. They told us a couple of years ago that they would have 2,000 applicants and they're typically hiring, say, 30, 40, 50 cops in a given year. Last year, that came down to 1,000 people actually applying to be police officers. So there's no shortage of people who want to be police officers, but there is definitely a drop in the number of people applying.

So are we hearing anything from, say, nurses or other public sector workers about this idea that police get a free education, but not them? There was definitely a lot of complaint about that. And in the defense of the Ford government, they have brought in a few programs to incentivize some nursing training, for instance, and some training for personal support workers who would, for instance, work in nursing homes or in home care. But a lot of that is related to the location of where nurses would work. There's also some incentives, say, for doctors to work in some of the more rural and remote areas that relate to kind of rebating your education. But a blanket free tuition for police officers who, of course, you know, remember now only need high school education.

So they don't have to actually go to any sort of post-secondary like nurses and doctors do. There's a certain amount of resentment that the Ford government doesn't necessarily have its priorities in the right place. At least that's what we're hearing from people in the nursing sector. So I want to pivot now to another part of Ford's plan that's attracted a bit of controversy, and those are his plans for Ontario Place. So can you tell me, as a non-Ontarian, what was Ontario Place in its heyday, and what is it now? So Ontario Place is on the water on Lake Ontario. It's actually just fairly close to where I live, so I actually go past it and through it frequently. It's a lovely place to jog along. It's a gorgeous, real jewel on the waterfront.

The decision to go offshore gave the project a chance to grow and do something really worthwhile. It helped the architects come up with a completely new pavilion design, a building that takes advantage of both the land and the water. a building that takes advantage of both the land and the water. It's just to the west of downtown Toronto, and it's provincially owned land. It was developed in the early 70s under a progressive conservative government, and it had, and still has, a geodesic dome with an IMAX cinema inside it. Ladies and gentlemen, the next performance in Cinesphere begins in approximately 10 minutes. cinema inside it. There's a outdoor concert venue. And it gave us room to build boutiques and restaurants to include an 8,000 capacity outdoor amphitheater. And back in its heyday, it was a real destination for families. You know,

there was a outside water park and lots of places for kids to play. Very family oriented. And then over time, it kind of saw better days. And by the time I moved to Toronto in the late 2000s, it looked kind of sad. It had that feeling like an abandoned amusement park after they closed the water park. It just was kind of dead. And then the previous Liberal government actually closed it. They shut it down entirely for years because it was bleeding money and set about on a plan to redevelop it that basically took forever. The only thing that the previous Liberal government did was they redeveloped a small strip on the eastern side of it into a park. Gorgeous park, but there was still a whole bunch

of Ontario Place left with nothing really going on in it. So, you know, it stands to reason if you've got this public land sitting there kind of underused, well located, the Premier wants to change that. And what's his plan to do that? So Doug Ford had some really big ideas. He talked about wanting to turn Ontario Place into a world-class destination. And so they got elected in 2018. And over the course of time, there were various ideas being floated. There were concerns that potentially there was going to be some kind of development on it in the way of condos, possibly, maybe a casino. in the way of condos, possibly, maybe a casino.

Doug Ford has a bit of a track record of floating waterfront development ideas. When he was a city councillor in Toronto and his brother, the late Rob Ford, was mayor of Toronto, they had an idea for some city-owned land on the waterfront in Toronto to have a casino and a giant Ferris wheel. Some of the things that could be there. The world's largest Ferris wheel? Yeah, well, these are just visions and ideas that people have brought forward. What we'd like to do is have a monorail system that's running right from Pan Am Games, right along the lakefront, and stops at Union Station and Ontario Place, and right across the front of the lakefront and stops at Union Station and Ontario Place and right across the front of the lake.

And then the next stop would be the Mega Mall. It would be 1.6 million square feet, one of the most prestigious malls in Canada. We'd try to attract Nordstrom. So people's antennae were up about what is Doug Ford going to do with Ontario Place. So eventually, government had consultations. They appointed a special advisor about what to do with Ontario Place. And then over the course of the past year, started revealing the plans. We're building a world-class year-round destination.

You remember when we grew up, you could only come here in the summer. This is going to be a year-round destination that's fun for families and students and tourists to enjoy for generations to come. It'll be a place to open... Okay, so what is the plan? So right now the plan is a giant spa. Imagine a place of well-being that connects us, entertains us, and transforms us from something you dream about

into something we live. From a European spa company called Thermae. Welcome to Therma Canada Ontario Place. There would be a massive parking garage underneath. the spa would cover pretty much one third of the land of Ontario Place. There'd be a little strip of public access around the water's edge. But, you know, a big chunk of this property is being given over to a spa company on what has

been reported to be a 95 yearyear lease from the provincial government. Now, the province hasn't confirmed that, but they're not denying it either. Much of the rest of Ontario Place would be devoted to a redevelopment of the existing outdoor music venue. So that would be expanded. So you'd have about a third of the property covered by the spa, a third of the property covered by the outdoor music venue. And then some of the rest would be various park-like places, public access, and the presence of the Ontario Science Centre, which would move from its current location to Ontario Place. Right. And there has been some controversy over this Science Center part of the plan,

mostly centered on the affection for the building it's in now and the way it serves the neighborhood it's in now. But let's talk a bit more about the spa part of this plan. Why are critics unhappy with this idea? There's basically a feeling that a big chunk of publicly owned land right on the waterfront in Toronto is being handed over to a private company in a deal that we don't really know a lot about. So the government hasn't made public the lease. It's been reported that it's a 95-year lease, which is a long period of time to hand over public land to a private company. There's concern about the fact that taxpayers are going to be paying for the parking garage that's part of that building, almost half a billion dollars for the parking garage.

And there's just generally concern about the lack of public access to this part of Ontario Place. It would mean that if you want to go there, you've got to pay to go into the spa. And is that really what public land on the waterfront should be all about? Happy Holidays! I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic, and I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted.

Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's continuous professional learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals and learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial

vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Okay, and we played a clip at the beginning of this episode of the opposition NDP leader, Marit Stiles, saying basically this was a backroom deal he made with a private company on public land. And I wonder if part of the frustration you're hearing from his critics is basically part of a broader perception or critique of Ford and his relationship with the private sector and how he weighs that against the public interest. This has been one of the knocks against Doug Ford pretty much since he became premier. For instance, he said he would never touch the green belt, protected land around the greater Toronto area. Unequivocally, we won't touch the green belt. Unlike other governments

that don't listen to people, I've heard it loud and clear. People don't want me touching the greenbelt, we won't touch the greenbelt. But then just last fall announced that some chunks of the greenbelt were going to be exempted. And so developers who owned the property could build housing on it. We're developing right butt up against existing communities. One side of the road, there's communities, there's houses. On the other side of the road, there's a field. His mantra during the first election was for the people, but some of the first things that the government did when they took power was to scrap increases to the minimum wage, make it more difficult to join unions. So there's, you know, clearly a perception out there that Doug Ford does things that favor big business. And so, you know, anytime that there are deals that happen that, you know, could be seen to be good for the interests of business, people are, you know,

naturally going to kind of question whether the public interest is actually being served. Doug Ford still retains some political popularity, a fair bit of it. He's got some juice and I'm just wondering about his own role in the Toronto mayoral campaign. So let's talk a bit about this by-election to replace John Tory, who resigned in the winter over an extramarital affair with a staffer. And interestingly, the two stories we've talked about today, I understand they intersect in one particular mayoral candidate. Can you talk to me about that. So I mentioned that the government had hired a special advisor on Ontario Place. Well, that special advisor was Mark Saunders, the former police chief of Toronto, also a former PC candidate in the last election, and also a mayoral candidate in this coming election. What is happening in our city? Crime and disorder is out of control, and the city politicians are failing us. I'm Mark Saunders, and I'm running to be your mayor. I was a cop for 38 years, and I've never seen things this bad.

So Doug Ford, you know, at the very beginning said that he wasn't going to get involved in the mayoral race. I'll work with anyone. So it doesn't matter who gets elected. And I'm staying out of that election. So good luck to all of them. I encourage you to run and all the very best. It's tough putting your name forward. But then very quickly afterwards, he started stating his opinion, at least. Well, if a lefty mayor gets in there, God help the people of Toronto. And there was a couple candidates that are running, that are sitting councillors, that voted to defund the police. The people that voted to defund the police don't vote for them. Simple as that.

We can't have anarchy in our cities. simple as that. We can't have anarchy in our cities. People are being scared. A lot of what Doug Ford has said has kind of indicated that he's subtly, you know, implicitly, if not explicitly, actually endorsing Mark Saunders as the best person to be mayor of Toronto. And so I just referred earlier to, you know, Doug Ford and whether he's got any political juice in the city. So, you know, what effect do you think that could have, like his involvement in the campaign and what role do you see him playing? Well, look, he just won a majority. He is arguably the most powerful conservative politician in Canada. And, you know, he takes a great interest in what goes on at Toronto City Hall.

This is in part because of the time that he spent there as a councillor and a very close advisor to his brother when he was the mayor. Also, Doug Ford has done a lot of things as premier that have an impact on Toronto and how City Hall works. So, you know, one of his first acts was to cut down the size of Toronto City Council. His government recently brought in legislation to reduce the city's ability to charge developers fees for new infrastructure. Last year, Doug Ford agreed to give John Tory extra powers as mayor. We call them strong mayor powers. Effectively, what it means is whoever's mayor of Toronto can have their agenda move forward through council, even if they don't get a majority of councillors approving things. So basically, the mayor can pass bylaws on certain priorities, a lot of them related to housing, even if they only have one third of the council there. So all of this is related to stuff that the powerful premier has done.

And a lot of the debate in the mayoral by-election is about how the mayor, the new mayor, is going to relate with Doug Ford. How will they be able to negotiate with him? Will they be able to fight with him? Will the new mayor just do whatever it is that Doug Ford wants? So that's a big part of the debate that's going on with this mayoral campaign. Toronto mayoral election is June 26th. Doug Ford's term as premier lasts another three years. Thanks a lot, Mike.

You're welcome, Alex. I'm Alex Panetta. Thanks for tuning in. Talk to you all tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.