Front Burner - Political revolt amid LGBTQ changes in New Brunswick

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

This month, New Brunswick’s Department of Education announced changes to a policy meant to protect LGBTQ students. As of Saturday, the minister responsible says staff can’t call kids under 16 by their preferred pronouns or names unless they have parental permission, though the actual text of the changes differs. Premier Blaine Higgs has added to the controversy with misleading comments about coming out as transgender being “trendy” and the risks of gender-affirming care. For these changes and a number of Higgs’ past moves, two of his cabinet ministers have resigned, and more than half the party’s riding presidents have signed letters that could trigger a vote on his leadership. Today on Front Burner, CBC New Brunswick reporter Hadeel Ibrahim and provincial affairs reporter Jacques Poitras explain the upheaval amoung LGBTQ advocates and Higgs’ own MLAs, and the fears for backsliding of rights beyond the province. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Saroja Coelho. Mr. Speaker, we're seeing a rapid onset of gender dysphoria. It's expanded in the last several years, and it's becoming popular and trendy. What you're hearing is the top politician in New Brunswick, Premier Blaine Higgs,

in an address that is laden with misleading comments about trans people. He's defending changes to a policy that was designed to protect LGBTQ students. But as of this Saturday, his government says that children under 16 will need permission from their parents if school staff are going to use their preferred pronouns. It really came to light, Mr. Speaker, when the story time issues became more prevalent, more pronounced. When it came into policy in 2020, it kind of slid into the system without much being known about it. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association has said reviewing a policy like this is unprecedented in Canada. LGBTQ advocates say forcing kids to come out to unwelcoming parents is a real danger. And on the national stage, this has drawn fire from the Prime Minister.

Trans kids in New Brunswick are being told they don't have the right to be their true selves, that they need to ask permission. Well, trans kids need to feel safe, not targeted by politicians. And then there's the reaction from the official opposition. My message to Justin Trudeau is butt out and let provinces run schools and let parents raise kids. Some MLAs in Higgs' own party are in revolt over a long line of controversies, and it appears enough leaders have signed letters to trigger a vote on his leadership. So why is Blaine Higgs bent on

changes that critics are calling discriminatory? And what could this mean for the wider identity of conservative politics in Canada and the future of LGBTQ rights. To explain, I am joined today by two of my colleagues from New Brunswick. Hadil Ibrahim has been covering the impacts of the upcoming changes, and Jacques Poitras is the provincial affairs reporter. Hi, Hadil. Hi, Jacques. Hi. Hello. So, Hadil, I'm going to begin with you.

Policy 713 was originally enacted in 2020. The idea was to protect LGBTQ students. Then in May of this year, we found out that the education department under Premier Higgs was reviewing it. The next step to this story is that this month, what three specific changes were announced? So I'll start with the self-identification section of the policy. The original policy said that all school staff and teachers have to respect all children's chosen names and pronouns and use them regardless of age or parental consent.

It also stipulated that if a child under 16 wanted to change their name and pronoun officially in school records, they would have to get parental consent. But the principal has to explain to the child that means that their parents will have to be told about their identity. And if the child says no to including their parents, then the school would come up with a plan to continue to use their chosen name and pronoun informally and continue to use their birth names in official records. The new policy, it keeps the mandate to respect students' chosen names and pronouns, but only for kids who are 16 years old and older.

And the section about requiring parental consent for children under 16 for official changes is still there. And it says that if a child says no to including their parents, they now have to be, quote, directed to a school psychologist or social worker to come up with a plan to include their family if and when they're ready. So the minister says that that effectively means that while the child is working to include their parents, the teachers and school staff would have to continue using their birth name and pronoun, regardless of what they requested, even informally, verbally in the classroom. The second change was for the old policy said that kids should be able to participate in all extracurriculars in a safe and welcoming environment and that are consistent with

their gender identity. The Minister of Education removed the reference to consistent with their gender identity. So now it just ends at safe and welcoming. And the third change was actually considered a win for the LGBTQ community because they were worried that there would be changes to washroom access. But that policy remained pretty much the same. There was an addition of a requirement that each school would have to have at least one gender neutral or universal change room on top of the requirement that was already there for at least one gender neutral washroom. Jacques, I want to turn to you. Adding to this controversy, there has been Higgs' own comments

to defend these changes. What has he said about transgender youth and why he thinks these changes are necessary? Well, he has talked almost exclusively about the role of parents. And one of the striking things in almost all of his comments that Hadil pointed out to me, actually, you never hear him talk about the children or from the perspective of a trans student in schools. There was a very contentious scrum with a journalist at the legislature one day where he essentially was questioning the journalists in the scrum who were parents about their own parenting if they didn't understand where he was coming from on this. It's clear from this scrum is that you feel parents play no role in their child's

growing up and maturing. That seems to be the thing. We're asking questions. Yeah, well, I'm giving us a perception of what is very evident here. I'm curious how you square your concern. You know, some of his colleagues who have supported the review have allowed for the possibility that there would be cases where a student would not feel safe talking to their parents about their gender identity or their sexual orientation. But the premier himself, that has not entered the conversation. So that's where he's coming from. And then, you know, he's made comments in the legislature during the debate on an opposition motion on this

where he talked about gender dysphoria and said we have a situation that's growing because there's been such acceptance that this is fine. And, Mr. Speaker, there's also great evidence, I would say, that in later years, when major surgeries have been done, when we see situations where there have been physical changes made and you can't go back, they're irreversible, that we see Europe looking at this now and saying, whoa, what's happening here? Because the suicide rate in those age groups is going up dramatically. And so those are comments that have really provoked strong reaction from advocates. I'm going to go back to Hadil for that, because you're quite right, Jacques.

Hadil, just to be clear here, what does the research say about why we are seeing more youth come out as transgender? So there is a need for more research on this because it is a fairly recent phenomenon, I guess, where there's a big increase in the number of young people who identify as transgender. But the experts that I spoke to, psychologists, pediatricians, they said that there's no evidence that there's this idea of social contagion or this kind of rapid onset temporary gender identity confusion. I don't think it's so much of like a contagion, you know, like my child's friend was trans, so now they think they're trans. I just think that children who have and teens that have things in common, tend to spend time together.

What the experts are saying is, like, most likely, and the leading theory is that there's been an increase in representation, an increase in acceptance, and a decrease in discrimination, a relative decrease in discrimination, that is encouraging people to be more open about their identity. So it's not necessarily increasing the number of transgender kids, it's just allowing them to be more visible. Jacques, do you think you could give me a bit of a backstory on Higgs? Before he came to the Conservative Party, where was he from and how did he spend his career? Well, his professional career was with Irving Oil, which is a very well-known,

high-profile company in New Brunswick. They run Canada's largest oil refinery, which is where he worked in a senior management role. The other thing about Blaine Higgs is he was part of, in effect, a protest party in the late 1980s. He ran for the leadership of the Confederation of Regents Party, which was an offshoot of the Progressive Conservatives back when they were divided on a number of questions, including official bilingualism. And they were briefly the official opposition in New Brunswick and sort of populist, small-c conservative, and very vehemently opposed to New Brunswick's official bilingualism, which is entrenched in the Constitution. So when he ran for the Progressive Conservatives in 2010,

he'd never held elective office. He joined the PC party that year to run. So he's always been regarded by some in the party, moderates and francophones in particular, with a bit of wariness as a visitor to the party who isn't necessarily someone who really has always appreciated the sort of the bedrock values of the party as a center party, a party that tries to bridge language differences and tries to be moderate in its approach. I want to go straight to some of his personal beliefs, things that he's brought with him. Both of you have covered his beliefs on abortion. beliefs, things that he's brought with him. Both of you have covered his beliefs on abortion. What have you seen there? Well, for one thing, you know, in 2014, the new Liberal Premier made a change to abortion regulations where he eliminated a requirement that a woman had to have

the consent of two doctors to get an abortion covered by Medicare in a hospital. And Blaine Higgs, then an opposition member, gave a very impassioned speech where his personal views was clear that he was against it and would be called, you know, anti-abortion or pro-life. So I asked that, you know, is there a right to end life? And in many cases, you have to say, we believe in all other aspects of society, there is not a right to end life. Is it convenient? Well, yes, it seems that we think it is. My question is to the Premier. As Premier, he's made that view clear, although he hasn't turned back any policies. He has also resisted a sort of growing push for more access. Well, there's also a lot of growing discontent around him, certainly a vibrant debate happening within the party.

Before the 7-13 changes this month, which have been the most controversial? Well, there are quite a number, but one is, you know, English schools in New Brunswick. There's a French immersion program, a second language program for English kids to learn French. The government decided last fall that they would replace that with a new program that there were a lot of labels attached to it, but in fact it was going to mean a lot less second language French instruction in English schools. And there was a huge reaction to that. For the third time in two weeks, New Brunswick's education minister found himself in the hot seat over proposed changes to French immersion, over 300 people filling the room for the latest consultation.

The government did eventually back down because it was clear that it was costing them dearly. So those are in some of the discussion about Policy 713, where some people within his party have talked about his, you know, his lack of consultation, his unwillingness to listen to experts, to civil servants, to people within his own cabinet and caucus. They've also said that the same thing happened with this French immersion change. Hadil, I'm going to come to you. Let's get into the current reaction over Policy 713. This month, six of Higgs' MLAs actually revolted and voted for the province's child and youth advocate to do a full consultation on the changes that have been suggested specifically around transgender children. So just before this, what did the advocate himself have to say? So the child and youth advocate came out with a reaction report calling for a complete reversal of all the changes.

He said the changes in the new policy is shoddy and unclear. The minister's interpretation is not totally borne out by the written policy. So he also said that specifically the new changes on self-identification can be inadvertently discriminatory because it basically adds a specific special rule for name changes if the child was transgender. And there's no other, you know, similar rules for if it was a nickname. Now you have two different processes. So if Kelly says, could you call me Kel? That isn't covered. The people just respect that. But if there is a situation where somebody is choosing a name and you suspect it might be for gender identity purposes,

you have a whole different process and new barriers. That's textbook legal discrimination. Meanwhile, we've had response from people who work directly with children. I mean, clearly this has caused an eruption of conversation and dissent. What have school psychologists had to say about these changes? So school psychologists and social workers were mentioned by name in the amended policy, and they said that they were not consulted. If they were, they would say that this is not something that they would want to participate in.

So they came out with a statement saying that denying a child's request for a specific pronoun to be used can cause harm, that misgendering children can increase the risk of self-harm and suicide. And they said that they would not basically would not be following this policy. And their union has filed two grievances against the policy, saying that it is unclear and it also coerces psychologists and social workers into contravening the Human Rights Act. So they are asking that these changes don't apply to them because they don't want to be complicit in harming children. I came out at school first just because it was a more comfortable space. One of my friends would most likely get kicked out of their house and another one could be at risk of physical abuse. Like, that's the reality of the situation

and that's what this policy was originally trying to prevent. A simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

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That was Social Development Minister Dorothy Shepard. And what did she say about what was the breaking point for her? Jacques, I'll come to you for that. She said that Policy 713 and the process on it, you know, the way the premier didn't listen to his caucus and cabinet was the last straw for her. But she made it clear that it was really just the latest in a series of these examples. I resigned because there is no process. Cabinet and caucus are routinely dismissed. I have been struggling with this since October of 2021. I have had colleagues and friends encourage me to stay in the inner circle, to do the best I can do. I feel I've done that, but I've run out of runway.

There's no accomplishing anything more. She actually released a letter that she'd written to him a couple of years ago, where she said that, you know, he often ignores what civil servants and experts are telling him, what his caucus is telling him, and is sort of influenced by the last person he spoke to who plants some idea in his mind that happens to conform with his existing way of thinking. And then a minister or some staff in a department have to spend time kind of getting him off that idea and back to square one, and then they have to start over explaining issues. So that seems to be the common diagnosis. But the revolt against Higgs hasn't ended where you're describing it. In fact, I'm seeing lots of little fires here on the political landscape. Jacques, how have we seen MLAs and riding associations pushing for a leadership review, which essentially could

lead to the ousting of Higgs? That's right. I mean, this has been going on in two tracks. There was in the legislature with the caucus and the cabinet. That's kind of where it's at now because he's shuffled his cabinet. But then separate from that, but influenced by it obviously, is grassroots party members. There's thousands of them in the province and they have been, the presidents of the riding associations have been signing letters asking for a leadership review. Now, it's a long process and there's several steps, but the first trigger of that would be 20 riding association presidents signing this letter. Well, they've surpassed 26, I think, at last count. That's more than a majority of the ridings in the province. So there is a considerable

amount of support within the party to push forward and eventually get to a convention where party members would vote on whether they want to remove him as leader. But there are a lot of steps to go through, and I don't think we can take for granted that that vote would succeed, but there's certainly a growing constituency for that within the party. I want to take a bit of a cynic's view here, because I'm not entirely understanding sticking to things like reducing or reviewing rights available for transgender children in the midst of all of this discontent and conversation. Is it possible that transgender children are being used as a piece of political leverage? Because I'm not really sure that kids are at the center of this conversation. Well, I'll say this.

He has backed down in the past. So we talked about French immersion and how he backed down on that. There were some difficult hospital reforms that were announced in 2020 that he backed down on when it looked like he would lose a confidence vote in the legislature. On this one, he has stuck to it. It potentially could force an election. That's a possibility. It's a possibility.

Would you do that? It's not without the realm of possibility. I believe that strongly in the case of finding a solution here where we do not exclude parents in their child's life. I mean, we could analyze that as a political move because maybe there is a lot of support among some conservatives, among the party base. They are getting a lot of emails from different groups that are voicing support for what he's doing. Just today, I saw an email from a religious conservative activist who was asking her supporters to sign on to say they support Blaine Higgs on this. her supporters to sign on to say they support Blaine Higgs on this. So they may be reading it as something that will help them win an election. But, you know, there's some debate about that

because it's those voters in the middle who didn't vote for him in 2018, but who voted for him in 2020 because they liked his handling of COVID. Where would they go in an election fought on this? It's really hard to say. Hadil, I want to broaden this out nationally. We've talked about what's happening in the United States with politicians attacking trans rights and how that discourse has then enabled the emergence of extremist views. So why are there fears, as this discussion unfolds in New Brunswick, that the discrimination could spread outside the province? So it's the fact that there is a rise in anti-transgender sentiment, not only in the U.S.,

but also in Canada, generally anti-LGBTQ sentiment, but it seems to be really focused on transgender people. In this case, in New Brunswick, this is the first time in the country that an elected politician is kind of using some talking points that we are hearing in places like Florida, where there was a ban on transgender care for children under 18. He's not going that far. But basically, what advocates are saying is any challenge to the right of these vulnerable children, any talk about bringing them back or rolling them back is really scary because they are the most recent rights that have been asserted. And so with an elected politician saying things like, you know, gender dysphoria is trendy and popular and, you know, lamenting the risk of children getting hormone treatment and then regretting it later,

not addressing that there are safeguards in place and that actually surgery can only be done on people 18 and over. All of that is kind of scaring people because it's adding to those talking points. Well, you're speaking there really to an information and misinformation campaign that is very effective when it comes to issues like this. The murkier it gets, the more frightening it is for people. What is happening with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association in the meantime? Right, so they are making an announcement today. I don't know exactly what they will be announcing, but before the review results were announced,

they said that they would seriously consider legal action depending on what the results are. They've told me that their lawyers have been reviewing the changes. They've been talking with the local LGBTQ organizations and they said they might either file their own legal action or support a legal action on behalf of a local organization. They're already suing the province for abortion access. So I guess they're kind of familiar with the landscape here. Ultimately, this comes down to a question about what parents have the right to know about their

child versus the rights of children to safely make decisions about their own identity. What are experts saying about why children's rights need to take precedence? Why what's happening to them emotionally and psychologically is really where we should be placing our concentration. Well, experts are saying the way that children transition, if they are questioning their gender identity, they would usually open up first in an informal way at school or among their friends or to one trusted adult. And teachers can be that trusted adult. And that is just the first step in coming into their identity. So if the parent is going to be supportive, experts say, you know, your kid will tell you eventually.

Also, there's this fear that this is going to, you know, start them off on a path that's permanent, that they might regret and making decisions based on like social media and things like that. But the psychological experts that I spoke to are saying that using a different pronoun is a natural part of a child's discovery of their identity. So not every kid who's going to use a different pronoun is going to be a trans child. Allowing them to explore that will help them know. We also don't have any evidence that, quote unquote, indulging that request will hurt them. It causes harm to reject

this request. And there's no proven harm to using the pronoun informally. I want to thank you both for helping us understand what's happening in New Brunswick and what it might mean for the wider country. Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. Thank you. And that's it for this edition of FrontBurner. I'm Saroja Coelho. Thanks for listening.