Front Burner - Pro-democracy leader Nathan Law flees Hong Kong over ‘politics of fear’

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

The broad and ambiguous offences under China's new national security law have Hong Kongers censoring themselves, fearing a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. Pro-democracy protesters are holding up blank sheets. Cafes are stripping their messages of support. One of Hong Kong's most prominent and outspoken activists, too, has left the territory altogether. Today on Front Burner, pro-democracy activist Nathan Law joins us from an undisclosed location. He'll take us through the years of unrest leading up to China's crackdown, and how these measures threaten the unique freedoms that came with living in Hong Kong.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I want you to have a listen to what a protest in Hong Kong sounded like this week, now that China's sweeping new national security law is in place. That score is of pro-democracy protesters

lining the railing of a mall, motionless, holding up blank pieces of paper without a word on them. Because the simple slogans we're used to hearing from these protests, like Liberate Hong Kong, could now earn them criminal charges. Police in Hong Kong have made their first arrest under a new national security law. Carrying a flag that said Hong Kong independence. People in Hong Kong have long enjoyed freedoms not found in mainland China.

But the new security law threatens them dramatically. It outlaws separatism, subversion, terrorism, and collusion with foreign countries, meaning that criticism of Beijing could lead to imprisonment, even life sentences. It has the support of Hong Kong's chief executive, and on Tuesday, Carrie Lam even said that it's brought stability to the region. This is not doom and gloom for Hong Kong. I'm sure with the passage of time and efforts and the facts being laid out, confidence will grow in one country, two systems. But for activists,

the new law casts a dark shadow on Hong Kong. Today I come out and chant out, end one-party dictatorship. Knowing full well that probably I'll get arrested or- There's no longer a meaningful distinction between the system of Hong Kong and that of China. It's even caused one of the most prominent figures of the pro-democracy movement to flee the city. Nathan Law was a student leader in the 2014 Umbrella Movement and went on to become Hong Kong's youngest lawmaker at just 23 years old.

He served time in jail for his involvement in the protests, but remained on the front lines of the demonstrations. Now it's unclear if he will ever return home. Today, our conversation with Nathan Law. I'm Josh Bloch, and this is FrontBurner. Hi, Nathan. Thank you for joining us. No, thanks for the invitation. Hi Nathan, thank you for joining us. No, thanks for the invitation. So you're speaking to us from an undisclosed location. Can you just talk about why you don't want to reveal where you are right now?

Yeah, we all understand how far-reaching China could be. So for now, there are some uncertainties concerning my personal safety. So I would love to reveal my whereabouts and conduct public events once I kind of like fix out what the situation is. You know, you spent your entire life pushing for democracy in Hong Kong. You have been in jail, you've faced police violence, you've been attacked by pro-Beijing protesters. You faced a lot of adversity.

Like why after all that, have you decided that you needed to leave now? Yes, because after the national security law is implemented, the room for international advocacy work on the ground in Hong Kong has been largely limited. And I think this is crucial for Hong Kong because we indeed need the help from the international community to really hold China accountable and to stop this human rights violation. If we continue to do what we have been doing, then this will definitely be seen as breaching the national security law and leads to years of imprisonment. And this law is tailor-made for targeting the freedom of expression and making people afraid of speaking something that they are entitled to do so. So for me, leaving Hong Kong is actually more than a personal choice. It's a strategic move for the movement.

I imagine it was a very difficult decision, though, for you to make this choice, to leave the city that you're from. for you to make this choice, to leave the city that you're from. Yes, definitely. Leaving the city means that you have to leave behind a lot of connections, families, friends, and possibly you're not going to see them in a very long future. But for me, even though I understand that it's really, really difficult and painful to make the choice, I think it's for the greater good. Nathan, I want to get a sense of what's actually at stake here for Hong Kong with this national security law. I mean, first of all, what is it about that place that you want to try and

preserve and uplift? In 1997, Hong Kong was handed back to Chinese government by the British government with the promise that Hong Kong people will back to Chinese government by the British government with the promise that Hong Kong people will enjoy autonomy and democracy. A century and a half of British rule in Hong Kong is simply history tonight. China is in charge now. As for Hong Kong, it can only hope that as a new uncertain era of its history begins, these people are here to protect them, not police. Back then, Hong Kong people did not believe that it would work out under the communist ruling. So democracy and autonomy were promised to Hong Kong people, and we have been waiting China to fulfill its promises, but it hasn't. For now, we are still in an undemocratic society

that we cannot elect our chief executive. And also our autonomy are being eroded by the Chinese government getting more and more intervention into our affairs. And for now, under the national security law, our freedom of expression, one of the most treasured freedom for Hong Kong people, is demolished. On the very first day of the implementation of national security law, we witnessed that there were several cases of people merely in possession of the flags and stickers that have the slogans on them, arrested. More than 300 arrests all told, some for alleged violations of Beijing's new sedition law.

Possession of items calling for Hong Kong's independence from China. Just because they are exercising their freedom of speech, the government just announced that one of the slogans of the movement will be seen as a breach of the law and could lock you in jail for years. And people now, they are doing self-censorship. And also the library are unshelfing, are taking off books from the pro-democracy activists, even though those books are not relevant to the current movement. So we are now entering another era.

It's no longer a one country, two system. We are under the autocratic ruling of China. And that is the problem. You have repeatedly said that it will be a tiny minority of people who could be prosecuted and targeted by this law. Are you anticipating dozens of people being prosecuted? Hundreds? Thousands? I would rather not to arrest or prosecute anybody if everybody abides by the law. The purpose of this piece of legislation is not just to punish.

It is also to deter. Nathan, you've been involved in pro-democracy activism since becoming a student leader in the Umbrella Movement in 2014. Which, you know, is pretty much your entire adult life. I want to ask you a little bit about your own story as an activist. Can you tell me, for you, the moment you were taken up by the ideals and the cause of pro-democracy in Hong Kong? I've never thought of becoming a politician or a legislator when I was young.

I've been living quite a humble life. I have been living in public housing provided by the government and my parents are blue-collar workers, they are street cleaners, they were construction workers. They basically fled from China to Hong Kong in the pursuit of better economic opportunity and also political stability. For me, I have not been taught about democracy and human rights at all at home or even at school

because I was studying at some pro-Beijing school when I was in my childhood. But one thing really caught my curiosity was about Liu Xiaobo. I remember that when I was in high school, he received the Nobel Peace Prize. Liu Xiaobo, author, literary critic, human rights activist and Nobel Peace Prize winner. It has not been possible, as you know, for Liu Xiaobo or any of his close relatives to come to Oslo to receive the Nobel medal and diploma. And the school principal publicly denounced him. So it really triggered my curiosity because I thought that people getting a Nobel Prize should be excellent people. So why did the school criticize him? So it really triggered my curiosity and I looked into the works that he had been doing, the 440 massacre and the FSCC work. And it's kind of like an enlightenment moment for me.

I have to say, I mean, the photographs and the videos from the umbrella movement that were broadcast around the world and we were watching here are stunning. I mean, just seeing the millions of people taking to the streets, seeing this sea of colorful umbrellas. In the streets, a sea of umbrellas, the symbol of a mass demonstration underway in Hong Kong. Now they've got a whole bunch of umbrellas to come over here because the police are kind of hovering their red sign as if to suggest that they might be about to spray some tear gas. I can hear them beating the umbrellas. They pull them away. Tell me about, for you, what was it like to be on the front lines of those protests?

And is there a particular memory you have from that time that really captured the spirit of that moment well it was actually really overwhelming because you knew that you are fighting against a giant that seemed like unbeatable but you're carrying the expectation of people so that was um actually made me more humble to myself and feel like I am just another person. Like I didn't really have the power to change anything. And for the memorable moment, I think it's always good to see the occupation zone turns to be a utopia. People help each other unconditionally, people share their stuff, people care for each other.

And I think that was the beauty of humanity that I enjoyed very much during the occupation. The so-called creative protest that we're doing, we are trying to make some new ways of fighting for freedom. There are lots of things impossible, but it happened. So if we have hope, I believe, I believe. We always have to carry hope because as an activist, there is no room for you to feel

hopeless. You always need to have that spark so that you can ignite the people. This is not a short-term fight, it's a long-term battle. So we may encounter a lot of difficulties during movement, but if we could step by step moving Hong Kong forward, spreading the idea of democratization and liberalism, then I think that would be considered as a step forward. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cups. And yet, you know, I heard some of the chants of the movement were things like the people united will never be defeated, which of course is a chant that has echoed on the streets, you know, throughout the world. How aware were you and the fellow activists of similar kinds of protests that have happened around the world and throughout history?

Yes, of course, we learn about the history of democratization in Taiwan, Korea. We learn about the Black Lives Movement in the US. These are all great examples that we could look into, possibly about what fates that we will face. Every single country, the democratization had always been very bloody and cruel. And that may signify the future of Hong Kong. So in 2016, you're 23 years old, and you co-found this pro-democracy organization and political party, Democisto, with Joshua Wong. And then you're elected as Hong Kong's youngest ever legislator. ... student leader and also newly elected Hong Kong legislator. It's been a swift rise for the cultural studies undergraduate.

But pretty soon after that, you are disqualified and then arrested and sent to jail for what is called an illegal protest at Hong Kong government headquarters. They were charged in connection with the 2014 Umbrella protest. The decision to put the trio behind bars is a major blow to Hong Kong's youth-led push for universal suffrage. And I'm wondering how you cope with that emotionally, to go from this incredible wave of success with the umbrella movement, with your political party, and then have the whole thing end in such turmoil? Yeah, I basically degraded from a legislator to a person in just one month.

And it was definitely hard, hard to accept and hard to digest. But for me, like reading about all the journey of the great men in history like Martin Luther King, Mandela, they've all been through difficulties far harsher than what I was experiencing. And it gives me courage. The others, when they have to achieve something big, they have the mentality to bear that kind of pain journey. So I think, yes, indeed, these stories gives me a lot of power. In 2019, you took to the streets again. This time you were protesting a controversial extradition bill. But the police response to those protests seemed to be very different this time than the Umbrella Movement.

Hundreds of thousands are demonstrating against a deeply unpopular bill. Allow mainland China to extradite people from Hong Kong and put them on trial. Many of the people in the city do not trust Beijing's justice system. They were responding with tear gas and rubber bullets and water cannons. Tell me about your experience of those protests. How different did it feel to you? Well, it feels like the authority has granted unlimited power to the police and they could basically do whatever they want. police and they could basically do whatever they want. For the past year we have not been seeing any of the police officers under any forms of investigation even though they have been committed into so many misbehaviors for example shooting a bare-handed protester in their chest.

And we witnessed the difference is that the violent element of the government has taken control and has become like a military state. To what extent did that set the stage for this national security law? Well, it means that they do not treasure your human rights and freedom anymore. These are all tossed into the rubbish bin. And what they care is the stability of their government and how they could quash the protest. There is no rule of law, there is no one country, two system, and there is no Hong Kong that we used to know. We used to recognize Hong Kong as a vibrant city that has rule of law or even become freedom in Asia. But for now, we can never see it.

You talked about your parents having fled mainland China, that they're blue collar workers, and I'm wondering how they view your activism. Were they supportive of the work that you were doing? And did they agree with the ideas that you were fighting for? Of course, they are very worried. They understand how brutal, how draconian the Communist Party could be. But they are also supportive in this stage because they understand that we need to fight back.

But for now, I'm unable to keep close contact to them because it would possibly endanger them if I'm targeted by the authority. Judging from the implementation of national security law in mainland China, people could be incarcerated not because of what you've done, but because of what your family had done. Despite the national security law, we are seeing protesters take to the streets, although they're now carrying blank sheets of paper. What have you been hearing from protesters that are out there right now? Yes, they're changing their strategy to become more creative and subtle in order to circumvent the punishment or the restriction. But if you have been following how the police officers deal with these protests, these police officers will still warn them, saying that even though you're holding a black paper, you are possibly breaching the national security law. So that is really absurd.

You never know that when you will break the law, you never know that where is the red line, how broad and how thick it will draw. And that is the power of politics of fear. It will lead you to self-censorship to a degree that you can never express what you genuinely mean. I imagine adding to that fear is the fact that on Wednesday, a new national security office officially opened in Hong Kong, and you have mainland Chinese agents working in

the territory for the first time. What is that signal to you? Well, secret police has always been a faraway idea for Hong Kong people. It was like something in the old days in Germany, in East Germany, but not in Hong Kong. But for now, we indeed feel like it's the reality. The secret police, they have unsweeping power, unlimited power to target people in Hong Kong, tapping their phone or freezing their assets, confiscating their passport. They are all entitled to do so without the court's permission.

So this is something really frightening for a lot of Hong Kong people. And ostensibly, under the national security law, it doesn't just govern the behavior of people living in Hong Kong, but activists abroad as well. Now that you're doing activism from abroad, you're still not necessarily safe, right? Oh, yes, definitely. I could be, well, what I've been doing overseas would definitely become part of the so-called evidence that they collect. If Beijing considers your past behaviors as the breach of the law, The law actually applies to you when you enter Hong Kong.

So, for example, if you had done coverage of the Xinjiang concentration camp. But now there's real proof, secret blueprints of mass incarceration and indoctrination of Muslims. And accuse China something that they would never admit. That could be considered as, well, reviewing the state secrets or even like colluding with foreign forces. They could cook up cases on you. I mean, the language is vague and maybe intentionally so. Yes, of course.

That is politics of fear. They need you to guess. It is so different from the common law system or the legal system in the advanced world that we have to be precise so that people would understand that what constitutes a breach or a violation of the law that kind of writing style of the national security law is in the complete opposite it is intentionally written in fake and broad terms so you you have to guess. And by guessing, you're possibly conducting self-censorship. So that is how the politics of fear worked in Hong Kong.

And we already saw the linen walls coming down and a lot of the posters coming down even before the office was opened. Yes, indeed. And they don't even know what kind of slogan constitutes the violation of the law. You say, Hong Kong, cheer up, things like that. That could possibly be one of them.

And no one knows. And that is the problem. What are you missing most right now? Well, of course, families, the connections, friends, and the two cats that I rescued from the street. So these are, well, really precious connections of mine. By fleeing, you are basically leaving those behind. How hopeful are you that you'll be able to return one day? Well, that will possibly take a very long while to achieve.

But for me, I'm quite determined that I, even though I'm overseas, but I will continue the international advocacy work and hope that I could fight for the democracy and freedom for Hong Kong. I wish you the best of luck in your work and thank you for speaking with me today. Thank you so much. All right, before we go today, some news about Canada's economy. On Wednesday, Finance Minister Bill Morneau announced that the federal government's deficit is expected to hit $343 billion this year. The unprecedented number is largely due to the cost of COVID-19 programs. This kind of federal spending hasn't been seen since the Second World War.

Morneau says he hopes for a, quote, successful relaunch of the economy, but that he couldn't predict when the government might return to a balanced budget. That's it for today. I'm Josh Bloch. Thanks for listening to FrontBur.