Front Burner - Pro-Trump extremists storm Capitol Hill

Episode Date: January 7, 2021

Supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump sowed chaos in and around the U.S. Capitol, forcing lawmakers to flee as they’d gathered to certify president-elect Joe Biden’s victory, after Trump himself encouraged them. CBC Washington correspondents Katie Simpson and Paul Hunter explain how pro-Trump extremists managed to breach Capitol security and storm the complex.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. But I said something's wrong here, something's really wrong, can't have happened, and we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. Early on Wednesday afternoon, Donald Trump spoke to thousands of his supporters at a rally in Washington, D.C. Walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we're going to the Capitol and we're going to try and give our Republicans,

the weak ones because the strong ones don't need any of our help. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. Within the hour, this happened. Angry supporters of the president advancing on the Capitol. Take that house! Take it now! What's the purpose of storming Congress itself? Because they work for us! They don't get to steal it from us.

They don't get to tell us we didn't see what we saw. CBC Washington correspondents Katie Simpson and Paul Hunter join me to explain how pro-Trump rioters managed to breach the Capitol security and storm the Senate and Congress, an insurrection goaded on by Trump who refuses to concede to reality. I'm Jamie Poisson and this is FrontBurner. Hi, Katie and Paul. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us on this extraordinary day and so late in the evening. Hi. Hey, Jamie. just a few days since you and I last spoke. And we left off talking about this specter of violence with these protests planned for today, the day that Congress met to certify the 2020 election results. And suddenly, I know you're racing through Washington to cover absolute chaos on

the steps of the US Capitol. And I know that we're talking right now, you're standing outside the Capitol. And what was it like for you being there today? It was a remarkable scene and it was certainly it seemed unbelievable in the moment and and the situation moved so quickly that you just really had to be one step ahead of what was happening to make sure that we're not going to get caught in the middle of anything and that's sort of how you have to think about these security situations. We have security with us. And so we're just trying to make sure that we can document what's happening and sort of get out of the way. Paul, I want to talk about how the day unfolded. This is a usually routine event. But this year, there was a protest from several Republicans. Who were they? And what were they saying on

Wednesday? It is absolutely a routine event. I mean, this happens early in every January in which a president will be inaugurated. It is utterly a pro forma ceremony. It changes nothing. It simply announces out loud in the U.S. Senate what the state legislatures have already concluded and made official based on votes in the individual states. The certificate of the electoral vote of the state of Arizona seems to be regular, informed, and authentic. It is so routine, effectively, no one cares. I mean, I can't even remember ever covering one of these days in my time in D.C. except for this year. You know, Donald Trump, with all his pushback, combined with an unwillingness among many Republicans to call him out on his unfounded claims of a rigged election, led to this day

today in which Republican senators, or at least some of them, you know, stood up to argue on Trump's behalf. To object to the counting of the electoral ballots from Arizona. That they were not, under all of the known circumstances, regularly given. Everybody knew that it would change nothing, that Biden would still be in the White House come January 20th. But they did it anyway. It goes to thinking, to curry favor with Trump and all of his sort of devout voters in Trump nation. This is especially important for senators such as Ted Cruz of Texas, who are likely eyeing a run at the presidency in

2024. So Cruz was among those who stood up knowing nothing would change, but compounding Trump's claims of electoral fraud. His argument, Cruz's, by the way, was one of those circular arguments we've been hearing that there must be fraud worthy of investigation because so many people believe there's fraud, even though the only reason so many people believe there's fraud is because Trump has been saying so. It makes no actual sense. Even if you do not share that conviction, it is the responsibility, I believe, of this office to acknowledge that is a profound threat to this country and to the legitimacy of any administrations that will come in the future. Right, right. And let's talk about

Vice President Mike Pence as well. I know that he plays a large yet ceremonial role during the result certification, but he's been under this very intense pressure from Trump to somehow overturn the election results in several key states. And when it came to it, Paul, what did Pence do on Wednesday? He did his job. Madam Speaker, members of Congress, pursuant to the Constitution and the laws of the United States. Indeed, Pence is the announcer in this event. Indeed, Pence is the announcer in this event. As vice president, he's effectively the top ranking person in the Senate. His job on this day is simply to open the envelopes from the states and read them out loud. those findings, reject the will of American voters, disenfranchise them basically, and somehow hand the election over to Trump. Again, it makes no sense. Pence told that to Trump,

that he doesn't have the power to change anything. And Trump took him to task on it, in a sense, refusing to accept reality and intensifying the pressure on Pence to somehow do something, right? And Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. And if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country. And all of that fed Trump's narrative that something's wrong here, even though nothing's wrong. It is a continuation of this circular conspiracy theory that's been spinning since election week.

And, you know, what can go wrong? Well, we saw. So we know inside the Capitol, Pence is saying that he can't unilaterally essentially overturn the election. And then, Katie, nearby the Capitol building, a little earlier in the day, Trump gets on stage at this rally organized to coincide with the certification. And, you know, he reportedly at this point knew what Pence was going to do. And like Paul mentioned, he was livid. We will never give up. We will never give up. We will never concede.

It doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. And what was the message from the stage that Trump gave to his diehard followers? Well, he really stoked that anger that exists in that crowd. These people really, truly believe the election is stolen. They believe the president when he says that. And so when he stands on this stage and he says things like, you're going to go to the Capitol, you're going to protest, and I don't think we're going to celebrate. There's this quote he gave that where he, you know, he urged his

supporters to go to the Capitol and protest. To peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard, today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections, but whether or not they stand strong for our country. And he's repeating these conspiracy theories, these false claims that really agitate his base because, again, these people believe their democracy is broken. They believe something is wrong here and they're very alarmed and they're very distressed. And so when that tension already exists

and they see their leader that they have such faith in continue to push this narrative and stoke this anger, it really makes for a volatile situation. And we saw that as the speech started to wind down, when the protesters started heading to the Capitol, listening to Trump, listening to their leader, there was already quite a bit of tension. I believe Donald Trump, I believe this election was stolen. I do not want this at all to be taken from him. He won legitimately. And if you have to win by losing, you're still a loser. One thing we saw as we walked alongside them, sort of documenting along the way,

is there was a young black man, a counter protester, who stood sort of along the route, and he gave the middle finger to some of the Trump protesters. And these older white gentlemen saw it, noticed it, and said, I dare you to do that after night. You're doing that right now. I dare you to do that after dark. And it was it was clearly a threat of violence. Now, it didn't turn physical and the young man left. But it was very clear that these people were angry and they were fixing for a fight. It's America, baby. Yeah, Trump 2020, baby.

Woo! Yeah! Trump 2020, baby! And then, of course, after that, there is this unprecedented scene of violence in the Capitol building. Pro-Trump supporters stormed the building in droves. And Katie, describe the scene to me. What was happening? What was it like? The first thing we noticed as we sort of walked toward the Capitol is that there had been some barricades set up outside the perimeter of the building. And there were these metal barricades. And so the protesters had stopped and they were standing with their flags and they were shouting. But they very quickly decided they could dismantle these barricades. They could easily pull them apart.

They were not really put well together. And that's when we saw sort of a stampede up to the steps. There was a lack of visible security here. It's not like Capitol Hill police. It's not like the National Guard. It's not like local police. Didn't know this was happening. And so it was quite surprising to see the lack of security, the lack of police presence as these people stormed up the steps of the Capitol. They even climbed up the bleachers

that have been set up for Joe Biden's inauguration in a couple of days, standing up there shouting and chanting. And that's when the situation really, it escalated quickly. And talk to me what happened then and what happened to the lawmakers who were in the building at the time. So there's a moment when you can see it, it happens. There are people in the crowd egging people on to say, come on, come on, come on. And they're waving their arms, trying to get people to really storm the building. And eventually the crowd pushes back. And, you know, there are some police there.

They fired some pepper balls into the crowd and they had some flashbangs. But it didn't really do anything to stop them. And so as they started running up the stairs, you see these police officers backing up, backing up. And then they actually have to turn around and run for it. The protesters were able to sort of break through the windows, get into the building. Get out of here! Let them in! Let them in! Let them in! And there are these scenes. This is supposed to be, you know, the place where American democracy is celebrated.

This is sacred territory. And these protesters broke in and the scenes are unbelievable. You want to fight? You better believe you've got to run! And the scenes are unbelievable. Treason! Treason! You want to fight? You better believe you've got to run! And as this happened, the lawmakers, of course, they're inside having these debates. Many had to go, the building went into lockdown, people had to be in secure locations. I and about 15 or 20 other members were among the last. And then all of a sudden they wouldn't let us evacuate anymore.

They barricaded the doors and said there were intruders again in the hallway. And the next thing I knew, there was glass breaking and shots being fired. You could hear the protesters banging on all the doors, on all the chambers. And we thought for sure that any moment they were going to break through. And some of us began to calculate, okay, you've got that door, you've got three guards, probably 15 bullets per gun. Okay, what happens after that? I look back over my shoulder and a half a dozen of the congressmen were holding the door. They were holding the doorkeeper from getting in. And, you know, my first reaction was to go help him. And I started that way. And all of a sudden his hand grabs me and all I hear is, Jerry, I'm

going to make sure you make it to the second week. Mike Pence, at first it was reported he had to be forced, he had to flee the building to go to a safe location. He now says that they stayed in the building the entire time, but they did have to secure the area. But just think, on a day, in a place that is supposed to be, you know, the bed of democracy, a celebration of what is good in America, democracy in action, and this on a big day unfolds. It was unbelievable. We respect the law. We were good people. The government did this to us. We were normal, good, law-abiding citizens. And you guys did this

to us. We want our country back. We are protesting for our freedom right now. That's the difference. And why did you want to go in? We're storming the Capitol. It's a revolution. It is incredible to listen to you talk about these events as they unfolded today. It's surreal. It's surreal. Paul, the imagery from Wednesday, these rioters in the Capitol building, they were in there for a while, for several hours. And some of the images from today will just become iconic. And talk to me about what we saw. You know, surreal is one word for it.

Insane is another. Straight out of a bad movie. You know, I mean, it would all be farcical if it wasn't the United States Capitol building and if the most powerful position on the planet wasn't hanging in the balance. You know, when I saw the pics of those bleachers near where the inauguration is going to happen, I mean, I was thinking, I stood there watching Trump get inaugurated four years ago, like I had to pass

all kinds of security to get so close to where the president is. Like it's right on the steps of the Capitol. I'm thinking, what is going on here? Right?

I mean, then I saw the photo of the plainclothes security officers with their handguns drawn and aimed inside the chamber. Come on, just sit down! Sit down! They want us down. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking nothing's handguns drawn and aimed inside the chamber. I'm thinking, nothing's going to top that. And then came that shot of the demonstrator in Nancy Pelosi's office. She is third in line to the presidency, and there's that man sitting in her chair, feet up on the desk, smiling in her office.

And he leaves this note that says, we will not back down. And there was also this very well-known QAnon supporter from Arizona, I believe. He was wearing this really outlandish outfit with like horns on his head. And there was this picture of him sitting in the chair that Mike Pence had been sitting in, in the Senate. This whole thing, it was just bizarre. And the freakishness of it all was, I don't know. How do you talk about it? It came so out of the blue? I mean, I've been to many Trump rallies and I've seen I've talked to QAnon followers. I mean, this is part of the Trump crowd. But now they're inside the Capitol and they're taking selfies. Right. It's crazy.

All those Trump 2020 flags that we see at all the rallies and the MAGA hats and everything. They're inside that place. And like no one cared they were being photographed. Literally, it was like a party, right? Which just added to the bizarreness and the freakishness of all of it. We've been in there. There ain't nothing going on in here. Let's go get a beer. Let's go get a beer. And then come back.

And then come back. Right, there were all these chants like, this is our house, this is our house. Stop the steal! Stop the steal! And I mean, you make a good point. All the flags, I suppose maybe this could be expected, but it's not like they were all holding American flags. These were Trump flags. Exactly. And chanting, this is our house,

I mean, that's a common view of that place. It is the people's house. They elected people to go there. There is a feeling of righteousness about that aspect of it. I mean, I'm sure if you sat down and chatted with any of the people that were there, at some point they'd get around to saying, no, this is our house and we're just trying to make a point in fairness, right? They don't get to steal it from us. That's it. This is our house. This is our country. But it's the way they did it and the ferocity of it and the insanity of it and the unexpectedness of it. It's hard to absorb. It's hard to fathom that it actually went down that way.

But do you really think that it was unexpected? went down that way. But do you really think that it was unexpected? Well, that's a good question. I think the degree to which it played out that way would not have been predicted. You know, the Trump demonstration was a known thing. We've seen how people have demonstrated in Washington over time, certainly since the election. There is a lot of anger out there. There is a lot of anger amid Trump nation. The degree that this exploded into that, I think, in fairness, was unexpected. You know, 48 hours ago, would you ever think that they would actually do that? And yet they did.

It's a strange, it's an awful situation they're having a good time this deranged attempt at a bloodless coup well now it's not bloodless anymore a lot of people have used a lot of different words to describe these scenes sedition a coup an assault on something sacred and all of that is being jeopardized here and now, on this day, by people who wear hats that say, make America great again. I ask them to answer the question, is this American greatness? In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about

money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Just search for Money for Cops.

Katie, let's talk about the way that Trump continued to stoke the flames of this riot today. And what kind of things did he tweet and did he say while this was all happening? Well, as this is all unfolding, and one thing I should mention, it actually took some time for the images and video from the Capitol to actually make it to people's phones and for people to actually know how serious the situation was, because there were so many people here, the cell phone reception was really bad. So I was trying to get video out and photos out. And I know other people were trying to do the same, too. There was a bit of a delay, the real time delay as to the chaos that was unfolding and the world understanding we're so used to, you know to instant images on Twitter and Instagram,

but it was unfolding very quickly in front of us, but getting the word out to the world was not moving as quickly. And so two hours passed before President Trump put out his first tweet about what was going on, and he urged people to respect the law enforcement. The language wasn't strong. It was nothing that was condemning what was going on. It was just asking people to respect law enforcement here on Capitol Hill. I'm asking everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful, period. No violence, exclamation point.

And it was seen as the reaction to it was very soft. There were so many people calling on Donald Trump to condemn this, tell the people to go home, step in and really step up in this situation because these are the people that listen to him and Donald Trump's words really matter here. It would be another couple of hours before Donald Trump put out a video. There's never been a time like this where such a thing happened where they could take it away from all of us, from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election. But we can't play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You're very special.

JUDY WOODRUFF Some of his other tweets describe these people in glowing terms. Twitter became very frustrated and then deleted some of his tweets and slapped a 12-hour ban on his account, which is something that we haven't seen, despite a number of tweets that have caused a lot of division and harm in America from that account. Right, right. And I know that Facebook also banned him for 24 hours, though. I know lots of people believe that that doesn't go far enough. I just want to read that tweet that you were referencing, where he speaks about some of the rioters. Quote, these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously and viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly and unfairly

treated for so long. Katie, another thing I wanted to talk to you about, it's astounding that extremists could take the Capitol building like this. You know, you mentioned before how easy it was for the rioters to get into the Capitol. There's been a lot of criticism of the lack of police intervention, and many people have pointed out the vast disparity between what we saw today and the way largely peaceful Black Lives Matter protesters were treated. And how would you characterize the police response? It was noticeable, the lack of police response here.

People were going over barricades. They were stampeding up the steps. And there were some riot police, but they weren't really doing anything. They weren't really doing anything. They weren't pushing back. It was a very different scene compared to what we saw with the Black Lives Matter protesters. I remember the first protest that happened in Washington. It was the Friday after George Floyd was killed by police.

And there had been peaceful protests in Washington, but on the Friday night after that had happened, that's when tensions, there was some clashing between Secret Service guards and protesters. And after that moment, the police presence in Washington, D.C., it was noticeably more significant, particularly in around the White House. And when those protests continue, and yes, there was some violence in those protests, but as the protests continue, you saw such a severe police response. such a severe police response. Today, it's not like, again, it's not like this protest was a secret. And the mayor had even issued this bizarre warning, urging people not to bring their weapons because there was some sort of intelligence telling them that there was going to be people bringing their weapons. There was the fear of violence. They activated the National Guard. But when you arrived at the protest today, you didn't see any of that. You didn't see a heavy

police presence around this. Right. I imagine there will be so many questions about this in the days to come. You know, I should note that President-elect Joe Biden, he also made a mid-riot statement. He talked about how this was an unprecedented assault, unlike anything that the United States has seen in modern times. An assault on the citadel of liberty, the Capitol itself. And he called on the mob to pull back and to allow the work of democracy to go forward. Let me be very clear. The scenes of chaos at the Capitol do not reflect a true America. Scenes of chaos at the Capitol do not reflect a true America. And, you know, I know it took many hours to get this under control, but eventually reinforcements were called in. The army was brought in. The D.C. National Guard, the mayor of Washington imposed a curfew beginning at six.

And, Katie, you know, as night has fallen on Washington, what happened? you know as night has fallen on washington uh what happened uh it took a while for the protesters to actually leave the area around the capital uh they you did see the police move in they moved in formation and and pushed people out but they didn't do it with the same force they did with the lives matters protests over the summer um as the evening went on it's actually uh quite cold in dc tonight as the evening went on a lot's actually quite cold in D.C. tonight. As the evening went on, a lot of people went home. Right now, as we're speaking, there's a handful of National Guard officers that I can see. There's a couple of news crews here, but it's pretty empty. I don't see any protesters left just yet. Okay. And, you know, I also want to mention,

very tragically, a woman was shot earlier in the day at the Capitol and she died at a local hospital. The details surrounding her death have not yet been confirmed and we also know that police officers have sustained injuries as well. You know in addition to this such a chaotic day a pipe bomb was found at the headquarters of the Republican National Committee and destroyed and a suspicious package was found nearby at the Democratic National Committee headquarters. That had to be evacuated. Paul, before we go today, today was the violent culmination of the president's campaign to stay in power. Can he be held accountable for what happened today?

Could he be impeached again, I guess, removed from office, even though he only has two weeks left? Although I imagine you could do a lot in two weeks. You can do a lot in two weeks. And that's the thing. Right. And look, impeachment, as we all learned, is a complicated process. But when you consider there are still just under two full weeks until Trump loses the power of the presidency, and that's a lot of time for him to potentially oversee a lot of havoc. potentially oversee a lot of havoc, well, there's the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. And that amendment is in place in part, it has other aspects, but in part, it is to allow for the president to be temporarily replaced if he or she is incapable of carrying out their duties. An example in other circumstances would be if he or she has to go under general anesthetic for surgery. So it could be invoked. The vice president would take command during that time under the 25th Amendment. And then after the surgery, all would revert back

to the president. Or it could be used to remove someone deemed unfit for office, like, say, Donald Trump. The requirement, though, is complicated. For example, you need sign-off from a majority of the presidential cabinet, all of whom are Trump appointees. And it's never been invoked, like not once. That said, there is evidently, reportedly, some talk of trying to invoke the 25th Amendment regarding Donald Trump. This is that serious. And if that gets traction, we're in a whole new ballgame. I mean, imagine how Trump, you know, we saw after what played out on Capitol Hill, right? Imagine how so-called making air quotes here.

Trump nation would react to that. I mean, Trump would become an instant martyr and then all bets are off. Right. Right. And and just going back to Biden's remarks. Final final question I have for you tonight. Final question I have for you tonight. Biden pleaded to return to this pre-Trump era of America, of American politics. Notwithstanding what I saw today and we're seeing today, I remain optimistic about the incredible opportunities. There has never been anything we can't do when we do it together. You know, does that world even exist anymore?

Who knows, right? It is the truth. You know, Joe Biden's brand is all about building bridges. You know, Trump calls it the swamp that Biden has lived and worked in for decades. Well, Biden's view is that if you spend that much time in the Senate, you know how to make friends and you know how to make compromise and create a sense of normalcy and a path forward that appeals to all sides. But those days, they just feel like they're gone. I mean, it's been building to this. It has gone on steroids lately.

It has been stoked by Trump throughout his time in office. You know, we talk about a gap. It's really a chasm. It is a deep, deep, you know, valley. Pick your metaphor for it. And it is ferocious. And the evidence of the ferocity of this divide in America that is now, you know, of this divide in America that is now, you know, left to Biden come January 20th to repair. It's, I don't know, how do you, how do you get back to normal, right? On top of everything else that Biden's going to be facing, on top of COVID, on top of the economy, he's got this problem. And there are no, there are, I was going say, there's no easy answers. I don't know if there is an answer. All right, Paul, Katie, thank you so much for being with us tonight. Be safe out there go tonight, U.S. lawmakers returned to the chambers Wednesday night to consider the certification of Joe Biden as president.

They were escorted there by dozens of law enforcement officers. Here's a bit of Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer. Today's events did not happen spontaneously. The president who promoted conspiracy theories that motivated these thugs, the president who exhorted them to come to our nation's capital, egged them on. He hardly ever discourages violence and more often encourages it. This president

bears a great deal of the blame. This violence in good part, his responsibility, his everlasting shame. It's worth noting that several lawmakers who said they would originally object changed their minds after the violence. After a few hours, Congress certified the 2020 election results. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.