Front Burner - Proud Boys and the thorny definition of terrorism

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

The Canadian government recently listed the Proud Boys and three other far-right organizations as terrorist entities. They also moved to list nine other militant Islamist groups. For some people, this is a huge win. But others worry it's a sign that the war on terror is continuing to expand, and they're concerned about who might get caught up in its dragnet. Today, Ben Makuch a national security reporter for Vice, and Michelle Shephard, author of Decade of Fear: Reporting from Terrorism's Grey Zone, wade through the complex ramifications.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. You can't call for violence on a specific person, but can you say they're throwing bricks? We should throw bricks. Can you call for violence generally?

Because I am. So five years ago, Canadian far-right media personality Gavin McInnes started an all-male group in New York, which he referred to as a Western chauvinist drinking club. You've heard of them. We've covered them on the show. They've been shouted out by Donald Trump. They are the Proud Boys. Anyway, fast forward to this week and Canada has just designated them as a terrorist entity. We have been monitoring the activities of that particular group for some period of time. Over the past several months, basically since 2018, we have seen an escalation towards violence for this group.

This comes after a number of their high-ranking members were arrested in connection with the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol. They're rushing to the Capitol, brother! The Proud Boys are rushing to Capitol! The Proud Boys aren't alone here. Three other far-right organizations were just added to Canada's terror list. The base, Adam Woffin division, and the Russian imperial movement, along with nine militant Islamist groups. For some people, this is a huge win. But for others, it's a worrying sign that the war on terror is continuing to expand. And they're concerned about who might get caught up in its dragnet.

Today, I'm speaking to two people who've been reporting on these issues for a long time. They're also good friends of the show. Ben McCoo is a national security reporter for Vice. Michelle Shepard reported on the post-9-11 war on terror for the Toronto Star for many years, and she wrote a book about it, Decade of Fear, Reporting from Terrorism's Grey Zone. Hello to you both. Hi, Jamie. Hi, thanks for having me back.

Thanks so much for being here. So Ben, let's talk briefly about who these groups are and what may have led to the Canadian government's decision to designate them as terrorist organizations. And let's start with the base. Some of our listeners might be familiar with them. You've been on the show talking about them before. And can you tell us a little bit about who they are and their connection to Canada, if any? So the base is a neo-Nazi accelerationist organization that basically believes in terrorist acts to hasten the collapse of the U.S. government. They want to kick off the race war, or so-called race war. And basically that means, you know, small assassination plots or bombings. They've talked about poisoning water facilities, bombing power stations, stuff that would promote general chaos in a society. And many of their members, I think nine of them, have been arrested

by the FBI alone. And one of them is a Canadian guy that we've talked about before, right? Patrick Matthews? Yes, and Patrick Matthews was a former Canadian reservist who actually illegally left and entered the United States and was harbored by the base for close to six months. And he was picked up for some charges relating to a plot to shoot up a gun rally in Virginia. During a search of their apartment,

law enforcement found videos Matthews made in one wearing a gas mask and speaking with a distorted voice where he calls for violent revolution, derailing trains and poisoning water supplies. So there's a strong connection between the base and Canada. All right, what about Adam Woffin Division? Adam Woffin Division is kind of a sister organization. It's very similar. They actually are connected to five murders in the U.S.

They're the ones that really spread the ideology of neo-Nazi white nationalist terrorism that really is proliferating today online. Adam Waffen means atomic weapons in German. The group embraces Nazi ideology and preaches a hatred of minorities, gays, and Jews. It calls for lone wolf acts of violence, much like the massacre in Pittsburgh. And, you know, there's been multiple other groups that have sprouted out from them,

including the base, the base being probably the most prolific. There have been members in Canada. We identified one in the summer of 2018, who was a former Canadian reservist that was in Nova Scotia. And there's suspicions of others. But Atomwaffen Division is, you know, it is also a group that's under, you know, immense FBI scrutiny. And many of its members have also been picked up in raids. Okay. And what about the Russian imperial movement? I have to confess, I hadn't actually heard of this group before this designation on Wednesday. I mean, are they even active in Canada?

So that's the real question of Russian imperial movement or whether or not they have Canadian operatives per se. But the thing about the Russian imperial movement is that it has tried to promote Westerners and people from abroad going to St. Petersburg, where they have a training facility nearby, to get paramilitary training and then go back to their home countries to perform terrorist attacks. These men are preparing for urban warfare. This is a promotional video for a training camp in St. Petersburg run by a group called the Russian Imperial Movement.

The RIM is linked to Russia-backed separatists in Ukraine, bomb attacks in Sweden, and far-right groups across Europe and the United States. It's almost very similar to like how ISIS had Western recruits. And then when it was, the caliphate was starting to fall, some of them went back and were instructed to carry out attacks. This is something that you and I have talked about on this podcast before, that these groups take a lot of cues or lessons, I guess, from ISIS or al-Qaeda. Yes, they absolutely do. All right.

So we've got these three groups and then the Proud Boys, who I mentioned in the intro. We've covered the history of this group recently on this show. So for our listeners, you can find that episode in our feed. They were sort of like a far-right street fighting gang active in the U.S. and to a lesser extent in Canada. And Ben, I want to come back to them in a second with you. But first, Michelle, what does it mean to actually be designated a terrorist group in Canada? Like, what happens to you? Probably the biggest impact is financial. So what it means is that security agencies can now freeze financial assets. It becomes a crime to provide material support to these groups. And that can be something as simple as, say, buying a cap that says Proud Boys. I mean, if they wanted to prosecute that. So that's probably the largest investigative tool that they can have.

And then it simply also just makes it a crime not to be a member of these groups, but to support them in any way. So that would definitely cut down on any fundraising that they're trying to do or just, I mean, these groups have been very out there in the open. So it'll definitely push them more underground. Can you tell me a little bit more about that idea

that it's illegal to support these groups, but I guess not necessarily to be a member of them? Yeah, it is a bit confusing. But merely being a member of a group is not a criminal offence. So to prosecute members of terrorist entities, you have to show that they provided material support. They provided some sort of support to further the goals of the group, not simply just having a membership card. Not that these groups have those, but that was one of the issues that came up quite a bit when you had these Western recruits for ISIS, that to criminally prosecute them, you had to show more than just that they said they belong to the group.

Now, how that gets applied is there's a wide range. And it could be, you know, something as simple as, you know, as I said in the example with the Proud Boys, you know, buying a baseball cap. It doesn't have to necessarily be much, but there has to be some proof that they are supporting the group financially. Now I want to talk to you guys a bit about how these decisions get made. And Ben, you know, speaking of the Proud Boys, tell me why you think the Proud Boys don't fit so clearly into the definition of a terrorist group. Well, see, here's the thing. And I think Michelle would agree with me. When you look at something like the Proud Boys, they really are this sort of street fighting organization. You know, they have been rung up on charges already for stuff like fighting and, you know, destruction

of property, things like that. But they don't so neatly fit into the classic form of a terrorist organization that has a cell network that plans acts of political assassination or bombings or things that you typically associate with something like ISIS or Al Qaeda, the types of groups that we've undertaken a multi-year, multi-billion dollar military conquest against that, whether we'd like to admit it or not, probably didn't actually work. And when you look at those groups vis-a-vis something like the base or Adam Woffin division, those two groups do have cell networks, do plan attacks so covertly, and kind of fit more cleanly into that idea of what a terrorist organization is. Whereas

Proud Boys, I mean, these are possibly thousands of members in Canada. Some of them, you know, their crimes could be as small as, you know, screaming things at a protest, which is not a crime, or actually attacking someone and assaulting someone. Things, again, that aren't something that you'd, you know, say is terrorism, because I think if it were, a lot of people would be subject to terror laws. Right. Yeah, and I think the fear there is that does this open the door for other groups to be listed,

such as Indigenous groups or Black Lives Matter movement? No justice! No peace! No racism! No peace! No justice! No peace!

No racism! And I think what Ben's raising is kind of the inherent problems with this, you know, the general so-called war on terror, but these terrorist lists per se. They, even though they say they're not politically decided upon, politics absolutely does play a role here. episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and

podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. Michelle, it seems like there have been a lot of questions about how exactly the Canadian government came to the decision that the Proud Boys meet the bar of being a terrorist group. Public Safety Minister Bill Blair said it like this. There has been a growing body of evidence collected here in Canada and among our international partners, particularly in the United States, of the escalation of violence that this group has been involved in. It is deeply concerning. And, you know, although we've been monitoring the activities of this group with considerable concern since 2018, we've seen most recently, and there is a great deal of evidence to support, that there has been a serious and concerning escalation of violent, not just rhetoric, but activity and planning. And that's why we have responded as we have today. But he wouldn't go further than that.

Right. One of the problems with that process is also the secrecy of it. None of that is open to scrutiny. And that's an issue for many groups and has been over the years. And the only time we get a sort of a little glimpse of what's happening in terms of the assessment is if the group decides to legally challenge its listing. Right. I want to keep talking to you guys about some of the concerns here. But first, Michelle, there were a lot of people that were happy about these designations, right? NDP leader Jagmeet Singh introduced the motion to Parliament. He is celebrating. That the House call upon the government to use all available tools to address the proliferation of white supremacist and hate groups, starting with the immediate designating Proud Boys as a terrorist entity.

The Canadian Anti-Hate Network has been calling for Adam Woffin Division and the base to be added to this list for a long time. And I know that this may seem like a bit of an obvious question, but can you talk to me a little bit about why these designations have been welcomed? why these designations have been welcomed? Sure. I mean, it makes sense. They're hateful and they have had this platform to spread these terrible views. And so anything that's going to harm them and silence them is going to be welcome. But I think moreover, it's the fact that for nearly 20 years now, we've had this so-called war on terror. But the only groups really that have been targeted have been Muslim groups or Muslim individuals.

So I think even though the threat statistically over the years has been much greater from these type of white white supremacist groups, the terrible so-called lone wolf attacks we've had, all the resources have gone to investigating Muslim groups. So I think certainly there is a sense of like, okay, finally, you're looking at the risk as it is. But I will note, you know, the four groups that we're talking about were 413 that were listed, and the others are Al-Qaeda or ISIS affiliates. And that brings a total in Canada of six out of 73 that deal with white supremacists. So it's still, the list is still highly skewed towards Islamic groups. Right, right. And Ben, I'll bring you in here because I know that you and I have talked about on this

podcast before, just like how law enforcement has essentially been dragging their feet here on these groups for a long time? They really have. And I think, you know, one example you want to look at is the Patrick Matthews case. So this individual was completely outed as a member of the base. I believe his house was actually raided by the RCMP. He wasn't arrested. He was at home and then disappeared and his car was found near the American border. And then he was harbored by the RCMP. He wasn't arrested. He was at home and then disappeared. And his car was found near the American border. And then he was harbored by the base for close to six months and started planning terrorist attacks. He helped train other members of the base in weapons and paramilitary styled exercises. Right. Allegedly. terrorism. And when you look at it, these groups haven't left. And like, I'd just like to remind

everyone and everyone listening, you know, before 9-11, the biggest act of domestic terrorism in the United States was Timothy McVeigh. And this was a white nationalist terrorist. So this isn't anything that's that should be new to authorities. But I think there was definitely sort of this complete pivot towards groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS. Michelle, I want to ask you, as someone who traveled around the world covering the war on terror after 9-11, which saw the expansion of terror lists in Canada and other countries, what kinds of questions do you think that people should be asking, whatever their political leanings, about the fact that groups continue to be added to this list?

Yeah, I guess, I guess, you know, as you said, no matter your political leanings, you still have to look at the politics of the war on terror. And that's always been so entrenched in it. If I can just give, I hope this is an intangible, but, you know, going back to the list, one stark incident in the United States about one of these groups that was listed was in the lead up to the Iraq war. And the U.S. was looking for China's support at the U.N. Council to go into the war. And one of China's conditions was to list a Uyghur group, a Uyghur separatist group, as a terrorist entity. The U.S. did that, ironically. China still didn't support the war. But that group, the East Turkestani Islamic Movement, was on the list for years. And that

was purely a political decision at that time. There really wasn't much evidence that the group even existed. So there is this political aspect to the war on terror. And while even those who support the listing of a group as such as the Proud Boys, I think you have to you have to remember that. Right. And Ben, I know there are people including like racialized people and social justice activists on the left who have said that they don't think adding any of these groups to the terror list is a good thing, right? Absolutely. Many people have said this. And I think one of the big fears is if we go back to the summer, and I was reporting on this, that President Trump at the time was demanding that, you know, the amorphous organization known as Antifa be designated terrorist organization.

And, you know, there was a lot of GOP Republican support for this there still is and I think when you have designations like this of the Proud Boys and I don't I do not want to parallel Antifa to the Proud Boys but the Proud Boys are this street fighting you know gang that's almost decentralized I mean clearly they have like a membership structure. But what I fear is that you could use this sort of model and apply it to movements like anti-fascist activism or to Black Lives Matter. And I think that's a legitimate concern. And I should also say, like, when it comes to groups like Black Lives Matter and anti-fascist activists, you know, these groups don't plan street fighting events. They don't plan, you know, bombings.

They don't plan assassinations. They plan protests, you know, and they don't do the things that a typical, that a terrorist organization would do or the things that Proud Boys would do. But I do think there is a fear that when the political pendulum swings the other way, whoever's in power,

that it could be used against absolutely the wrong groups. Well, Michelle, on that note, is it fair to say that another reason why a lot of people are wary of an expansion of this list is because since 9-11, so many people who have done nothing wrong, especially Muslims, Sikhs, Arabs, have gotten caught up in this dragnet of this war on terror? I think that's part of the problem. I mean, after 9-11, billions and billions of dollars went in to create this security apparatus that is still in existence today. And I think that all these groups that have been targeted over the years are going to continue to be targeted, even with the addition of these groups, these white supremacist groups, to the listing. I think that the other groups continue to suffer. And I think, you know, there has to come a time when the war on terror is dismantled. This is the so-called war on terror ends. And we go back to using I mean, it terrorized the community. And yet he wasn't charged with that.

And part of the reason was that the prosecutors didn't need to show that. You know, they could successfully prosecute him for murder, and that's what happened. Alexandre Bissonnette was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 40 years after pleading guilty to six counts of first-degree murder and six of attempted murder. So I think there are existing laws that can take in this type of hate crime without having to keep the war on terror going. Ben? Yeah, and I completely agree.

And I think one way to look at this is just the evidence that is in front of us about these groups that have been designated yesterday. You know, there have been Proud Boys in the United States that have been prosecuted for various crimes. You know, there's crimes on the books. I mean, there's no question a group like Proud Boys is a dangerous extremist organization. But you can get a lot of these guys already

on charges that are on the books. And when it comes to Atomwaffen Division and The Base, these two very outwardly neo-Nazi terrorist organizations, the FBI successfully raided and arrested many of these members on stuff like criminal conspiracy and weapons charges and swatting charges and propaganda charges. So many different things. And they've been able to round you know, round up all these individuals, and also present these cases in court, and many of them are now facing, you know, multi-decade sentences. So I think, you know, when it comes to these laws and empowering the authorities with more laws in the books and more capabilities, it does lead to things like abuses that we saw of the Muslim community,

you know, across the world and in the United States and Canada. You know, I do fear that that possibly could happen here if we then turn this, you know, terrorism industrial complex around and just apply the same things that we did before. Because I think if we look what happened previously, I'm not sure if it completely worked anyway. Right. But just to push back here on the idea that we could use the laws that we already have, you know, designating these groups as terrorist groups, it does, as we've talked about, give the government extra powers, the power to stop fundraising and financial transactions, the power to, you know, charge somebody who maybe is training with the Russian imperial movement in Russia, and then comes back to Canada. And isn't this a good thing?

So, you know, when it comes to some of these attacks, there's not a lot of money that goes into them. You know, you look at something like even some of the bigger attacks that happened from far right organizations in the past, you know, like, or even these lone wolves or in Quebec City. This is an individual who just got a gun and shot a mosque up. And it was, you know, incredibly lethal and incredibly awful. Even 9-11 didn't cost a ton of money. same time, when it comes to something like Russian imperial movement, and you have an individual in Canada, go over to Russia and get trained and come back and you can charge them. I think that that's very effective. And I think it's also effective and more effective when you're looking at groups

like Atomwaffen division in the base, because these groups are planning acts of terror, sort of these large scale casualty events, and they're much harder to find. So you need more specific laws to get them. And also, I think it's it's worth noting that this is good in and of itself, because designating these groups, including the Proud Boys, just as a political statement alone, I think is a is a great thing for deterrence. You know, it's not a good thing to be associated as a Proud Boy anymore in Canada. So that I think in and of itself, it is a good thing. Michelle, anything to add there? Well, I agree with Ben that obviously calling these groups a terrorist organization politically is very, very important. I guess the question is, did the police and intelligence agencies

need these new powers to prosecute them? And let's face it, I mean, we're three white reporters here talking about these groups. We didn't wake up today feeling that the listing of these three groups is going to, you know, make us get targeted as white people. But those were four of 13 groups that were listed this week. And as I said, that's like now just six of 73 on the list in Canada. And the rest have really targeted Muslim communities unfairly. Right. This is such a fascinating conversation.

I could listen to you guys talk about the complexity of this all day. But Ben, before we go today, I do actually have one question about how you think that these designations could affect journalism. that these designations could affect journalism. So I know that you have had a firsthand experience with how Canada's national security apparatus works. In 2019, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that you and Vice had to hand over your notes from interviews with a Calgary man accused of joining ISIS. And so in what ways does this concern people who have been covering the far right like you, now that these groups have been given terrorist designations here? Well, I think in Canada, it's a tremendously threatening thing to have go on because a lot of this involves getting intelligence and web caches and caches of chats between different operatives and different groups. And, you know, as my reporting demonstrates, this is something that I've been accruing and Mac Lamoureux, who I've been reporting with for a few years, you know, we get information from sources inside of groups. And this is

precisely the stuff that I was forced to give over to the RCMP because the RCMP was emboldened by the war on terror and the climate that came from it. I think, you know, given their wins against myself and some of the things that they've tried since, they're definitely willing to do it again. And I think the RCMP, rather than having to, you know, having new powers to go after people like myself or Michelle, should really just get better at policing far right. Michelle, final word to you. Do you share those concerns? Yeah, absolutely.

What Ben went through and what some other journalists have gone through makes it really difficult to report on any terrorism cases. Okay, guys. Michelle, Ben, thank you so much for this really fascinating conversation. I hope you'll come back real soon to continue this. Thanks. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jamie. All right, that is all for this week. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcast. The show was produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, and Allie Janes. Our sound design was by Derek Vanderwyk and Matt Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Front Burner is Nick McCabe-Locos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you on Monday. Thank you.