Front Burner - Qatar and a World Cup controversy

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

This month's FIFA World Cup is a big one for Canada. It's the first time in 36 years that our men's team has qualified to compete, and the last World Cup before Canada shares hosting duties in 2026. But in the decade since Qatar won its bid to host this year's tournament, allegations of bribery, discrimination and human rights abuses have threatened to overshadow the game. Qatar criminalizes same-sex relationships and a report from the Guardian says at least 6,500 migrant workers have died since its successful bid. As players and fans grapple with how to protest, we're joined by Roger Bennett of the Men in Blazers podcast. He's just co-authored a new book called Gods of Soccer and is co-hosting World Corrupt, a podcast that dives deep into FIFA corruption and the World Cup in Qatar.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. When people say, how did you win the World Cup? You know, the simplest answer, and I assure you and I promise you, it is not said in any way with any arrogance.

We were the best bid. So this is Hassan Al-Tawadi speaking back in 2013. He's a secretary general of the group organizing Qatar's FIFA World Cup tournament. Back then, the oil-rich country was already confronting allegations of bribery to get the hosting gig, not to mention abuse of its migrant workers, which some compared to slavery. Well, nearly a decade later, with the event less than two weeks away now, this tournament is no less controversial. Denmark's kit will be toned down,

including a black shirt which the manufacturer calls the colour of mourning. The Socceroos are putting the boot in. 16 players taking United's stand, condemning the World Cup host nation's human rights record. These migrant workers who have suffered are not just numbers. World Cup Qatar starts November 20th, two Sundays from now. And this is a big one for Canada. It's the first time our team has qualified in 36 years, which is incredible. And the last tournament before we co-host it in 2026. But Canada is warning travelers to Qatar

that the country criminalizes same-sex relationships. And the soccer's international governing body, FIFA, is catching a lot of heat for trying to brush off dissent. In a letter sent to 32 teams competing at this month's World Cup, they say it is time to focus on football. So today I'm joined by a true expert on the game and its politics. Soccer fans know Roger Bennett as co-host of the Men in Blazers podcast. He's also just come out with a book called Gods of Soccer and is co-hosting World Corrupt, a deep dive podcast on this very issue.

Roger, hi, it is such a pleasure to have you. Jamie, it is a joy to be with you and everyone in Canada as a World Cup is upon us. Okay, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So let's start here. Take me back to 2010. FIFA president Sepp Blatter announces two World Cup hosts at once. So for 2018, that ended up being Russia, of course. And right after we find out that Qatar won the bid for 2022. And what kind of reaction did that set off in the football world? Jamie, even hearing you say that, I still can't believe it happened or that it happened. And 12 years later, we are now on the cusp of it becoming a reality because it is that insane.

Yeah, there were two. And Russia was a shock. This is Putin's Russia. So the 2018 FIFA World Cup, 2018 FIFA World Cup, ladies and gentlemen, will be organised in Russia. But the moment of shock was Qatar. The winner to organise the 2022 FIFA World Cup is Qatar. This nation with no footballing pedigree, they'd never qualified for the tournament before. A state that's smaller than Connecticut, which FIFA's own analysts, they take all of the bids and they analyze them, had given red flags all over this bid that the nation was so unprepared for the tournament, their stadia. One of them was proposed to be built in a city which itself had not yet

been built. And beyond that, the weather, a desert state. It's so hot. 120 degrees in the summer. You know, Qatar talked about radio-controlled clouds and air-conditioned stadia, but it felt like a sci-fi bit. It felt so craven, so ridiculous, so brazen. But there's very little rationality in the administration. There's only greed and corruption, which is the stain of this game. And this World Cup, as I'm sure we'll discuss, it's unraveled before our eyes. So talk to me about the corruption allegations that have been leveled against FIFA since that fateful day in 2010 when they announced Qatar was getting the World Cup. Yeah, I've just finished this podcast with my friend Tommy Vito of Cork Media. Yeah,

it's very good. Yeah. Despite the fact that I'm in it, Jamie, it is very good. And it's a six part deep dive into why FIFA, football's organising body that's meant to safeguard football, would award this to Qatar. Why Qatar would want the eyes of the world on it in this way. I think in ways it's fair to be said they never imagined the scrutiny that would ensue. And we interviewed in this, you know, journalists, we interviewed government figures, we interviewed people in the Department of Justice in the United States. And there was a Department of Justice spokesperson, Matthew Millett, who went to the bid in 2010 to accompany the United States.

The United States thought they were going to win this bid. They'd been told they were going to win this bid. Many powers in FIFA thought they were going to win this bid. And Matthew Miller went, he went with the great Morgan Freeman, who was meant to be our spokesperson. So he accompanied Morgan Freeman over there. And the night before the bid, he watched in the hotel where all the bigwigs were, including President Clinton, who went over to witness this great moment of American glory. And he watched the power brokers be ushered up to the Qatari suite and then come down as if they'd just been awarded an all paid for trip to Disneyland, just stars in their eyes, hitting the bar immediately. And he said, I have never seen anything more corrupt in my, just stars in their eyes, hitting the bar immediately.

And he said, I have never seen anything more corrupt in my life. And in his words, and he said, I cut my teeth in New Jersey politics. And Tony Soprano will roll in his grave when he hears that. But there's 24 members of the executive committee. They were the ones who were making the voting decisions on where these two bids would be. It's the perfect number to bribe and be bribed. And Sepp Blatter, which only sounds like an infection of the down below is by name. He was actually a Swiss guy who was then FIFA president. Yesterday, 12 years too late, he went to the press in Switzerland and said the award of the 2022 World Cup to Qatar was, quote, a mistake. And he revealed in the article, he said the French vote was the swing vote.

And he said there was a meeting with Sarkozy at the presidential palace and the head of French football and elite football called Michel Platini, where the Qatari crown prince, who's now the emir, met with them both. And that six months after those meetings, Qatar brought fighter jets from the French worth $14.6 billion. That's an indicator of how all of this was done. How do you get a World Cup in such a farcical place with bribery at an epic geopolitical scale. That is wild. And I just, I'll note here that Qatar strongly, strongly has denied any kind of corruption.

The other big controversy here is the construction of these facilities, right? Qatar has among the world's highest proportion of migrant workers versus regular citizens. There's actually over 2 million migrant workers, often from Southeast Asia. And some estimates say that's up to 90% of the population. I did not know that until today. So there are only about 300,000 people that live there. So there are only about 300,000 people that live there. And what have the conditions been like for those workers as they built the facilities for this World Cup?

Yeah, just over 300,000 citizens. There's a couple of million people that live there, but almost all of them are imported. Essentially, the state wanted this, so they weren't forced to, but forced the state to develop on an untold scale to be ready to receive one and a half million tourists. And the bid was originally a standard bid. The World Cup, since its earliest origins, was in summer. It's always been in summer. It's a summer tournament in football's break.

But Qatar, in the summer, a desert climb, murderously hot, 120 degrees up to. You can't play football no matter what Star Wars elements that the Qatari bid had about. That was not really ever going to work. Qatar says its eco-friendly stadiums will keep visitors comfortable whatever the season. But a World Cup is about more than just the football. And Sepp Blatter has begun to realise maybe air conditioning an entire country isn't realistic. And as we got closer and closer to the World Cup, it was decided that they would move this tournament into November. Well, January and February were ruled out to avoid clashing with the 2022 Winter Olympics.

And April is also out because the fasting month of Ramadan begins on the 2nd. And after that, it'll simply just be too hot. From May to September, the conditions will be unbearable for both the players and the fans. But off the field, that's where the human darkness has really been for this World Cup. Six and a half thousand foreign workers were revealed to have lost their lives since the bid was awarded to make Qatar tournament ready, building the roads, building the hotels, building the transport infrastructure,

as well as the stadia. The data comes from just a handful of the countries of origin for workers in Qatar. It doesn't include some of the major contributing nations like the Philippines and Kenya, but it's a fairly safe bet that a lot of them would not have been in the country had it not won the right to host the World Cup.

It's almost mind-boggling when you hear about the work relationship in the kafala system, which has been compared to modern slavery. The sponsors use people in other countries like Bangladesh, for example, as agents. Their job is to travel around looking for workers. Once they find them, the agent takes money for a visa and the worker makes their way to Qatar. Because the worker's residency rights are tied to their employment contracts, the sponsor can stop them switching jobs.

And the inability to change employer leaves workers open to exploitation. I should say the Qatari government, the pushback, very, very hard on this. They claim that only three people have actually died in this time,. It's a Guardian have reported it out. And so this World Cup, which is the joyous spine to my life. Every four years, it's how I measure time. Millions of people around the world feel exactly the same. And now we have to work out how to confront this tournament, which is quite literally soaked in blood for our

entertainment not only us but the teams the Danish team have announced they're going to wear a special kit that's been designed to mask their logo because they want to play football they want to be in the World Cup but they don't they feel a deep shame and they want to signal that shame they have a second strip which is actually actually black for mourning. The Australian team, a stunning video, long video, in which 16 of their players with clearly deep research and incredible moral intelligence. We stand with Faith Pro, the Building and Woodworkers International and the International Trade Union Confederation,

seeking to embed reforms and establish a lasting legacy in Qatar. This is how we can ensure a legacy that goes well beyond the final whistle of the 2022 FIFA World Cup. We're trying to analyse this World Cup, Jamie, in a split screen. You know, what's going to happen on the field? Argentina, England, France, the rest. But what's happening off it? We need to keep eyes on and ultimately to ensure, as Saudi Arabia is trying to get hold of the 2030 World Cup, to make sure that this kind of craven decision making never happens again. I imagine that these athletes, they won't just be asked about the human rights abuses of migrant workers, but also the kingdom's approach to LGBTQ issues and women's rights too, right? Yeah, I mean, not only will they be asked, they are being asked. There's been concern from the very beginning how LGBTQ plus people are treated in Qatar where same-sex relationships are criminalized. And there's been a constant

strumming of, will LGBTQ plus fans be even welcome? By the way, it's a great shame. You can tell I am American now, but I do come from England. The foreign secretary, a gentleman called James Cleverley, said a couple of weeks ago, he said, please do be respectful of the host nation. They will try, they are trying to ensure that people can be themselves and enjoy the football.

And I think with a little bit of flex and compromise at both ends, it can be a safe, secure and exciting World Cup. Which has not gone down well in Britain. And it's just a shocking approach to the problem. Yesterday, a Qatari World Cup ambassador was doing an interview for German television where he described homosexuality as, quote, It was a damage in the mind. Damage in the mind.

A gentleman called Khalid Salman, former Qatari international footballer. The interview was stopped immediately by his PR handler. But when you ask what will players do? Well, the players are already speaking out. Leon Goretzka, who is a German footballer, plays for Bayern Munich, a phenomenal human being. And he said this morning in reaction to Khalid Salman's assessment, he said, it's very oppressive. This gives a human image from another millennium. This is not acceptable. And FIFA put out last week, the head

of FIFA, Gianni Infantino, sent a letter to every player who is going to compete in the tournament where he demanded that the players, quote, focus on the football, please. He said, don't be dragged into, this is his words, every ideological or political battle that exists. Football can't create change. But Jamie, if you Google FIFA and change, put those words into Google, FIFA and change, you will see the same man and the same organisation. They spent pretty much the last two decades boasting that football can change the world. It can change Brazil. It can change South Africa. It can change everywhere it goes. But now they are forced with this horrific moral compromise, really for reasons of self-interest, they've decided just

for a month, can we not talk about change? And I would be shocked if a number of these English players, Marcus Rashford, who's confronted Britain about child hunger and created government change, Raheem Sterling, who's confronted Britain's racist football fandom, players like them and Goretzka will not remain silent. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples,

I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So it's worth noting that in the last few years, Qatar has introduced some labor reforms in response to all the criticism around foreign workers. For example, just introduced a minimum monthly wage for all workers. Employers now also have to provide food and board, something FIFA has been keen to flag up. When it comes to the situation in Qatar in particular, I think we need to be fair there as well and admit that a lot of progress has happened.

But groups like Amnesty International are saying there's a lack of enforcement of these measures i mean look like with all of this scrutiny it begs the question why would katar want all this attention all this criticism in the first place by hosting the world cup yeah i mean they've almost invited it upon themselves and doing this and and modern football and and its relationship to money if you follow football at all, you'll know this. If you don't,

some of the biggest teams in the world, Manchester City, are owned by Abu Dhabi. Paris Saint-Germain are owned by Qatar. There's a new takeover of an English team,

Newcastle by Saudi Arabia, where they are pumping money in. Fans were celebrating at St. James' Park today on hearing their club's been bought by a consortium led by a Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund. Celebrations are novelty on Tyneside with the club languishing perilously close

to the bottom of the Premier League. Nations own football teams now. And why do they do it? They do it because, well, Qatar's in a challenging neighborhood. Geopolitically, there has been so much conflict. And one of the reasons, because I won the World Cup, one of the reasons why the Gulf regions are all reaching out to own football teams to invite Olympics and Formula One and why Saudi Arabia is trying to take over golf with Live Golf is to show the world that they exist, number one. But number two, there's a phenomenon called sports washing, which is when your image is from a human rights perspective, compromised, Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi, a journalist citizen, bone sore to death. It's a horrible thing to say, but it can't be normalized. If you go out and you buy a football team, instead of us thinking Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi, we think of, and this is what they want you, a glorious goal, a transcendent moment of football, thousands of fans jumping up

in harmony, just savoring a sporting glory. You host the World Cup, you think of Qatar, you think of Lionel Messi jinking through three defenders before slapping the ball home deliriously and roaring off in glory. And you bond your image to the poetry of sport, the transcendence of sport. And what I think Qatar did not think through is the phenomenon of the Streisand effect, that in trying not to make people think of you in a certain way, you actually draw more attention to that than you ever wanted.

And Qatar lent into the sports washing and the geopolitical soft power might have hosting a world cup and didn't realize that in doing so we would now think, I mean, I'll be honest. I did not know about the human rights record of Qatar before the World Cup. I did not know about the women's rights. I didn't know about the LGBTQ rights. I didn't know about the foreign worker abuse. And now the whole world will be talking about both of those things, depending on what our teams do, what the German team do, that the Netherlands coach Louis van Ga, is already speaking up quite openly.

And what will the Canadian national team do? What will the US national team do? Those things largely remain to be seen. But that is really, I think, the thing Qatar did not think through, that in trying to draw attention to itself, it couldn't control what kind of attention it would ultimately get. Do you think that it's possible that the sport washing could still, I guess, work, right? Because I'm thinking of Beijing and the Olympics and Russia and the Olympics, and this conversation was very similar in the lead up and then they start and you get, as you said, these incredible moments in sport.

And do you feel like people will just kind of turn their attention elsewhere or get back into the game? We do, Jamie. Jamie, we do. You are so right. These are hard issues to think through. These are painful issues to think through. I love sports because I've always said that was utterly thrilling. Anyone who watched the South Africa World Cup and watched South Africa just show itself to the world in such a glorious, self-confident, wonderful manner. I thought it was always going to be good, Jamie. And I realize how naive I am. It is showing us the world. It is

holding up a reflection of our reality. only the reflection is so incredibly ugly of corruption, skullduggery and abuse and death. Your question is a great one and I cannot answer it. We have to speak again in a month's time when the World Cup is over. There is that phenomenon. Sports is deeply anesthetising bread and circus the moment the whistle does blow do we forget everything do we become caught up in those storylines can france defend their their tournament you know can leonel messi in his fifth and final world cup finally

there was a shirt the argentinian show which has weighed him down like chain mail, throw it off and play with joy. Can you Canadian boys back in the big time just show the world what Canadian football is really about and make some noise? Those are the things I do think we are going to get caught up in them. But at the same time, you know, I went to Russia in 2018 and I realised retrospectively that ultimately we were doing Vladimir Putin's bidding. We were, all of us, every single journalist, wherever we were, Moscow, St. Petersburg, wherever, we were just pumping back propaganda that we didn't know we were at the time. But, oh, this is great. I mean, Moscow looks incredible. St. Petersburg, shimmering.

And I believe the journalists, the broadcasters are savvier for that experience knowing now what Russia has done in the wake of that and also Qatar is Qatar is so tiny this is a surreal World Cup by lifting the tournament up to November it's created a eerie soulless World Cup with no run-up, with no build-up, with no... Really, the hype is... I have World Cup fever ahead of any tournament, and many of your listeners will too. I'll be honest, it's a low-grade fever. And I do think that FIFA have realized that they're making these decisions, taking the money, and I imagine it was bank loads, you know, bank truckloads of cash that were backed up to make this. They are in danger of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Yeah.

Roger, this was really such a pleasure to talk to you today. And I do hope that you will come back in about a month's time. It would be great to catch up. Thank you for this. Thank you. Thank you. And Canada, just save every second, make great memories with your boys. They are a fantastic team and I wish you all glory.

All right. So just a note to say that we are going to come back to the incredible men's team that is playing in this year's Cup really soon, probably next week. So please stay tuned for that episode. That's all for today, though. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.