Front Burner - Queen Elizabeth at the end of an empire

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Queen Elizabeth took the throne at the age 25, and stayed there through seven decades, 15 British prime ministers and the longest reign in U.K. history. From the earliest days as Queen, Elizabeth grappled with the British Empire transforming into a Commonwealth with more self-determined nations. But in more recent years, the Queen also ruled through the death of Princess Diana, numerous royal family scandals, and political upheaval like Brexit. Today, royal historian Carolyn Harris gives us a look back at how the Queen dealt with a colonial legacy, and a look forward at how the monarchy could change without her.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. I'm Jamie Poisson. The Queen is dead. And it's really a surreal moment.

The BBC is interrupting its normal programmes to bring you an important announcement. This is BBC News from London. Buckingham Palace has announced the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. The Queen has died and long live the King. This will clearly come as devastating news for the royal family and millions of people across the United Kingdom and around the world. Before I was even born, Queen Elizabeth II had already been on the throne for

32 years. I'm sure this is the case for a lot of you. She reigned for over 70 years, the longest ever in the UK, taking the throne at only age 25. She's dealt with 15 prime ministers. I remember watching her Christmas addresses with my British grandmother in her basement. And then more recently, when she sat alone, head bowed, dressed in black at the funeral for her husband, Prince Philip. That vision of the queen all alone looking at her husband's coffin, those are images you won't soon forget. Or her rare speech acknowledging the grief and real financial hardships during the pandemic. I hope in the years to come, everyone will be able to take pride

in how they responded to this challenge. We will be with our friends again. We will be with our families again. We will meet again. Buckingham Palace says the Queen passed peacefully at her Scottish estate. The memorials have been pouring in. She was our Queen for almost half of Canada's existence.

And she had an obvious, deep, and abiding love and affection for Canadians. She was one of my favourite people in the world, and I will miss her so. Queen Elizabeth II was the rock on which modern Britain was built. She was the very spirit of Great Britain. But she was also the head of a monarchy that once colonised huge swaths of the world. So today, to sort through seven decades of her rule, I'm talking to Carolyn Harris. She's a historian and author who's done a whole lot of writing on the queen and on the monarchy. Carolyn, I really, I know that you're so busy today and I want to thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.

Thank you. Before we really get started here, I wonder, at a time when there's so much about the monarchy and about the legacy of Queen Elizabeth to untangle, how are you going to remember her? I remember Queen Elizabeth II as presiding over this period of remarkable political, cultural and social change. Certainly her grandson, Prince William, has commented on how extraordinary it is at the age of 25 that she stepped into this role at a time when there weren't very many women in politics. At the time, she was a woman in a man's world, but she's done it brilliantly. And so she's devoted her life to public service and has become one of the most familiar and respected figures of the world. So this very much feels like the end of an era,

and for many people it was just hard to imagine that this day would ever come. Right. I mean, it was seven decades ago that the queen took the throne. And since then, humanity has entered space. The Soviet Union collapsed. The Internet happened. So when the queen began her reign in 1953, tell me, like, what was the state of a British empire and dominions was relatively new. And so the queen would be the one who would preside over this transition, this whole process of decolonization. And it's a role the queen has taken extremely seriously. And it's a role the queen has taken extremely seriously. When you say equal nations, like equal on paper, like how did it play out in real life? Well, this had been a long transition.

For a long time, the dominions had self-government, but Britain managed their foreign policy. their foreign policy. And of course, the enormous losses during the First World War led to calls for the dominions to have greater control over their own foreign policy. So the Statute of Westminster, the 1930s, during the reign of the Queen's grandfather, had established that there was one monarch, but separate crowns. So that applied to Canada, Australia, New Zealand. But it was during Queen Elizabeth II's reign that that very long process of decolonization occurred in Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, and many of these nations to decide whether they would become republics or choose another form of government or become realms with the monarch still as head of state. And how do you think the queen and the monarchy managed to keep so many nations like

Canada together as they are now in the Commonwealth? Well, I think that the Queen clearly took the Commonwealth as an institution very seriously, and she traveled very widely, met people from all walks of life. There's iconic moments in Canada. Some are riding the monorail at Expo 67. And at Expo 67, the gaiety of her informality was infectious. A great attraction for everyone, the Queen included, was the mini-rail. Or the Patriation of the Constitution, 1982. The Constitution is now home. Fanfare in the background, as you can hear. But there were also more informal moments.

The Queen dropping the puck at a Vancouver Canucks game in 2002 with her emblem on the jumbotron and the crowd cheering. Good behavior of hockey players after the Queen dropped the puck for the ceremonial opening face-off during last night's game between Vancouver and San Jose. Today we found out the player on the left put in his teeth and stuffed his long hair into his jersey for the royal ceremony. So we have these moments where the queen was seen in a very clear Canadian context, and it's the same when she travels to other Commonwealth countries.

And just when we say decolonization and her role in presiding over decolonization, we should be clear, the effects of being colonized are still being felt. Yes, yes. We've seen members of the royal family grappling with that imperial past as well on their overseas tours, acknowledging some of the more difficult moments in history in some of these Commonwealth countries that they visit. Right. I know, you know, for example, the Queen, she's never actually apologized for it, but the monarchy does have a deep history with slavery, right?

Yes. We don't see members of the royal family offering formal apologies, but there's certainly recognition of the suffering that's taken place. Prince Charles spoke quite forcefully about the atrocity of slavery when he was in Barbados last year for that transition from Commonwealth realm to Commonwealth Republic. From the darkest days of our past and the appalling atrocity of slavery, which forever stains our history, the people of this island forged their path with extraordinary fortitude. when she was undertaking overseas tours, would often acknowledge some of those more difficult historical moments. And a key example of that is Ireland in 2011. It is impossible to ignore the weight of history. The Queen gave a speech, partly in Gaelic, in which she acknowledged there were things that could have been done differently

and should have been done differently. To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past, I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy. With the benefit of historical hindsight, we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all. And she had a moment of silence in India at the site of the Amritsar massacre in 1997, and that that was seen as acknowledging what had been done by the British troops. And so even when we don't see formal apologies taking place, we do certainly see recognition of past wrongs. A more recent example as well was Charles and Camilla's visit to Canada for the Platinum Jubilee, in which Prince Charles, now King Charles, spoke of listening to indigenous peoples and of the pain caused by the residential school system.

It has been deeply moving to have met survivors of residential schools who with such courage have shared their experiences. On behalf of my wife and myself, I want to acknowledge their suffering and to say how much our hearts go out to them and their families. Right. And of course, I know there have been calls here in Canada for the Queen to apologize as the head of the Church of England for the role that the Anglican Church played in residential schools. And I don't think we have gotten an official apology, right? Yes, there has been acknowledgement, but not an official apology. And it's complicated as defender of the faith remains part of the monarch's title in Canada. It remains to be seen in the new reign how the new monarch in his coronation will acknowledge other faiths

as well, and what sorts of changes that we will continue to see to the monarch's role. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. through Angel Investment and Industry Connections. income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Besides its influence abroad, The monarchy also used to get involved in politics domestically. So

how would you say the queen made a new role for herself at home? Well, the queen has become a force for national unity and also a figure that her people turned to in a crisis. She gave her first speech during the Second World War at the age of just 14 to the children of the Commonwealth. Thousands of you in this country have had to leave your homes and be separated from your fathers and mothers. To you living in new surroundings, we send a message of true sympathy. And at the same time, we would like to thank the kind people who have welcomed you to their homes in the country. And then she spoke during the coronavirus pandemic 80 years later.

Together we are tackling this disease. And I want to reassure you that if we remain united and resolute, then we will overcome it. She very much drew parallels to how society was having to come together in these times of crisis in both the Second World War and during the COVID-19 pandemic. So being a source of stability and unity in times of crisis has become very important to the Queen's role. And I don't want this to sound like too obvious a question, but when you, why was it that it was so important to her to stay out of politics or to try to stay out of politics? Well, some of the Queen's predecessors, Queen Victoria, for instance, we know which prime

ministers she liked and which ones she didn't like. And that sometimes caused complications of prime ministers where perhaps their party had the confidence of the house, but didn't always feel like they had the confidence of the monarch. Whereas Queen Elizabeth II has been very careful that whichever prime minister she invites to form a government, this is her government. So there's been all sorts of speculation. There was even a play written on the audience imagining what happens during her audiences with her prime ministers. But the queen's been quite careful not to express the kind of open political views that some of her predecessors have done. And I also wanted to talk to you about the image of the monarchy and its place really in

popular culture. I think the existence of the show The Crown is a good example of how much scandal and how much interest there's been in the royal family. So in particular, how do you think the passing of Princess Diana in 1997 challenged the image of the Queen. Well, Diana, the Princess of Wales, combined glamour and vulnerability. So, so many people felt as though they could relate to her on a personal level. There's this outpouring of mourning. People were hugging one another in the streets. She was a wonderful and a warm human being. She touched the lives of so many

others in Britain throughout the world with joy and with comfort. And meanwhile, when the news came, the Queen was at Balmoral Castle with her family, and the Queen wanted to remain there because she thought that was best for her grandsons, for Prince William and Prince Harry, to have some space to be able to grieve. But there was such public demand for the royal family to come and mourn the national climate of mourning, those tabloid headlines saying, show us you care. The Queen was able to turn that around fairly quickly by returning to London. The royal family returned from Balmoral today, and they produced an unprecedented series of walkabouts. The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh and Prince Charles and his

two sons all mingled with mourners. By giving a speech about her feelings as a grandmother, regardless of what her own private, more complicated feelings towards Diana perhaps were. First, I want to pay tribute to Diana myself. She was an exceptional and gifted human being. In good times and bad, she never lost her capacity to smile and laugh, nor to inspire others with her warmth and kindness. But there were concerns going into the Golden Jubilee of 2002. The Queen might not get the kind of popular acclaim that, say, Queen Victoria received in her Golden Jubilee in 1887.

But there was an enormous outpouring of warmth towards the Queen. So the Queen has managed to weather some very difficult times in her reign and in her family. Britain's skies are glowing tonight with 2,000 jubilee beacons. As I have travelled across this country over the years, I have been struck so often by such a clear sense of pride and this visit has confirmed once again that this confidence and pride is well placed yeah you know it's interesting because i'm i'm thinking too of more recent scandals in her family uh her son andrew with his ties to sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, who has now settled with a woman who accused him of raping her, though he admitted no guilt. Then, of course, Prince Harry married actress Meghan Markle, and they left their royal duties.

And they gave, of course, that very unflattering picture of the royal family in their interview with Oprah. And yet, these scandals, they seem to me to endear people more to the Queen. Is that fair? Yes, there was real concern about the stress the Queen was experiencing in her 90s. And it's very striking that when they were speaking to Oprah Winfrey, Harry and Meghan were careful to emphasize their personal respect for the Queen, that they were continuing to be in contact with her, and that they had fond memories. Meghan mentioned a public engagement. So while Harry has been quite critical of his father and his brother, it was made very clear that there was still very strong fondness for his grandmother on a personal level.

And we saw in the Queen's last hours that the Queen's children, grandchildren, even if there were differences between some of them, that they were all united in gathering at Balmoral Castle at the end, united by that common respect and love for the queen. Tell me more about why you think it is that people have this affection for her, like even in the face of a popularity and support of a monarchy fade, right? What is it about her? I think it's this life devoted to public service.

She had a few years of comparatively carefree life when she was first married and Prince Philip was a naval officer and went to live near the naval base in Malta and was able to have time, you know, going shopping with the other naval wives and getting her hair done. health faded while the Queen was still in her early 20s and had two young children, that she very much stepped into this role of public duties. And also the Queen's lifetime has become synonymous with her era. When she was 18, she served in the Auxiliary Territorial Service in the United Kingdom during the Second World War. The princess was treated the same as the rest of her company during their training and was able to mix with young people from different backgrounds. This was quite unusual for the time, and there was great press interest in seeing the young heir to the throne during her military training.

Photographers captured her dressed in overalls and working on vehicle engines and changing tyres, and the press even named her Princess Auto Mechanic. So becoming the first female member of the royal family to take up active service in the military. So even though the queen is very careful to keep a lot of opinions to herself, for many people, she's one of the most familiar figures in the world because she's been there for so many key historical events. You know, now that she has passed away, this figure, as you've just described, who is an institution in her own right, what do you think happens to the monarchy now? You know,

we began this conversation talking about how when she took the throne, countries were shaking off the colonial yoke. And today we're seeing a new push with countries trying to shed the Commonwealth yoke. Barbados dropped the queen as head of state. Jamaica's prime minister says they want to cut ties with the monarchy. And so what happens now? Well, I think we're going to see, particularly in the Caribbean realms, more transitions from realm to republic. That doesn't necessarily mean shaking off the Commonwealth, but it means shaking off the monarch as head of state while still acknowledging the monarch's

role as head of the Commonwealth. So certainly we will likely see more of those transitions. In some of the other Commonwealth realms, however, it seems that a transition away from constitutional monarchy is unlikely. In Canada, all 10 provinces would have to agree, and they very rarely agree on anything. And the House of Commons and the Senate would also have to agree on a transition to a new form of government. And there are treaties between the Crown and Indigenous peoples. So Indigenous peoples would certainly need to be consulted and transitioning to another form of government. But what we may see is less visibility for the royal family in subsequent reigns. There are very few working members of the royal family at this time. Charles and Camilla's Platinum Jubilee tour of Canada was only a few days long. They had a very busy schedule, what was then representing the Queen, and that schedule

will only become busier now that they are the King and the Queen consort. So we may see fewer royal tours, less visibility for the royal family, but I think it's unlikely that there will be in Canada a formal change in our system of government as it's become so enmeshed in politics and law and history. Yeah, we were talking on the show a little while back about just how logistically complicated it would be. I had no idea. You know, we've been talking about this affection that people have for her and the reasons why, of course, it's no secret that that same affection doesn't exist for her son, perhaps for her grandson, but not for her son. And so how do you think that that might play into the future of the legacy of this family and the monarchy? Well, that debate was unfolding when Queen Victoria passed away in 1901.

Very few people could imagine her son in that role that she played. Edward VII at the time was known for having mistresses and going to the races and just generally having too much time on his hands. So it was difficult to imagine anyone else in Queen Victoria's role. But he ended up gaining the respect of the public through his role as a diplomat on the European stage. He undertook some quite successful European tours. So I think King Charles may surprise people. His interests are very much in keeping with the concerns of the 21st century in terms of his concerns about climate change and sustainability. He was an early pioneer with organic farming and popularizing that as well. And he has concerns about youth unemployment,

has promoted interfaith dialogue. So even though certainly there is baggage from past decades and the breakdown of Charles's marriage to Diana, stepping into this new role, he may well exceed the expectations of many people who find it very difficult to imagine anyone else except Queen Elizabeth II in that role. Carolyn, thank you so much for this. Thank you. Thank you. this. Thank you. Thank you. That is all for this week. Front Burner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. It was produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Derek Vanderwyk, Simi Bassi, Ali Janes, and Ashley Frazier. Our sound design was by Matt Cameron and Sam McNulty. Our music is by Joseph Chavison. The show's executive producer is Nick McKay-Blocos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.