Front Burner - Recordings reveal duelling realities of trucker protests

Episode Date: February 4, 2022

Protesting truckers and their supporters have been communicating via a walkie-talkie app called Zello. On the show today, we bring you the sound of their actual conversations, which reveal a wide gulf between how they see themselves, and how their critics view them.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I'm just going to be real with you guys that I was there over the weekend and it was the most beautiful thing I've ever been to in my entire life. The truckers have nothing but good in their hearts.

Driving through town and seeing all those smiling faces, no masks on most people, just smiling faces. There's hope, guys. Here's hope, guys. Hi, I'm Jamie Pusser. And what you're hearing are real messages traded by supporters of the Freedom Convoy protests in Ottawa. I want to see my grandkids grow up and never have known about this COVID, masks, mandates or vaccines. No division here. Healthcare worker from Alberta. Go, truckers, go! They're talking on this platform called Zello.

from Alberta. Go, truckers, go! They're talking on this platform called Zello. The app sort of simulates a walkie-talkie, where you hold a button and broadcast your voice to everyone else tuned in. And while many people across the country are having conversations about harassment, police investigations,

and outrage over hate symbols in Ottawa, Canadians using this app are cheering on what they see as a moral triumph. Canadian here, but living in Poland, I just want to say thank you so much. I was watching last night in Ireland, and oh my goodness, it was amazing to see. You're the first country who actually came up with a game plan to free the world. This week, we spent hours and hours and hours listening to Zello and recording. And we tuned in because we wanted to understand this enormous perception gap

between how the convoy supporters see themselves and how huge swaths of this country see the protesters. What we found is the people on these channels have an entirely different vision of Canada. If this doesn't work, what's happening next isn't going to be so peaceful. The true story is peace, love, and unity and that's where we're going. They just haven't realized it yet, but they will. What became very clear to us is that the mainstream conversation and this network behind the convoys exist in different realities.

And how you see this protest and the self-evident truths about Canada are completely different depending on which silos you're in. This convoy made everything, you know, brought me hope. And it was for the first time in my entire life, I think, that I've actually had immense pride as a Canadian, even more than an American would have for their country. Just a couple of points to clarify here before we keep going. Lots of people in these channels use screen names, so we don't know who they are. Which also means you can't tell

who in the rooms are legit supporters and who's lurking. We also can't say for sure which voices are inside Canada. Of course, since you'll be hearing from various conversations, not all of these people are connected or affiliated with each other. And finally, you're going to hear a lot of misinformation and some pretty disturbing views in these conversations today. So when you open up Zello, you can start adding channels, which are big rooms that connect everyone inside's walkie-talkies. channels, which are big rooms that connect everyone inside's walkie-talkies. There's easily a dozen channels talking about the protest convoys in Canada, and some exceed a thousand listeners at a time. Don't compare this to the Cold War. Many people died in the Cold War. There's nobody dying at this protest. The Cold War is called the Cold War because nobody died. I personally

found it very offensive as my grandfather fought in Vietnam. Anyone can join most of these channels. So if you open them all up, you're getting here some strange things. When I was a kid, I did that 23andMe. I bet you China has a replica of me somewhere in a freezer and that makes me stay up at night every single night. Okay, I think everybody needs to calm down just a little bit. Because of all the chaos in Crosstalk, we're going to be doing a bit of editing and montaging today. So some of the first conversations we heard discuss something the mainstream has debated a lot. What these convoy protests are actually about.

Oh my God, I'm mind baffled right now. Like, the point is completely missed. Freedom of choice. If you don't quite understand how that works, look it up. Ever said I didn't understand the freedom of choice. What I'm stating is a lot of people aren't really understanding what this is about. Yeah, but that's because of the media. Fear is a wonderful division tool. People are understanding the fact that we've never worried about who took what or did what or did anything before. Organizers originally said the protest was about Canada mandating vaccines for cross-border truckers.

But since the U.S. put in the same rule, those organizers spoke about stopping all mandates and even deposing the government. Others seem to think it's simpler than that. I think we really just need to get off the topic of vaccines. It's very divisive, especially inside of a group like this, where lots of people are and lots of people aren't. The whole point is just for people to have the opportunity to make the decision for themselves. It's about people having a choice, bodily autonomy and fighting against tyranny. So let's all stand together on that and forget everything else. Why isn't nobody freaking out that the flu vaccine ain't mandated? Are you upset that your neighbor got the flu vaccine or didn't get the flu vaccine? Come on. Just like the protests, these Zillow channels are a big tent, which can lead to disagreement. Oh my gosh, guys, quit.

Please stop talking about the vaccines. This is about mandates. No disrespect towards you, but this is about vaccine mandates. So we are allowed to talk about the vaccine. So you're literally being uneducated right now. And to be clear, almost all of the supporters we heard seem to distrust the vaccines. Misinformation about them is rampant. You mean the vaccine that seems to work so well that our prime minister has taken three

and still got COVID? Never had the flu, never taken COVID vaccine, never had COVID. You know, realistically, you're compounding two risks at this point. If you're compounding the risks from the vaccine and the risks from COVID. I support vaccines, but this one has zero testing. Absolutely zero. So health regulators across the world have approved the vaccines. They have been subjected to rigorous peer review testing

and found that they reduce your risk of infection and reduce your risk of serious symptoms massively. But many supporters will say that they're willing to put their criticisms of vaccine science aside for a bigger goal. We are all one. Just some of us were educated differently. That's all. I think it's great that we've got both sides of the argument here. And just know we're fighting for everybody because we don't know where this is going to go a year or two years from now, how many boosters, how many other mandates. There's people who are constantly joining the channel to disagree with the supporters or to disrupt them with jokes and spam.

I've called a few and they can't get down, but like I've been trying to start it up and I started up and it just goes. Don't fall for it. I saw that one coming i i just wanted to play a mode a little bit i knew it was coming the trolling was very common one of their running pranks involved this x-rated comedy metal song called ram ranch they sign up they play the song and they get blocked. CJ734 is unblocking trolls. Yeah, see how easy that was? Look, I'm back again, you dumb. This trolling is also the perfect example of the chasm between the mainstream reality and the protesters. Some of the supporters simply can't understand why these trolls or any Canadians would be opposed to the protests. They're almost incredulous. The trolls are very low vibrational. You can just tell in the

conversation how they interact. Like, again, like you guys say, who would not want this? Why are you fighting against this? What is wrong with you? Just to understand how people can't be on board with this movement. It's like, do you want to wear masks the rest of your life? Do you want to have to keep getting jabs just to hold a job? Mass psychosis, that's the answer. And lots of fluoride in the water. I find weird that my friends are trying to separate me because I don't have the vaccine.

I don't understand why there's so much hatred because I don't have the vaccine. Like, they don't literally want to talk to me. They don't want to spend time with me. There is one thing on these channels that all the supporters seem to agree on. Can I just get a big shout out for our leader in command, Trudeau? I can't run the U.S. anymore thanks to him putting these stupid mandates in. It's pretty clear that Trudeau

is the terrorist. You guys know Trudeau's a pedophile, right? I love how Trudeau just thinks everybody's gonna go home today, tomorrow. Trudeau makes a really good sales rep for the vaccine. Trudeau, what are you doing at negative 25 and up at the cottage right now? Bring your six-pack, come on down, come out and party with us. And the hatred of Trudeau runs so deep. A lot of supporters see his hand everywhere. Take, for

example, some of the hate symbols we've seen in the crowds at Parliament Hill. And this week, the man on the right was wearing a yellow star while driving to the protest in Ottawa. Some supporters try to downplay the hate. The whole point of someone walking around with a Nazi sign is not that they're claiming that they're a Nazi, that the governments are acting like Nazis. But you never know.

It's still not acceptable. The explanation from others is that wasn't us. Do you mean Adam Stoddy, Trudeau's personal photographer, who was caught with the Nazi flag and the Confederate flags themselves, staging photos? Is that what you mean? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Trudeau was hiring people to come to the protest to make it look like we're a bunch of Nazi-hating people. They'll make a mockery of it.

I'm surprised they haven't driven a truck through a building yet saying this is truckers when it comes to protest signs and an upside down flag put on a statue of terry fox on the hill there was more of a different defense a canadian flag on the terry fox memorial is not defacing it other other activist groups have put other kinds of flags on, like a short while ago, they were putting a pride flag on him. They've put masks on him. It was an upside down Canadian flag. You dimwit.

You dimwit. An upside down flag means your country is in distress. Then there's other controversies, like the Ottawa Paramedic Association saying ambulances were pelted with rocks. I heard that some Antifa threw rocks at an ambulance and used some slurs. It's always the Antifa. Trudeau hired him himself. I've seen the police report on it and they just used the word protesters. They didn't say which group of

protesters. So, of course, the media will immediately assume it's the convoy. You may have heard about the Shepherds of Good Hope homeless shelter, which reported protesters harassed staff for meals and said a security guard and service user were assaulted. I can confirm, no, that did not happen. My brother was there for three days. I confirm that did not happen. It was the food he's seen on the trailers. He was trying to say that the trucker stole it from the homeless, which did not happen. Still, it's true that most of the people on Zillow think these sort of actions are wrong. And they're angry because they say the media has blown up these events. It's not just anybody in this group. It's one or two or three or four, maybe 10 bad apples in that entire group

that painted this over top of everybody. The amount of misinformation on the mainstream media is, it is absolutely amazing how they are twisting the entire thing to be what they want it to be. So opponents to the protest came on to Zello and rightly asked why protesters didn't put a stop to hate symbols. The bad apples were asked to leave. There is footage of it, but their flags were not ripped from them and they weren't strong-armed into leaving because that could have incited violence. It could have gotten violent. They could have started throwing punches if we tried to steal their flag. Really, for supporters, there's a fear that all of this controversy is making the mainstream miss the point. The whole thing with the Terry Fox statue has been completely cleaned up. Likewise, when it

comes to the urination of the unmarked, unnamed soldier. If you're just watching the mainstream and you're not going on the lives and you're not seeing how they're paying back in the city and cleaning everything up and you're not seeing the good human acts of kindness that are happening, then you're listening too much to just what the mainstream is feeding you. So you're basically patting yourself on the back for cleaning up the mess you created and then you're using that to justify assaulting other people. I should say, Ottawa police say they've launched over a dozen investigations related to the protests. They've also made three arrests. One man charged for threats on social

media, one for mischief to property, and another for carrying a weapon to a public meeting. They've set up a hate crime hotline. Obviously, not all the protest supporters are happy with police. It's funny how many police officers are down there, but then they can't catch these people that are doing these horrible things, ruining our protests. Why can't they stop these people? It's almost like they're in on it. The police in Ottawa have been really good, so until there's a problem with them, let's refrain from divide there too. Ottawa police said Wednesday they were discussing applying for court injunction

to end the protests but also some supporters claimed they got different messages on the ground. You know they weren't arresting anyone anytime they came by me they kind of gave me a high five you know not really touching my hand but raised their hand give me a wave give me a smile, whatever. You know, I would say that 95% of the police there were, like, wow, in unison with all the truckers there. While many convoy supporters believe the government is persecuting them, they also believe the public has their backs. You might remember when Trudeau made these comments a week ago now. The small fringe minority of people who are on their way to Ottawa or who are holding unacceptable views that they're expressing.

Well, in the eyes of some supporters, this protest is far from niche. Can we know the official truck count in Ottawa? I keep seeing 50,000, but I personally can't confirm. I think it was up to 100,000. Was it 100,300? Last I heard from Pat King, it was about, and Ottawa police, a couple days ago, it was like 1.4 million people. You mean the French minority that's bringing their 12 trucks? 1.4 million is the population of Ottawa,

so I think that might have been what the police were talking about. We also have to remember that we've just put 2.3 million additional people into Ottawa and surrounding areas that will bring the cell towers down. Based on estimates from the Ottawa police, we know about 8,000 were actually protesting on the hill on Saturday. And that's fallen to hundreds through the week. But some of the people we heard don't believe the numbers are actually down. There was a few mainstream medias down there, but they were shooting down empty streets with no people, no cars. But if you took a step 10 feet back and looked left or right, all you could see was wall-to-wall truckers.

They're just trying to downplay it like it's super small. And even though the Canadian Trucking Alliance estimates almost 90% of Canadian truckers are vaccinated, a few people seem to think all truckers support the protest. So why doesn't all the truckers just go on strike, period, in Canada instead of going to Ottawa? Just shut down all the rigs, put it to a halt. That's it. No deliveries, no nothing. Interesting to note, last week polling from Angus Reid suggested 54% of Canadians think it's time to end COVID restrictions and leave responsibility for isolating to those at risk.

But that's not the same thing as being against vaccines or vaccine mandates. And downtown Ottawa is a good example of how even if many people agree on restrictions, there are other frictions between protesters and the public. The truckers have been in Ottawa for almost a full week now, and the public. The truckers have been in Ottawa for almost a full week now, and the horns are even blaring through Zello. I'm just saying, man, you're not making any friends this way, not in town. Like, you gotta, like, just keep it quiet on the weeknights at least. And you know, some supporters seem to consider the impact on locals.

I copy that. I copy that. That's that. In fact, that's a good idea. I love that you came in here to say that. How do you think that the people who have lost their jobs are feeling right now? This is a voice. Those horns are a voice to the frustration that they've been feeling. The frustration of those trying to sleep is understandable.

And yeah, we should definitely be considered at them. Maybe like a shorter time period like three in the morning to whenever protests start come on it's a protest man you didn't go there to be quiet to cater to everybody we went there to make a statement and unfortunately making a statement means noise because uh you know we're fringe and we're not heard In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. It bears repeating here that no one person on these channels represents everyone's views. But we did hear conversations that show this movement is absolutely attracting people with extreme views. There is a hugely outsized amount of conspiracy theories.

We could all end up on concentration counts in a short while if CCP comes in and takes over like the plan is. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but do you ever wonder if Trudeau is not really in power? Justin Trudeau is a globalist. Go to the World Economic Forum website and see what the future holds. Anyway, God did say this would happen in the last days. Polio vaccines and adeno vaccines were contaminated with sv40 which is now prevalent in pretty much all tumors and cancer i think we all had covered in late 2019 before this all came out all you need is just like a mack truck man and i'm fairly convinced that that was covered from what i understand it's a way to manipulate the weather uh to to create

the weather to create different weather patterns in specific areas. So in this case, it's a snowstorm in Ottawa to harm this cause. Once again, there is no evidence that anything you just heard is true. And many supporters and moderators in these channels are wary of what that talk could mean for the movement. Please, let's not get on the topic of cloning sheep. Yeah, let's not use this channel for that. But I have a Telegram channel called the... And yeah, there's a lot of information. And I understand the big picture here.

But what the truckers are doing is a good, good shot we have. And I'm behind it. and it's about the mandate. The last thing we need is more sheep anyway. Exactly. That collision you just heard is a constant theme here, individuals' views bumping up against their united goals for the movement. At one point, they started debating whether they should line up with Canadian Pat King.

Wanted to say to any truckers on the ground right now that Pat King has reserved four rooms at the Holiday Inn. I thought we were not talking to Pat King. Yeah, I thought we weren't associating with Pat King just because of the whole white supremacy thing and kind of goes against her whole mandate. Pat King is not a white supremacist and we can talk about him in here. Just, you know, don't start spreading rumors now. There's quite literally videos of him going on about white supremacy and white bloodlines. The CBC was the ones who tried to label Pat as a white supremacist. There has been no proof. Honestly I feel like it's irrelevant because if he's labeled as that, you have to do your part and distance yourself from somebody like that. There are indeed videos of Pat King

saying racist and white supremacist things. And that's what the goal is, is to depopulate the Anglo-Saxon race because they are the ones with the strongest bloodlines. because they are the ones with the strongest bloodlines. Then there's people who see the mandates in Canada as tyrannical and are pushing for more extreme, more violent action. Honestly, why don't we really just rush the parliament, just like they did when Trump was in office? Why don't we just show Trudeau that we're serious and not just stand in the streets? You know, what is Canada going to do?

I highly doubt they're going to shoot us. We're not like Americans. Americans are totally different when it comes to violence and protesting. Canada, I guarantee we could go through the parliament and do something. Because Canadians actually have brains. Moderators do take a harder stance on those escalations. Anybody who is instigating any kind of violence, like storming the Capitol or stuff like that,

you can actually silence or boot them because free speech is not covered under things like inciting violence. The channels hit back against obvious racism, too. So I'm sending you a whole lot of love with a trucking beep beep. Speak English, please. No, we heard what she said. Thank you very much for the support. But casually racist or homophobic comments often fly past. And the ones that don't do peaceful protests, those are your BLMs, your Black Lives Matter.

This Peter Fonseca dude on Parliament talking right now is definitely wearing makeup and lipstick. I'm living in the twilight zone. And this all gets to an even bigger, more fundamental tension here. This is a movement that's supposed to be about freedom. But in real time, it's struggling to decide what can and can't

be said. And who can say it? You're pissing on our war monuments. Get that through your thick skulls. I serve this country. Hey, if you don't support this movement, get off this channel, please. This is for positivity on here. And let's watch the language. Remember, we have little ears. We are looking at ourselves and we are proud and you may not stand with us, but we stand with you. Sending you lots of love. Well, I just want to say we can't

ban the trolls. We'd be taking away their freedom. So we can't be hypocrites like Trudeau. He claims that we have freedom, but he's taking it away. And you know what? Muting people is not stopping their freedom of speech. It is to keep this positive and keep those in Ottawa encouraged and going and all of those on the road to and from. It's maybe appropriate that we're talking about the Zello Channel's attempts at self-governance because I've come to think of what's gone on in them kind of as a different world. Take, for example, how they get their information. Yeah, the convoy in Coutts, they're sitting on the Alberta-Montana border blocking, they were blocking off some traffic, I guess, but the media is trying to say that they had it completely blocked down.

Yes, I've been keeping up with Rebel News, and the only thing I can confirm at this time is that the Alberta border, the SWAT, and RCMP were involved. As these people are talking, the blockade at the Cootes border crossing was stopping traffic and trade. It was earlier in the week, and since they didn't trust big media, they were really relying on each other to decide what was happening in the West. I've also heard reports of Midway border in BC starting to see signs of a blockade and an anti-protest with some Antifa members happening. Of course, this is just breaking news and my source is about 50 percent. That BC blockade didn't happen and truckers and coots agreed to open one lane in traffic each way. But a second blockade has appeared further north.

There's also the support system protesters have built, where they're physically helping each other stay supplied in Ottawa. I remember hearing that someone's looking for a mechanic. Guys, we need to get some porta-potties down here. People are offering to pick up the trucker's clothes, wash them, and return them. We're going to be getting a significant snowfall, like 10 to 15 centimeters. So a lot of fresh snow on the snow banks for you to do your business,

just to take advantage of what Mother Nature can offer you. In the same way I've seen people on Twitter celebrate their public health officials or workers as heroes, these channels often celebrate Elon Musk. Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that Elon Musk made another tweet. I was listening really late one night and there was a little young boy on, kind of talking about how he gets bullied and that he has dumb ideas, this little boy was saying.

And then somebody came on and I swear to goodness, it was Elon Musk. It sounded exactly like him. So Elon Musk might be listening. The political discourse balances somewhere completely different. Earlier this week, while many of us grappled with whether Aaron O'Toole would stay leader of the Conservative Party. The narrative on Zello was that he was already a failure. Basically a vote on whether or not to keep him as the PC leader. This looks like it's coming true. He's been sleeping with the liberals far too long because all he's talking about is vaccines, vaccines, vaccines. You said it right, my man. A lot of people don't see that, but he definitely has been. And as the media discussed the protesters' numbers in Ottawa dwindling,

supporters rarely questioned whether they'd succeed in repealing mandates. Yeah, they got a picture of the parliament building. There might be maybe a couple hundred people there. That's it. But wait till next Saturday with these five to ten more thousand people coming. Police now say they expect the protest to grow this weekend. And more channels have appeared this week, in particular planning a convoy to Ontario's Queen's Park tomorrow. We got Chris Kai. He says he's making an appearance when he's done in Ottawa. He's going to be coming over here with us in our convoy.

And at the moment, we're actually trying to get Doug Ford's daughter to get in on this. So whenever we do the Queen's Park place uh are we actually going to be blocking off roads too like I'd really like to see that. And when we get to Queen's Park we're just going to make sure there's completely no space man we're going to make some noise we're going to do this the right way man no violence let's just take back what's ours man. Yeah I like that idea a lot And for Ottawa, they're already talking about what truckers can do to keep the protest going if police or tow trucks move in. steel and put a little couple tack welds over the hole and just do is just adjust the brakes and just jam the slacks on there's an entirely different vision of canada unfolding in these convoy channels one that if i'm being honest doesn't often align with the reality that we explore on this podcast and a lot of supporters aren't prepared to give up until that vision takes hold.

See, I don't understand how you guys don't listen to what I'm saying. Listen, your freedom is going to be gone. Justin Trudeau literally said the words New World Order, the Great Reset. I appreciate that. But unfortunately, I am not going to give up hope and I'm not going to give up fighting. So I'm sorry if you don't have hope anymore. There are many different types of war. The war we're having right now everywhere around the world is an information war, where it's a battle of misinformation, and we've got to fight to get the truth out there. I think if this doesn't work, what's happening next isn't going to be so peaceful.

I mean, it was a John F. Kennedy quote, basically. If you're against the convoy protests, I imagine that what you have heard today has been pretty frustrating. These supporters are protesting vaccine mandates at a time when large numbers of unvaccinated people are catching COVID and filling up our hospitals. In Canada, the unvaccinated make up less than 13% of the population, but they account for 79% of hospitalizations. And I know that largely white protesters planting their trucks in our capital can really sound like privilege. Black and Indigenous activists have been quick to point out how over-policed our communities are and what might happen if they occupied Parliament Hill. Just look at the Indigenous rail blockades in 2020 in solidarity with the Wet'suwet'en pipeline protests. Dozens of Ontario provincial police officers moved in to end the blockade near Belleville.

A handful of protesters who'd shut down passenger and freight trains were arrested. Those were also protesters standing up against the nation because they thought Canada's actions were unjust and untenable. So I'm not going to tell anyone who's angry that they're wrong here. But I will tell you that when we listen to these convoy channels,

we did hear real fear. I've been in chronic illness groups for years. I've watched people be left sick. I've watched the pharmaceutical companies break people through the cold stone. No, dude, I'm actually deathly afraid of the vax. Like, I will not take it. I'm already too sick. I will not. Also, we heard some real racism and extremism. But there was confusion and disillusionment. There was even this protester who said his

background was in India. When this mandate came, first thing is I lost my job. And after that, even in my own family, they were pushing hard for me to take the job. They were saying that, you know, that my decisions are wrong. You know, all over the world, people took this, and you are the only one like this. And, you know, I was left alone. He also said he had a baby daughter. leave the country i don't want my daughter to take the injection so this convoy made everything you know brought me hope when i went to one mills when i see the people gathered and you know like um

i felt like i'm in india you know i don't know who is next to me, but I felt like they are part of my life in Canada. Like my community, my friends, when I talk to them about this, about all this, you know, they just listen and they look at my eyes like, you know, are you crazy? What is it, man? Come on. I don't know, man. Like this is something, I don't know why people don't understand this. Always keep in mind that, you know, it's always a graceful time when people do wake up around you. So when that time does come, it will.

You know, just always remember to embrace them with open arms because it's not an easy pill to swallow. Regardless of the reason these people found themselves outside the mainstream discourse, some seem to have been pummeled by insults and accusations, hardened by him. And one last thing I'd like to highlight for you before we go is that obviously a lot of these people hate what their lives have become during the pandemic.

And on these channels, they talk about it a lot. Enough of this troll stuff. What are we most excited for when we get our freedoms back? I can't wait to be able to watch my kids play sports again. I just want the freedom for the kids. And I want to be able to go watch my daughter graduate grade eight. I want my son to get the proper health care that he needs. I'm looking forward to not having to have a PhD in COVID policy just to figure out what I can do on

the weekend. I'd love to be able to see my loved ones in the hospital whom are dying so that they don't feel that they're dying alone. We all want to go back to the lives that we had before COVID. The problem is that there are completely different visions on how to get there. All right, that is all for this week. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. All right, that is all for this week. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Ali Janes, Katie Toth, Simi Bassey, and Derek Vanderwyk. Our sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Nooruddin Karane. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McKay-Blocos.

I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.