Front Burner - ‘Russians at War’ director talks critics and backlash

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

The inclusion of ‘Russians at War’ in this year’s Toronto International Film Festival has been met with a firestorm of controversy and backlash, including criticism from the Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.The first person documentary follows Russian Canadian filmmaker, Anastasia Trofimova, as she embeds herself with a group of Russian soldiers fighting on the front lines of the war in Ukraine as they grow increasingly disillusioned with the battle. But after Freeland and other Ukrainian-Canadians spoke out against the film, accusing it of ‘whitewashing’ Russia’s role in the conflict, TVO, one of the films financial backers, announced it would no longer be screening the film. Anastasia Trofimova joins us to talk about the making of the film, the criticism it received and why she thought it was important to give a different perspective on the war in Ukraine.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. On Sunday, the Toronto International Film Festival announced that it would be proceeding with screening a controversial documentary called Russians at War. Late last week, the festival paused screenings of the film, citing threats to public safety.

That announcement came right after the public broadcaster TV Ontario said it would not air the project that it helped to fund. Both announcements followed a furious pressure campaign against Russians at war. Groups of Ukrainian Canadians protested outside Toronto's Scotiabank Theatre. Stop this movie! Stop this movie! Stop this movie! Ukrainian diplomats here spoke out against it, calling it Russian propaganda. The Deputy Prime Minister, Krzysztof Freeland, condemned the film and said that it whitewashes Russian war crimes. It's not right for Canadian public money to be supporting the screening and production of a film like this. One Liberal MP, Yvonne Baker, celebrated TIFF's screening pause, which again was triggered by threats of violence, tweeting,

We did it! Exclamation point. Many people here who have seen the film couldn't be more clear in their disagreement. the film couldn't be more clear in their disagreement. For example, columnists at the Toronto Star, National Post, and Globe and Mail have all written that they do not think that this film is Russian propaganda, but instead that it offers a perspective that is rarely seen. The war through Russian soldiers' eyes as they retrieve and bury their dead, hide in bunkers, and become increasingly ground down and disillusioned with their fight. Anastasia Trifomova, the Russian filmmaker behind this documentary, is with me today. Anastasia, hi, thank you so much for coming on to FrontBurner.

Thank you for having me. So we're going to get into some of the controversy surrounding your film shortly, but I'd first like to set the table a little bit. So Russians at War is essentially a first-person documentary delivered from your perspective as you embed with a unit of the Russian army for a period of months as they make their journey to the front line. And just walk me through the basic outline of the story here. Well, I guess the story started when the war began. And I had this burning question in my mind, who were the people who were fighting this war?

Because sort of, I would never expect this war to happen. And my world shattered when this began. And I guess I was searching for answers to try to figure out the portraits of people, ordinary people who were there. Everything that I was reading in the media sort of simplified it to very black and white descriptions of people. So in the Russian media, they were these faceless heroes who don't bleed. In the Western media, they were these war criminals. these faceless heroes who don't bleed. In the Western media, there were these war criminals.

And I just could not understand how, all of a sudden, these people who were my compatriots, who I didn't know personally, but we all sort of grew up with the same values, all of a sudden were there in this war. And I was searching for answers. Unsuccessfully, through the first part of the first year of the war, until on New Year's Eve, I met a soldier dressed in a Santa Claus uniform, who was on leave because he was wounded, and he had four days to go see his family for New Year's. And he was on his way to his family, and that's when we met. So that's how the story started. I managed to film him going back to the front. And then after a while,

I managed to follow him there. What version of Russian military life do you think that viewers are left with at the end of this film? I think it's going to break a lot of stereotypes. I mean, perhaps my vision now is a little bit clouded because I have seen it. But if I were to go back to my thinking before I met Ilya and went to the front, I would assume that people there were motivated to fight, to have some sort of hatred for their enemy, which is what you would expect in a war zone. And all the previous war zones I filmed in, that's what I felt. So to me, this was a very strange war.

It did not feel like a war because everywhere I filmed, for example, with the Kurdish units who were fighting against ISIS or with the Iraqi units who were cleaning up Mosul, cleaning up was a military term for looking for sleeper cells, terrorist sleeper cells. There was real hatred and you could feel it, and there was real motivation. In this, I didn't find that.

I found that a lot of people were finding, sort of looking for answers for why they were there, and each person had something different. Give me some of the reasons that they told you for why they were there and fighting. For some, it was out of a sense of patriotism. So they might not understand the politics behind why their country or their state send them there. But if their country send them there, then I guess it must be right.

Once you start to talk to them about various reasons, how do you explain yourself, you understand that there's not much of a understanding, I guess, right? It's a lot of repetition of what they see in the media. And then when what they see in the media turns out to be not what they see in real life, they start to question it themselves and they don't have answers. But at the same time, they still stay and soldier on. And that's something that you see in a lot of war zones. You know, if you remember the American troops who were sent to Iraq

and they were asked, what do you know about this country? I don't know. I'm here just because I need to pay for school, right? And this is sort of the unfortunate part of governments that have whatever geopolitical issues they have with each other, sending regular people who might not even understand it. I mean, other reasons than that, people believed that they were helping the Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainian population of Donbass. People believed that they were fighting against the western expansion of NATO.

From a Russian perspective, this is something that's often very misunderstood and I guess not really common to hear in the West. For Russia, NATO is a pretty scary thing. It is the world's biggest military alliance. It is expanding closer and closer to Russian borders. So for a lot of people, even in my grandmother's generation, in my mother's generation, NATO was always this constant big looming, maybe not an active threat, but at least somewhere there, right? So a lot of people sort of explain it this way to themselves, and some don't know. It's interesting listening to you,

you talked about like a lack of hatred for the quote-unquote enemy. Did you feel that the Russian soldiers had empathy or sympathy for the Ukrainian populations because I've seen the movie that was not clear to me. I actually did meet a lot of sympathy despite the fact that they were supposed to be enemies and this was a very strange place to be in because one of the soldiers and we have this footage we never really included it because he didn't have a narrative arc but one of the soldiers, and we have this footage, we never really included it because he didn't have a narrative arc. But one of the soldiers was saying that, you know, I'm being forced to go over there and to shoot there. And I think to myself, the guy over there, he might be just drafted like I was.

He might not want to be here. He has a family waiting back home. My son is four years old. Maybe he has a son that's four years old. Why am I shooting at him? But at the same time, he said, this is what the war does to me. You know, if I was a regular civilian in my regular life and somebody would come and say, here are the keys to a tank. You're going to get into that tank and you're going to shoot at that hill and perhaps kill someone there because you just should. He said that not only would I tell that person to go far and get lost, but I would sit there for hours just thinking how is that even possible

for a person to imagine such a thing. And now I just take the keys and I go. I want to get into some of the criticisms that your film has been subjected to specifically. So the first one, you deliver this perspective that we have not seen very much of at all. The access that you get is quite extraordinary. You're in rooms and in trenches that even Russian state TV is not traditionally permitted. I'm going, I'm going. And I know that you have said that making this documentary involved zero collaboration with the russian government but people are wondering how this young female filmmaker managed to get onto

the front lines of one of the defining conflicts of our time on occupied land alongside a very sophisticated international military without any support or permission from the Russian government. So how did it happen? Sure. It's a completely valid question, especially for people that don't know me and my previous work. And in my previous work, it was sort of a point of pride for me to get into places that no one else could. So people have an assumption that the war zone is a very organized and tightly controlled place. But if you speak with filmmakers and journalists that worked in war zones, you often find that a lot of it is based on human factor. And if you can make an impression on people and if people trust you.

So if people trust you and they open up to you, sometimes they're willing to sort of look the other way or maybe bend the rules. When I took a train to the border and then took a cab to the rear, I was completely sure that I will be arrested, put in a basement and interrogated. And if it's a good outcome, I'll be sent back. I had no idea I would have this permission. And I never really got permission. It was more like, go away, I'll deal with you later. You're weird. Why? From the top commander. Why would you ever want to be here? Why do you want to be here? You're some girl from Moscow. Why don't you go to a cafe, buy yourself a dress, like do something like, you know, have a good life, civilian life,

why do you want to be here? And I said, look, this is the biggest event that's happening in our country's modern day history. You guys are its main actors. I would like to make this film if you're okay with it. It's like, go away. You're weird. I'll deal with you later. And when I went to the front and I actually got an explicit no from the commander who said that most likely you'll be killed. You'll come back to haunt me as a ghost, a woman should sit at home, get out of my sight and that's final. The soldiers who were there they basically said look this is you're weird but this is really important to you, you can get in the back of the truck when the column moves and we'll just cover you up with

bulletproof vests and once you get to the front it's more chaotic there. You can try your luck. So I did. The commander found me very quickly. He swore at me. Basically said, God damn, you made it, huh? Did you? And sort of he turned a blind eye. Russian state television is not allowed to get anywhere near as close as where I got.

Especially not to stick around for seven months. I definitely understand. Yeah, I definitely understand that it is not something that one would expect. Right. And you can see how people are skeptical. Absolutely. Yeah. And so I'm happy to answer any kind of questions.

You're not only embedded in the film alongside Russian soldiers, but you're also in Russian military uniform. Are there any concerns or were there any fears for you that that image of you in fatigues, right, would compromise your ability to be seen as objective, as an objective arbiter here? Yeah, I totally understand the question. And that's actually the reason why I decided to put that scene into the film. Like, I wanted to show people and be completely transparent how that was done. So what happened was when the commander said, get out of my sight, I don't have

time to deal with you. I went back to the supply unit and they said, take a uniform. I said, why? I bought this long coat and I have these shoes and they're like, you know, gray. They said, look, if you don't want ours to shoot you by accident, put this on. Plus, when the headquarters comes around for a check, if they see a civilian among us, you're done for. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. We have heard from the Ukrainian community at large and also from Canadian politicians. And let's first start with Canada's Deputy Prime Minister, Krista Freeland, who is an ethnic Ukrainian.

She said that your film attempts to whitewash Russia's crimes in Ukraine. And what do you make of that description and of the Deputy Prime Minister's remarks? That's a fantastic question, because I am still waiting for an answer from her to expand on that. She has never reached out to us to ask for a screener. She has never reached out to us to ask for a comment. And that is very worrisome because the effects of someone who's of that high of a status and has that authority, they can be pretty big, as we saw. effort in which more than $400,000 of public money was used to help fund the documentary also announced that they were no longer supporting the film and would not be airing it in the coming months as initially planned. A Canadian journalist for Free Expression said that it was concerned with TVO's decision, saying it raises questions about its editorial independence. And I just want to note here also that I am a member of the board of this organization, though I had no role in drafting this statement. Before the decision,

you had been speaking with TVO for some time. And just tell me a little bit about what those conversations were like. Were they asking you questions about the integrity of your film? What was that process like? The main person who was speaking with TVO is our producer, who's fantastic, Cornelia Principe. She's an Oscar-nominated producer who's been working with TVO on, I think, six or seven films previously. So I was in Russia at the time, so I didn't really have a chance to be online always to participate in those conversations. But we were speaking with the commissioning editors and, you know, the management of TVO. And we've always had very productive conversations about how this

film was going, how it was developing. So the conversations that we've been having were great because the commissioning editors of TVO, they of course saw the final product and, you know, they approved it. We had a little bit of a back and forth, but at the end it was fantastic. So that's why the decision of the board was shocking to our entire team. It sort of came out of nowhere. That was really worrisome for me because I saw parallels to places where there was not such a freedom of speech today and saw like how that could start here in Canada. Related to that um I just briefly want to talk about the Toronto International Film Festival so initially TIFF came out they refused to pull your film they supported your film and

then the premiere was paused following the film festival receiving what they called quote significant threats to festival operations and public safety and you and I are talking just after noon on Sunday and apparently now TIFF is just has decided that they are going to air the film this coming Tuesday, I believe. And what's been your reaction to that kind of, well, I'm sure it must have felt like a bit of a rollercoaster to you. This entire, well, the entire last week was a crazy rollercoaster because in Venice, the welcome that we got and the feedback that we got after the film was screened was incredible.

We had a five-minute standing ovation from the audience. I had people coming up to me in tears and sharing their stories and expressing how grateful they were to see a side of a story that they have not seen in this war and to see something different. TIFF is incredible. I always respected this festival, but after seeing how dedicated they are to freedom of expression and to showing something that they've selected

based on merit and not political pressure, they have really wowed me because they stood by our team and the film throughout this entire time. And from what I just said, they could maybe give the details about the harassment they received, but from what I've heard, it's unbelievable. It's threats that were made to staff and premises.

It's really not right and should not be happening. But yeah, I mean, we're really happy that TIFF is able to give us these two screenings on Tuesday. And I really, really hope that people would come and see it and make up their own minds. Well, I feel like you and I have the benefit of having this conversation right now because we have both seen it. But I do want to talk to you about some examples, which might be emblematic of some of the criticisms that we have heard. I think these are good faith criticisms. So let me start with this one. There's a few moments in your film.

There's a Russian soldier who says that they are fighting because they thought Ukraine would invade Russia. Another who refers to the dynamic between Ukraine and Russia as a civil war, another that talks about fighting the Nazis in Ukraine. These are inversions of reality, right? It's been well documented that this is a war of aggression where Russia invaded Ukraine. And I'm not saying that you needed to argue with these men in the moment, right? Like you're making this first person documentary,

but why not choose to provide more context in the film through narration, for example, or text? It's a great question. And absolutely, yeah, I'm happy you asked it. Because I believe that the conversations that we have with people, at least for this style of documentary, is to show the motivations of people and what they're thinking. This is not to argue with them and say, I know better, because I'm personally not a fan of filmmakers that go and use the conversations they have with people who allow them to document their lives in order to promote their worldview. We're there to listen as documentary filmmakers. We're not there to judge.

I take that point, but then why not come in later with some narration and clarify that Ukraine is not filled with Nazis, for example, Vladimir Zelensky is Jewish. Well, it's a great point about the soldier that you're talking about is Khartoum. So that was the interesting thing. Cartoon was that character who in the beginning was talking about that he's coming to fight Nazism, right? 10 months later, I asked him the same question. And at that point, he wasn't really sure what he was fighting for. And that progression of this young guy who's 20 years old, right? That progression was the important thing to

document. You want to understand where these people are coming from, what their grievances are, what their beliefs are, and you want to show that. There's another point where a young soldier tells you that he doesn't think Russians are capable of war crimes, of raping or killing civilians. We know that Human Rights Watch has documented cases of rape and summary executions of civilians in Chernihiv, Kiev, Kharkiv in the months following the beginning of the war in 2022. And in March of this year, the UN put out a report detailing torture of Ukrainian prisoners of war in Russian captivity.

And so why not come in at some point, even with cards, right? Like even with text and kind of try and clarify that for people watching. Because once you start trying to make this an analytical documentary that is going to provide you with stories that you have not documented yourself,

then this becomes something else. There are a lot of things that you have to documented yourself, then this becomes something else. There are a lot of things that you have to explain, and that's reserved for documentaries that are analytical, right? And there are plenty of those, and some of them are fantastic. Now, when it comes to that young soldier, that's also cartooned, the 20-year-old man. And for me, it was interesting to get his reaction. And the reason I asked this question is because, of course, I've read about all the instances of war crimes that are currently being still investigated by the International Criminal Court. I've asked him about that to sort of see if he's even heard about that. And his reaction, that he was so shocked, and he felt like he couldn't believe it, because

people were not aware there of what is being written, for example, in Western press. Let me ask you about just one more critique of you personally and your history. So you're Russian and Canadian. Your life has been split between both countries. I know that you were educated at the University of Toronto, for example. You've also worked as a journalist with the CBC as a news producer in Russia, right? But a lot of people have brought up the fact

that you have also previously worked for Russia Today, the country's state media arm. And what do you say to those who feel your history working for country's state media arm. And what do you say to those who feel your history working for Russia's state media inherently spoils like any work that you may do in the region? Well, I don't think that's a fair criticism, because I think, first of all, if anyone would like to see the kind of work that I did, it's all available for free on my website. So it's not just hearsay. I'm not going to attempt to convince people.

Just go and see it. And if you find any elements of propaganda or anything like that, let me know. Because so far, nobody's been able to. So I was working not for RT. I was working for RT Documentary, which is the documentary sister channel of RT. And I was the Middle Eastern documentary director

slash cinematographer. So my focus for most of the time that I was there was on ISIS, actually, because at that point, they were at their peak and they were sort of my personal fascination. So I would welcome anyone to watch my work. I'm thinking, too, about the men and the women in your film. I know that you took care not to use any full names and you've obscured like exact geographic markers but ultimately their faces are unobstructed

on camera many of them are critiquing uh in some way the russian government right um in ways that i think could land them in prison. And they don't have the ability like you to seek refuge in a place like Canada, right? So are you worried about their safety? Their safety was my number one concern, more than anything else about this film. More than my safety, more than the way this film is going to be perceived, more than any kind of criticism. So filming i was always speaking to them about their safety to the point that they told me to shut up that they're not going to send me further than the front and i'm already here just film uh obviously that was enough so i had permissions of course from everybody that wasn't enough so i went and i showed this film to three lawyers in Russia dealing with the new

Russian law that was adopted after the war began and censorship and treason cases. All three of the lawyers who don't know each other, they said that the way you show people, you show personal stories. They don't not have, they're not running around with slogans against the government. They don't have anything like that. It's personal stories. So they believe that the people, the soldiers portrayed will be fine. The main question is about my own kind of safety and the reaction, which we don't know what it's going to be. Right, right. You don't know if you're you'll be able to go back or no no i don't know but i think yeah i think by this point the the news about the cancellation and the protest of course has reached uh russia i even have a suspicion they

might be enjoying it enjoying it in the sense like to kind of like shocked to see that this is happening and the reaction especially. So I'm not really sure what the reaction will be, but it's such a fast moving situation that we're just going to take it in stride and see what happens. Just one final question for you before we go. happens just one final question for you before we go are the men and women depicted in your film the soldiers the medics on the front line do you think that they're victims i think in a sense they're victims of this big geopolitical situation which is the war and so are the ukrainians And it is very unfortunate that what is happening now is happening. And you have people who just want to go home and just want for

this war to be over. And that's what I hope for as well. And maybe, just maybe, this film could be the starting point for some sort of dialogue, a heated dialogue perhaps. But we need a dialogue instead of just one-upping each other and escalating this war to God knows what. Okay. Anastasia, I really want to thank you for coming by. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. All right. So before we go today, I just want to note that after this conversation, we did hear back from Deputy Prime Minister Christopher Freeland's office.

A spokesperson confirmed that Minister Freeland has seen the film. The spokesperson reiterated that the government's position on the film was not about whether it should have been made or whether people should watch it, but that Canadian public money should not be used to support the film that, quote, features scenes of Russian soldiers rejecting and downplaying the presence of war crimes, events that the international courts have recognized as war crimes, and linking Ukraine to Nazism. All right, that is all for today. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.