Front Burner - Salman Rushdie's journey across the U.S.

Episode Date: October 9, 2019

The last time Salman Rushdie won the Booker Prize, it was 1981. It's been 24 years since his last nomination. After his new book, Quichotte, came out, he was pleasantly surprised to find himself back ...on the list of nominees. "It's like, finally!" says Rushdie. "They remembered I was around." The new book is a retelling of Don Quixote, with an Indian-American salesman travelling across the United States on a quest. His journey touches on issues like the opioid crisis, our addiction to reality TV, and the end of the world. Rushdie joins Jayme Poisson to give his unique perspective on these hectic times.

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Salman Rushdie's new book is about, well, a lot of things. It's a retelling of Don Quixote. It's about an opioid salesman in love with a talk show host.
Starting point is 00:00:43 It's about spycraft and race and the end of the world. All of these things are totally logical territory for Salman Rushdie. His books always feel timeless, but also engaged with what's going on right now. We're going to talk about his new book, Keyshot, which is up for a Booker Prize, and how he's feeling about the world at this very volatile time. This is FrontBurner. Salman Rushdie, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. And a big congratulations on being nominated for the Booker. I mean, I have to say it was really exciting because the last time I was on the Booker shortlist was 24 years ago. Oh, wow.
Starting point is 00:01:26 Well, a big congratulations. So it feels like, you know, finally they remembered I'm around. It's like many Oscar snubs later. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly right. So your new book, which has been nominated for a Booker 24 years later, is inspired by the classic Don Quixote. And it's about a salesman named Ismael Smile who goes on a delusional quest.
Starting point is 00:01:47 And what made you want to put your spin on that story? Well, you know, it really started off as something quite different. It started off as a, I thought I might write a nonfiction book in which I would rent a car and drive across America and see what happened. A Chevy in the book. A Chevy Cruze in the book, yes. A car so old that it's now being discontinued, which is a bit like Kishat himself. He's so old that he's about to be discontinued.
Starting point is 00:02:15 But I thought initially, I thought maybe I'll do it. Maybe I'll go and see what I can see. You know, because what had happened is my previous novel had been written almost, set almost entirely in New York City. And I remember at the end of it thinking, OK, now you have to leave town. Now you have to get out and see what's happening in the rest of the country. So that was the original thought. And then by a kind of coincidence, I was asked to write something about Don Quixote.
Starting point is 00:02:42 And I hadn't read the book really since I was at college. So I thought I better look at it again. And what had happened in the meanwhile, since I'd been at college, is there's now a much better translation. Makes the book feel like it was written yesterday. And I read it and I was much more excited than I remember having been when I was a kid. And almost immediately, my variation of the two main characters popped into my head because my Quichotte is not really like Don Quixote except in one or two regards. And my Sancho is not really like Sancho Panza. But the moment I had them, I thought, oh, this is better than my doing the journey. I'd much rather send them on the journey.
Starting point is 00:03:24 Why is it better than you doing the journey? I guess because I'm a fiction writer. Because you can imagine it. You can imagine it and you can make happen what you want to happen rather than being at the mercy of what might or might not happen. Right. Anyway, so I just thought I'm going to send them on the journey. In fact, I had at one point talked to my younger son who was then 18 or so, 19, he's now 22,
Starting point is 00:03:44 and said, did he want to go with me? And he said, yes, he would be up for the road trip. And then rather kind of rudely, I thought, he said, but dad, are you going to drive? Are you not a good driver? I'm an excellent driver. I said to him, A, I'm an excellent driver. B, I've been driving since before you were born. What are you talking about? And he said, no, no, no, I'm an excellent driver. B, I've been driving since before you were born. What are you talking about? And he said, no, no, no, I think I should drive. Anyway, so I fired him and wrote the book as a novel. Good.
Starting point is 00:04:14 That sounds like a good plan. I want to talk to you about some of the themes that your book deals with, the first being the opioid crisis. The main character is a pharmaceutical salesman, and his work contributes in this small way to the opioid crisis. And why did you want to engage with that in your book? Well, I felt, I mean, it's now burst into the news a little bit. You've heard the headlines. The opioid crisis has been growing at a terrifying rate in North America. Last year in Canada, there were nearly 4,000 apparent opioid-related deaths,
Starting point is 00:04:45 and Canadians are desperate for answers. But for a long time, when I was thinking about and writing the book, it felt like this kind of invisible epidemic. You know, there are tens of thousands of people a year dying, and yet it was barely discussed. I have such a hard time wrapping my head around this. You know, we're talking about 50,000 deaths in the U.S. last year, 3,000 here in Canada.
Starting point is 00:05:05 It's something that we in the media don't cover very often. You know, like one person dies of Ebola and it's all over the media for months, you know, 50,000 a year and nobody notices. Partly it's because the worst hit areas of the opioid crisis are not in the big cities where the media are. They're in small towns dotted around the continent. It's not in New York. Not in New York. Not in L.A. Not in Chicago.
Starting point is 00:05:34 Tiny little townships in like Virginia, you know, where it's where a lot of people are suffering from the addiction. Welcome to Montgomery County, Ohio, where thanks to a drug so powerful it could kill you if you touch it, police work isn't what it used to be. Why is a sheriff's deputy that's supposed to be fighting crime driving around with a heroin antidote? We don't have enough EMS units for the overdoses. Partly because the book is a journey across America, and I thought if I'm sending these two, my Kishat and his Sancho through middle America, it's going to be everywhere they go. Right. Unavoidable. Yeah. And so to leave it out would be chickening out of something. You know, so I mean, I had a personal reason, which is that one of my sisters was addicted
Starting point is 00:06:21 and had a heart attack when she was, I mean, she was only 45. And so at that point, I became, you can understand, very interested in finding out as much as I could about this. So I've been digging into, you know, the Sacklers and their like for quite a long time. Purdue Pharma is the maker of the highly addictive opioid OxyContin. The family that owns the company, the Sacklers, have been embroiled in lawsuits and multi-million dollar settlements to keep the company's role in the opioid crisis out of the public eye. And eventually found the story that I felt would allow me to talk about that. Right. Since this is a topic that you've dug into and thought about so much, do you think there is a solution to the opioid crisis, like a political solution?
Starting point is 00:07:07 There's two things I think that can be done and one that is harder to cure. One is what's happening, which is these enormous fines being levied on Johnson & Johnson and on Purdue. These massive amounts of lawsuits that we're seeing. Massive, yeah. I mean, fine. That's good. Massive, yeah. I mean, fine, that's good.
Starting point is 00:07:33 The second thing is, because the thing that worried me was how relatively easy it had been for unscrupulous people to gain the help of doctors. You know, so there were doctors across the country having sort of kickbacks. I mean, serious money, but not huge money. I mean, $30,000, $40,000, you know, not the kind of money that lets you buy a house in the south of France. It's not life-changing money. But for this relatively small amount of money, they were willing to sacrifice their integrity. And I thought, there's something there that's a real problem. But beyond that, there's why do people need these things? And I felt, well, one of the themes of the novel in general, many of the characters in the novel are lonely, isolated.
Starting point is 00:08:12 In this moment when, in theory, we have a zillion ways to connect with each other, to befriend each other. And that actually, in many cases, people are more isolated than ever and lonelier than ever and maybe turn to these dangerous things as a kind of solace. Right. I just want to go back to the doctors for a moment. When you say that you think there might be something wrong there, like what is it that you think is happening? Well, I mean, there's a sort of moral failure, you know, and that's to say the way in which it happens in the novel is the thing that really happened, which is a particular doctor set up a dummy speaker's bureau. And he would offer doctors $30,000, $40,000 to come and speak at the speaker's bureau, except the speaker's bureau didn't exist and its meetings never happened. So they just got the $30,000 or $40,000. But it looked legit.
Starting point is 00:09:03 And then they would oversubscribe opioids. Yeah. And then they would do this thing with what is called prescribing off-label, which is let's say prescribing these dangerous things to people for whom it's not intended. Because for example, fentanyl, it has a medical purpose. It's very beneficial, for example, in the treatment of terminal cancer patients, just to bring them some relief from pain. But it's not supposed to be used recreationally. And recreationally, that's what killed Prince. And now we know the drug also played a role in the death of a pop icon with a reputation for clean living.
Starting point is 00:09:41 How do you stop people from doing that? How do you stop doctors who have taken an oath from doing that? You've asked the wrong person. I mean, you know, if we knew how to prevent people from becoming drug addicts, you know, the world would be a different place. I want to talk to you about the scope of your book, which is quite broad, right? You take on so many different subjects. And, you know, I know this has been one criticism of your book, right?
Starting point is 00:10:24 That it deals with reality TV, race in America, surveillance. Some people have said it's too much to take on in one book. I'm in favor of too much. And why is that? Because I know other people have said, no, like, you have to take this on together. Well, it's a temperamental thing. There are writers who prefer to find one beautiful storyline, you know, and just tell that. That can be wonderful. And there are other writers of whom I guess I'm one who have a sort of encyclopedic tendency that they want to just scoop up as much of the world as they possibly can and try and put it in a book. Right.
Starting point is 00:11:01 And a lot of the writers I most admire are of that kind. I mean, I think Charles Dickens is a writer of that kind. You know, the Saul Bellow who wrote The Adventures of Augie Marsh, you know,
Starting point is 00:11:10 is a writer of that kind. I always admired Dickens, for example, how much of a society he was able to portray in his books. You know, that he could write about
Starting point is 00:11:19 pickpockets and archbishops, you know, and sort of everything in between. And I thought there's something wonderful about that to try and be very capacious and to try and say, I'm not just talking about one corner of my society. I'm trying to talk about the whole thing. And what do you think that gives your readers? What does that offer people?
Starting point is 00:11:40 Well, I hope it gives them pleasure, you know, because I think one pleasure is just recognition pleasure, the pleasure of reading a book and saying, yeah, this is how it is. I see it. Yes, this is how this is. This is how that is. People like, I think, a book that tries to be a world. You know, you try and say, I'm making a world for you. This is why so many people like fantasy. This is why people like The Lord of the Rings. Right, Harry Potter. Because he creates a world for you, or she does in the case of the Rings. Right, Harry Potter. Because he creates a world for you. Or she does in the case of Harry Potter. Yeah. Whether it's
Starting point is 00:12:08 fantasy or reality, it doesn't matter. For me, the art of the novel is the art of creating that world that the reader likes to be in, wants to be in it, you know, enjoys it, and then maybe can be challenged, can be made to think, can be made to laugh, made to cry. All kinds of things can happen to you. I mean, you know, you, the reader, you are Alice in Wonderland.
Starting point is 00:12:31 For me, the job is to create Wonderland so that you can be Alice in it. It's interesting to me. Of course, you deal with these very real issues like the opioid epidemic, but there are also these very fantastical parts of your novel, right? There are mastodons. People turning into mastodons. Why these fantastical elements? Well, because they tell you things. For example, the mastodons.
Starting point is 00:12:50 When I was in college, I was cast in a production of the great absurdist play by Ionesco called Rhinoceros, which is set in a small town in France in which people are mysteriously turning into rhinoceroses. And I remember as a young person, 19 or something, I didn't understand the play. I was saying to the producer, you know, what's this about? And he said, someone, it's about fascism. And I said, oh. He said, it's about how the people you're living next door to,
Starting point is 00:13:21 the people who are your neighbors, the people whose children were playing with your children yesterday, can suddenly turn into monsters. They can suddenly become so strange to you that they feel almost frightening and alien and you can't talk to them anymore. It's about that. Because the thing about the Ionesco thing is that even though it is about that very serious matter, it's a farce. So the play is hilariously funny.
Starting point is 00:13:46 But underneath it, there's something very serious matter. It's a farce. So the play is hilariously funny. But underneath it, there's something very serious. And I thought maybe, I found myself thinking, maybe we're kind of there again. Maybe we are living in this world in which we are so alienated from our neighbors that they can seem monstrous to us. And so again, my idea was to do something farcical, to dramatize something that's actually very serious. Talking about this idea that the world just seems so nuts right now, that you have to dream up mastodons to try and make a point. You hear a lot of people talking about how the world feels like it's on fire, that America particularly is in this unprecedented moment. And do you feel like that's true? Do you feel like you've never seen anything like this before?
Starting point is 00:14:31 I mean, you know, World War II was probably worse than this. The Holocaust was certainly worse than this. In my lifetime, this is as bad as I've ever seen it. You know, and I'm 72. And I think it is America, but it's not only America I think you know one of the reasons why the book has a moment in England and a moment in India is because I feel
Starting point is 00:14:52 that these phenomena are there as well you know that everywhere has its own madness you know England has Brexit America has Trump India has Modi so they're not exactly the same but there are echoes you know and I wanted to say that this is not only happening in America India has Modi. comes to the fore is the possible end of the world, which you could understand in three ways.
Starting point is 00:15:26 You could either understand it as the characters worrying about their own deaths, the end of the world in that way, or as a metaphor of the breakdown of the kind of society that we've all lived in for all our lives, or maybe literally the end of the world. I mean, that's what... With climate change. Yeah. That's what young Greta Thunberg has been drawing our attention to. That actually, if we don't do something, it really could be the end of the world.
Starting point is 00:15:52 I shouldn't be up here. I should be back in school on the other side of the ocean. Yet you all come to us young people for hope. How dare you? Does this feel different to you? Because, you know, it strikes me that people have been talking about the end of the world for a long time, right? Like the book of Revelations had all sorts of ways that the world was going to end. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:16:16 No, no. I mean, that's the problem of talking about the end of the world is a lot of people have cried wolf. Yes. And the world is still here. Are we really in that dire moment? I think we might be. I don't believe in inevitability. I don't think that there's anything inevitable about it. And I think that's what young Greta is saying to us. She's saying we can do something about this,
Starting point is 00:16:40 but we need to do something about it. It gives me pause a little bit to hear you, Salman Rushdie, one of the most preeminent authors of our time, say that he's worried about the end of the world, I have to say. I know. Well, I mean, I wish I wasn't. I would prefer not to be. I mean, I'm the kind of writer who would like to leave behind books that will be read in the future, like when I'm not around anymore. I would like to write books that endure. But that means having to be optimistic about there being a future in which they can be read. So it's much more to my inclination to believe that the world will go on. I remember
Starting point is 00:17:12 when I was very young, there was an anonymous letter writer from middle America somewhere who used to write identical letters in red ballpoint pen on lined paper, and he would write them to a number of writers. And the letters would always say, will civilization as we know it survive into the 21st century? Thank you for answering my question. And we all thought, oh, he's some kind of autograph collector. But one writer, my friend Angela Carter, said maybe he wants an answer. And so she wrote back to him and said, yes, don't worry.
Starting point is 00:17:46 Civilization as you know it will survive unchanged. Everything will be fine. Don't worry. And he never wrote to any him and said, yes, don't worry. Civilization, as you know it, will survive unchanged. Everything will be fine. Don't worry. And he never wrote to any of us again. Maybe he was just ahead of his time. He just needed an answer. He needed to be reassured. And for some reason, he thought the novelists had the answer.
Starting point is 00:18:02 Speaking of Greta Thunberg, do you see hope, though? Do you see sparks of hope? I see hope. Greta Thunberg. Do you see hope, though? Do you see sparks of hope? Yes, I see hope. I have to say, I really like not just her, but this younger generation that's growing up everywhere in all these countries, India as well, you know, very engaged, much more activist, much more determined. And I mean, I've been saying to people if we can just manage to not destroy the world before everybody grows up. We'll just hold on.
Starting point is 00:18:32 Yeah, just got to keep it going until these kids grow up and then maybe they'll do a better job than we did. Well, maybe my generation should just hold it steady for Greta Thunberg's generation. I think that's a good, let's just work on that. If the millennials can do anything, this is what they should do. Yes, you can just keep it going. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:18:47 Salman Rushdie, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. The Booker Prize will be announced on Monday, October 14th. Also nominated is Margaret Atwood for her book, The Testaments, a sequel to The Handmaid's Tale. We did a whole episode about the enduring narrative that story presents and why so many people are drawn to it in this political moment as well. You can find that episode in our feed.
Starting point is 00:19:20 That's all for today, though. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and see you all tomorrow.

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