Front Burner - Saudi Arabia’s LIV Golf controversy

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

Golf's new breakaway tour, LIV Golf, is throwing the world of golf into chaos. LIV held its first tournament this week and is gunning to eclipse the PGA — golf's premier association and gatekeeper for almost a century. LIV's mantra is "golf but louder." The organization is flashy, more visible on social media, and is promising to be a new way for players and fans to experience the traditionally stuffy sport. The tournament has lured in some big names, including Phil Mickleson, Sergio Garcia and Dustin Johnson, with the promise of way more prize money. But it's also drawing a lot of controversy because it's financed by Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund. Today on Front Burner, we're talking to The Athletic's Brendan Quinn about LIV Golf and what it means for golf and the PGA.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Allie Janes, in for Jamie Poisson. So there's a great divide happening in the world of golf right now. On the one side, you've got the old guard, the PGA, golf's premier association and gatekeeper for almost a century.

They were in Toronto this past weekend for Canada's most prestigious tournament, the Canadian Open. Oh yeah, Rory McIlroy defends his title at the RBC Canadian Open. After he won, Rory McIlroy took a shot at the guy leading the other side of this great divide, golf legend Greg Norman. Yeah, this is a day I'll remember for a long, long time. 21st PGA Tour win, won more than someone else. Norman is now the CEO of a breakaway rival league, Live Golf. They were also holding a tournament this weekend, their first ever. Within the hour, the Saudi-backed league Live Golf released its field for the first event scheduled next week at the Centurion Club just outside of London. ever. Within the hour, the Saudi-backed league Live Golf released its field for the first event scheduled next week at the Centurion Club just outside of London. And it featured some pretty

big names in the sport. Phil Mickelson, Sergio Garcia, Dustin Johnson, all lured away from the PGA by the promise of way more money. Dustin Johnson and Phil Mickelson are the biggest stars to sign up up and the pair are earning more from this than their entire prize money from a combined 45 years on the PGA Tour. This is something that I thought was best for me and my family and you know I'm very excited about playing. So what's Live Golf all about? Well their mantra is, but louder. It's flashy, it's hungry, and it wants to be the new way for players and fans to experience golf. But here's the thing. Live Golf is financed by Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund. That fund is controlled by the Saudi crown prince,

Mohammed bin Salman. And given Saudi Arabia's human rights record, that's drawing a lot of criticism. Any decision that you make in your life that's purely for money usually doesn't end up going the right way. The PGA Tour announcing sanctions against players competing overseas in London this morning. Today on FrontBurner, we're talking to the athletics' Brendan Quinn about Live Golf. What it's all about, what it means for the sport, and whether it can eclipse the PGA. Hi, Brendan. Hello, thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for being here. So the Live Golf Tour is branding itself as an alternative to the PGA Tour, and it says it wants to essentially revolutionize the game of golf. So what's the pitch exactly? Like, what is it doing differently? Well, I think you start on this with format of the game. So traditional golf tournaments all look essentially the same. Four rounds, 18 holes per day. After the first two rounds, half the field gets cut.

So you have to make it through the fourth round to get any payment whatsoever. But after the cut, you play your Saturday and your Sunday rounds, and you crown a champion on Sunday. So that's how we understand golf, professional golf. And what live has done is it has come along and it is hosting 54 whole tournaments. So it's, it's three, three rounds, no cuts, only 48 players, whereas a traditional PGA event may have one 50 ish. And, uh, they are playing what's called a shotgun start,

whereas in a regular event, guys go out one group after another. In Liv's instance, they put a group at each hole on the course, all 18 holes, and they all start at once. So everyone's on the course at once. All the action is occurring at once, as opposed to kind of the more staggered system of a traditional tournament that we're used to. And then there's also some team elements where all these guys are somehow they're playing for themselves, but they're also technically on teams that are drafted. And it's really just a

way to just give out more money and give a different kind of scoreboard and just be anything alternative to the PGA tour. Like that's it in a very nerdy golf version of how it's different. But what's really different is the money. Charles Schwartzel, who is a kind of career journeyman, won the Masters one year. Charles Schwartzel takes the Masters 2011. But otherwise is, you know, just kind of a guy who people know his name, and that's very much it.

He's ranked 125th in the world. He won this week and he won four point eight million dollars for three days of work. Four million dollars for Charles Schwartzel, who has been magnificent. Whereas Rory McIlroy won the Canadian Open at far more prestigious event. And he made south of $2 million. Well south. Right. So that's the difference.

You know, we can talk about scoreboards or how these things look different. That's what is different. Okay. And, yeah, I mean, I want to get in a little more to the money in a moment. I mean, before that, just talking about, like, you know, the way that this looks like you were saying, you know, I understand they have, you know, some pretty wild names, like the team names, the logos, which feel like so incredibly not golf ish. Can you tell me about that a little bit about some of the names? Yeah, they've clearly tried to, I think,

They've clearly tried to, I think, A, I think a lot of this was done on the fly. And it really has the airs of if Goff was married with arena football and you just kind of throw together these ridiculous team names with these kind of clip art style logos. You know, their signage is big and loud and their their mottos are all tough but louder. You know, not your traditional Goff. It's like they're trying to present edgy Goff. is big and loud and their mottos are all tough but louder. Not your traditional golf. It's like they're trying to present edgy golf. Evolution can be uncomfortable, but we love this crazy game enough to try.

And look, golf is golf. I don't care how you dress it up. It's still a player hitting a ball at a hole and they're not doing anything differently when they strike the ball. They're not scoring it any really differently, but they're trying to make it seem like something edgy, new, different.

Like how it would really be, I think, if you imagine a bunch of 45 year olds in a room saying, how do we sell golf to the TikTok generation? That is what they have done. Right. Like, can you give me some some examples of some of the names? The Magic Sticks, I think is one. That was my favorite. I remember I remember that one.

I mean, I don't I mean, I don't know what it is. Like there's one called the Fireballs, right? Fireballs, Ironheads. I mean, if that doesn't get you fired up, I don't know. I don't know what does. I don't know what does. I don't know what does. And so you were talking about the money earlier. Let's come back to that. Because that kind of brings us into what makes this so controversial and, you know, why people are so divided on whether players should be leaving for this new tour. And I mean, that's got a lot to do with where the money is coming from, right?

tour uh and and i mean that's got a lot to do with where the money is coming from right oh yeah i mean this is this is kind of the overriding issue is no one can really begrudge anyone leaving a pga tour to make more money but you can take issue with knowing where the money is coming from and and the the players who are choosing to go this route, basically being OK with the idea of Saudi Arabia's human rights record and the many, many complicated issues that come with accepting payouts that are basically originating from the public investment fund, which is a autonomous wealth fund administered by the government of Saudi Arabia. Right, right, right. And I mean, just to add a little more detail there, I mean, you know, Amnesty International lists public beheadings, the imprisonment of activists and journalists. This is CCTV of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi entering the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul on October 2nd. Shoghi entering the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul on October 2nd. He hasn't been seen since. Turkish officials say the dissident was likely killed in the consulate, something Saudi officials deny.

Discrimination against women, I mean, among Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses. And since 2015, they've also been leading a military intervention in Yemen's civil war. Yet another airstrike killing civilians was blamed on the Saudi-led coalition fighting Houthi rebels backed by Iran. Which, this is a conflict that's led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, which is, you know, what always makes business dealings with the country so controversial. country so controversial. I mean, in terms of funding Live Golf, what do people watching this think that Saudi Arabia is trying to do here? The general consensus is there's this term sports washing, where it is using sports as a way to rebrand yourself, change public perceptions of the country. And it's been going on for many, many years in many, many sports. This is not unique. Saudi Arabia has hosted heavyweight title fights and Formula One races and wrestling events and tennis tournaments and other golf tournaments that many PGA Tour players

and DP World Tour players have participated in. This is a little bit different. You know, probably the biggest move done by Saudi Arabia before this was buying an 80% stake in Newcastle United, which is a massive soccer program. The sound reverberating around this part of Newcastle tonight, and they are delirious that they have new owners with big pockets coming in. It will propel Newcastle United, this deal, to the very top of the finance league in world football, the amount of investment coming in from this Saudi-led consortium. And that generated a lot of attention and angst in the sports world of saying, you know, this is different than hosting a golf tournament. When you are actually the controlling owner,

basically, that's a different deal. And that's the case of Live Golf, where Greg Norman, who i'm sure we'll talk a little bit about here uh was basically given two billion dollars up front for the first two years to go get himself players and as obviously succeeding at it and i believe two billion more has been pledged for the the following two years with the broader goal being, I think, and most people think changing people's perceptions of Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia wants to be Dubai. It wants to be a destination and it wants to have tourism and things like that. So the goal is to make money on changing perceptions of Saudi Arabia.

And I mean, Saudi Arabia isn't the only country that's been accused of sports washing, right? Not at all. No, not at all. I mean, China has hosted the Olympics recently and Qatar has hosted a World Cup. These are all instances that that people think of when it comes to countries with highly questionable human rights issues being enabled to use sports as a way to put attention onto those countries. So it's highly complicated stuff. And it's not only recently. I mean, you can go all the way back to Germany hosting the Olympics with Adolf Hitler in attendance. with Adolf Hitler in attendance. Sports has always been entangled with whether it's politics, whether it's geopolitics, whether it is just kind of our natural everyday life, you know, the tentacles run deep. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So how have golfers who have signed on with Live justified what they're doing here? Well, there's been some very well-crafted PR sentences written that have just been regurgitated and repeated over and over and over again by all the individuals participating. The actual form with responses preferred by Live management was leaked to media and came out.

And we could see when you get asked this, you say this. And it's you know, there's these these talking points of this isn't about sports watching. This is about growing the game of golf internationally, which is plainly absurd. And there's also this idea that this is an exciting new opportunity and that this is the way golf needs to change and golf needs to be different. The fact of the matter is, if the PGA Tour had the money to distribute that the Saudis do, nobody would go. The whole idea would be dead in the water. And I mean, who are the golfers that have signed on here? Yeah, so the biggest names are Phil Mickelson and Dustin Johnson johnson phil mickelson while presently is kind of well outside the world top 50 and not a very competitive presence despite

winning a major last year phil defeats father time now becoming the oldest player ever to win a major but beyond that victory he is a massive presence in the game for basically a quarter century he was the kind of offset of tiger woods you know that was the the big rivalry in golf was was tiger and phil and phil was always kind of painted as the everyman and has a massive massive following because of that. Like I was there when he won the PGA Championship and it was it was unreal the level of support he got. So, you know, he brings with him a huge crowd and and he's accepted nine figures plus reportedly to join Liv. The other name, the best actual player competing on Liv is Dustin Johnson, who is the number 16 ranked player in the world. And the 2020 Masters. The long-awaited Masters has a long-awaited champion in Dustin Johnson. You know, he's the biggest, best player out there. But beyond that, there's, I think, a total of 14 players or 16 players ranked in the top 100 in the world, which is pretty good.

But the question right now is who is there now? It's who's next. Right. And I mean, in terms of another big name, and you mentioned him earlier, but I mean, I want to talk about Greg Norman and some comments he made. So this guy was this like Gulf legend. You know, he's now the CEO of Liv. And last month he was asked at a presser about the alleged complicity of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman in the killing of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. What did Norman say there? I believe the quote was, people make mistakes, which to call the ordering of an assassination a mistake is obviously reprehensible. And it just kind of, it was a very, I thought,

a glaring example of the willingness of some people involved here to just kind of duck and dodge the the or do like a degree of moral gymnastics to kind of get around some of these things um and and and settle it and be okay with it and you know you'll hear a lot of people say you know well you know the united states has committed war crimes and all that like where's the backlash on that? You're like, yeah, well, sure. OK, that's that's fine. But at the same time, like this is literally a glaring example of how this this country

operates at the highest level. And just be too wrong to make a right not to go cliche. But that's kind of the fact of the matter is, you know, he was very willing to just kind of brush that aside in such a, like, kind of blasé way that it was very jarring. And I mean, obviously, there are a lot of players who have said no to live, right? Like, I mean, according to the Washington Post, Tiger Woods turned down a high nine-digit offer from them. So, you know, what are the players who are saying no to Liv saying about why they're making that choice? Basically, every top player in the world has been approached and been offered insane amounts of money. At the Memorial Tournament two weeks ago, Xander Shoffley was talking to a few reporters,

Xander Shoffley was talking to a few reporters and he just kind of talked about the idea that it was mind blowing to see the number put in front of him. But he talked about really outside of the moral side of it. It was look like I've made a lot of money. I don't need money. But I feel like the long-term kind of protections of being in the PGA Tour and knowing what your status is going to be in two years, four years, six years, and your ability to know that you can play in all four majors because there's a very good chance that live players are not going to be able to compete in one, two, three, who knows, maybe four of the majors, which is really all these guys.

If you're going to play at the best level, you're one of the best players in the world, you have to play in the majors. Otherwise, you're basically just playing exhibition golf, which is what Liv is. But every guy has their own story. I think the fact that very early on, Tiger Woods dismissed Liv out of turn and even said so publicly. I have decided for myself that I'm supporting the PGA Tour. That's where my legacy is.

You know, he did not support it. He is an advocate for the PGA Tour. He thinks that that's where the best golfers in the world should play. There is a generation of player where what Tiger Woods says is gospel. let's talk a little bit more about the the fallout from this now i mean firstly um like the pga tour has hit back pretty pretty hard on players saying that they're going to go play with Liv, right? What have they done? So presently, anyone who is playing for Liv has been suspended indefinitely from the PGA Tour. And that includes something called sponsor exemptions. So even if you're not a member of the PGA Tour, you can still play a PGA Tour event if the sponsor hosting the event gives you one of like five or 10 invitation spots that they have.

We don't know how long the suspensions are. We don't know when they'll run. exactly if those spots could be handed back out or if or if those individuals will legitimately have to go and re-qualify for the PGA Tour, which is what I think is going to be the way they handle it. But the problem is really, you know, professional golfers are independent contractors. So the PGA Tour really only has so much control over what they do. I mean, speaking more about the fallout, like you were mentioning Phil Mickelson before and how he was this kind of golden boy. And I mean, like, I guess just, you know, to further give people a sense of how big he is, like, I don't know very much about golf. And I know who Phil Mickelson is. Like, I've been hearing his name from my dad for like probably decades now.

I mean, you know, big deal. But I mean, can you give me a sense of like the kind of public image that he had maybe a year ago compared to his public image now? Phil has this thing. It almost is like a nervous tick where he just he just flashes thumbs up everywhere he walks. People have always felt like personally connected to him as an athlete that like represents them or something. And he just has that magnetism to him. And now he made some very controversial comments similar to Greg Norman, kind of poo-pooing Saudi Arabia's human rights stuff. In a piece posted on the Fire Pit Collective, the World Golf Hall of Famer told journalist Alan Shipnuk that he would support the new league, even though the Saudis are scary to get involved with.

We know they killed Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates. in a lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates. And ever since then, it's just been this crashing downfall where Phil has lost all of his sponsors. And now he's wearing all black in some kind of like weird Johnny Cash slash Darth Vader look. I'm not sure what he's going for, but he now wears all black with a logo of himself.

Oh, my gosh. Just his own personalized look so that's his new look uh he's got like it's like five o'clock shadow going oh yeah and i'm not sure if this is if it's concocted it's actually pretty brilliant if it's not it's kind of sad but um so this is this is him now and he's going to press conferences and where phil was a guy who used to really kind of control a press conference and control his image and control his message and all these things. And that's gone because he was at a press conference today where he looked nervous and he looked shook. And he was being asked by media about getting letters from 9-11 families asking him not to do this.

getting letters from 9-11 families asking him not to do this. And it's just a total 180 from the version that we've long been used to. And I will be fascinated when he tees off at 147 in Boston on Thursday because Boston's one of the great American sports cities, and they are outspoken. And are they going to still be riding with him because he's phil mickelson or there's they're gonna be some stray booze or some animosity i have no idea what to expect my guess would be um the majority will cheer because it's golf and this is what kind of the game represents, which, you know,

I said mental and moral gymnastics earlier. And sometimes being around this sport requires that. Yeah. Well, I mean, I was going to, I was going to say like golf isn't exactly known for like taking, you know, strong progressive stances on, on human rights and social issues, right? Like, I mean, this is a sport that has a very long and very recent history of, you know, excluding black people, excluding Jewish people, excluding women.

So, I mean, how do you think that, you know, golf in particular has struggled to kind of grapple with social and political issues? Yeah, I mean, it's a sport that's always been controlled by older, wealthy white men, frankly. So that's that's the game. The game has tried to adjust with the times. It's always been far behind. There were there were very prominent golf courses in the United States that still had outright segregation rules written into their bylaws as recently as the 90s. So it's always a game that's been about 50 years behind in evolving.

And some places have had and organizations have tried to come kind of face to face with their history and other places just kind of, you know, we'll just donate some money over here. Right. And that'll just that'll take care, take care of those issues and things like that. you know, playing golf and being on a golf course and what the game represents as for camaraderie amongst your friends when you're out there playing. It's hard. It really is hard to kind of balance what the game is with what the sport is. And that's always been an issue. So, I mean, you know, we've talked a lot about the backlash to live.

And I mean, also, we haven't really talked about this, but but I mean, you can't even watch it right now on on TV. You can only watch it online because, you know, major broadcasters aren't picking it up. But, you know, even with those kind of strikes against it, as we've noted, there's also like a ton of money behind this league. As we've noted, there's also like a ton of money behind this league. So, I mean, you know, moving forward, do you see Liv as a legitimate competitor here? Or is it going to just kind of be like this sideshow that won't go away? Well, yeah, I mean, legitimate is an interesting word. It's not going anywhere.

And it is a very real threat to the pga tour with without a doubt the big fear amongst those in at the pga tour is as it gets normalized the guys right now are the ones taking the hit the pr hit but and the next guy that comes it's going to be lesser and then the guy after that is going to be lesser so what does this look like two years from now how sustainable is losing talent to an entity like the tour you just can't you can't afford that right now they're hosting like seven events with one season ending tour championship uh this is on live i mean and in, they're planning to move to a 14 event series. And there's already another $2 billion behind that. The only way I could see this going away or just remaining this kind of sideshow is if

literally nobody watches. Right. Well, I guess we'll have to see. Brendan, thank you so, so much. I know you're covering a golf event right now from a tent, a sweaty, not air-conditioned tent. So I really, really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. No, it's my pleasure. And yeah, thanks. Hope you come back on again.

Happy to. That's all for today. I'm Allie Janes, and for Jamie Poisson, thanks for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll see you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.