Front Burner - Serial killer Bruce McArthur pleads guilty

Episode Date: January 30, 2019

On Tuesday, Bruce McArthur pleaded guilty to eight counts of first-degree murder and we heard never-before-released details about the evidence in the case. But as we hear from freelance reporter Justin Ling, there are still lots of unanswered questions about how McArthur committed his crimes and what comes next.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood, or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson.

Just heading into the courthouse now, but we're going to have to turn this off. Yesterday I headed to an Ontario Superior Court in Toronto. We'd heard on Monday that accused serial killer Bruce MacArthur could plead guilty. And after the judge handled a couple of unrelated matters, that's exactly what happened. MacArthur was led into court in cuffs, black sweater over a collared shirt, grey hair, trimmed short. Then, a reading of the details of eight separate first-degree murders. MacArthur had preyed on men with ties to Toronto's gay village. He pled guilty to all counts.

The whole process, it took about 30 minutes. Then I headed back outside to a crush of reporters speaking with community leader Haran Vijayanathan. He works on behalf of the victims. Whenever you have to recount the details and the emotions, it brings everything back up. And again, I keep going back to ensuring that those families and individuals have supports that they need to get through this part of it. And this is going to be the most difficult part, I think. My colleague Justin Ling was there.

Now that we have a conviction, is the conversation going to turn towards some sort of inquiry, some sort of commission investigating why it did take 10 years? That question, will there be a public inquiry, is just one of many things we still don't know about this story.

I'm going to sort through that today with Justin. Hey, Justin. Hey, how's it going? Good, good. So is that what you expected? Yeah, more or less. I mean, I think there's fewer details than maybe we thought might come out today, but obviously those are coming next week. I assume that they usually kind of like to wrap this up really quickly, so I'm surprised that there's a second day, but... Justin's been covering this

story since it broke. Okay, so let's regroup and we'll meet back. I'll shoot a message later. Today on FrontBurner, we're going to try to establish what we do know about the terrible case and what important questions remain. Okay, so we're back in studio. I'm with Justin Ling, and we've got the agreed statement of facts from court this morning. What stood out to you? Truthfully, there's not a lot in here I didn't expect to see. We got word kind of just before MacArthur entered the courtroom that these would not be the full statement of facts. So this is basically just the necessary amount of information

needed to convince the judge that a first-degree murder charge in all eight cases is warranted. And that's what's here. We're going to get the rest of the details likely next week. We will not be here today, if not for the work of Detective David Dickinson of the Homicide Squad. This process is not over. We will be back next month to move forward with submissions for sentencing.

That's when the Crown and police are going to enter into evidence, kind of the full spate of the things they learned over the course of their investigation. And the victim's family is going to enter into evidence kind of the full spate of the things they learned over the course of their investigation. And the victim's family is going to have a chance to enter in victim impact statements to basically explain to the court what MacArthur took away from them. And that will ultimately inform the judge's decision about sentencing. There's not a lot that's going to change there. We know MacArthur's pled guilty to eight counts of first-degree murder.

I'm not saying it's a win. It's, you know, Bruce MacArthur has pled guilty, and that's closure. You know, it's the right outcome. The big thing we're going to learn next week, or maybe the week after, is whether or not MacArthur's going to serve those charges concurrently or consecutively. So explain to me what that means. Right, so if he serves them concurrently, it means he'll be eligible for parole in 25 years. So when he's 91 years old, he'll have the ability to go before a parole board and request release.

That could be day release. It could be full release. We don't fully know. But either way, he'll be 91. Now, if those charges come consecutively, it will be 200 years before he's eligible for parole. And obviously, he'll be long dead. And so I know that there weren't a ton of details that came up in court today, but there were some. So let's go over what we've gleaned. So this statement of fact confirms some of the things we've suspected for a while, that he dismembered his victims, that they were

placed in flowerpots behind the Mallory Crescent property where he worked, that one of his victims was basically buried in a ravine below. We know that from this charge sheet that several of these murders were, you know, quote, sexual in nature. And it suggests very strongly that there were, in fact, images or pictures taken of multiple of the victims. We know, of course, that in the case of Krishna Kumar, that there was a photo of his body.

That is because the police released that photo in that really rare move trying to identify him. Today, we are going to be releasing a photograph of an individual who we believe is an unidentified victim of Mr. MacArthur. I do not want to release this picture, and I'm doing so as a last resort. And of course, that's how he was identified. One thing that I gleaned from listening today was the use of ligature. Yeah.

Which suggests that it's possible that he strangled his victims. It could mean that. We also know that they discovered a duffel bag essentially in his apartment that contained tape, other items that could have been used to bind his victims, rope in some cases was mentioned. So we don't really know what ligature means, whether it was strangulation or whether it was binding them. Part of what the Crown needs to confirm to the court is that there was premeditation or that there was confinement of the victims. That's one of the qualifications for first degree murder. So that is why you see some of this evidence in here. That is why you're seeing little details in this agreed upon statement of facts. Some other details that are notable is that he kept personal items from his victims.

So a bracelet, a notebook from another victim, and that he staged the bodies. And I don't think we really know what that means at this point. You were talking about how there's an indication that there were many photographs that could have been. Yeah, I take staging to mean that there was photographs taken. And, you know, this is not uncommon for serial killers, which is something we can finally call him, serial killer. Taking mementos or items from the victims is definitely a commonality for a lot of different

killers. And that seems to be what happens here. And obviously that is one of the things that allowed police to lay so many of these charges so well in advance of actually discovering the bodies. You know, we're talking about a leather bracelet worn by Scanda Navaratnam and that his DNA was on it. And they found that in MacArthur's bedroom. Obviously, that discovery confirmed very early on that, you know, that he was a lot more facts are going to come out, but let's go over the significant things that we still don't know.

Right. So, you know, we don't know what the murder weapon was. In some cases, we don't know where the murders actually occurred. We don't know what the murder weapon was. In some cases, we don't know where the murders actually occurred. It will be interesting to see the extent of the evidence collected from his apartment. We know they were in his apartment for months, you know, doing DNA analysis, doing forensic recreation of his hard drive. And, you know, we don't know fully what they found there. And we expect they're probably going to put them in the evidence next week, whatever that is.

And I think judging by the fact that they seem to be kind of reserving several days of hearings, I think there's going to be a lot. So we don't know the scope of what he kept or what he stored on his computer. There's still some question about whether or not there was a second location where he may have hid those bodies before taking the de Mallory Crescent. If that is, in fact, the case, if they were somewhere else, you know, that opens up a whole other kind of conversation about potentially other victims. And, you know, that's another big question is the possibility that there could be other victims. And police said today the investigation is ongoing. What do we know about whether or not there could be other victims. And police said today the investigation is ongoing. What do we know about whether or not there could be other victims? Because there are numerous families that have

come forward saying that they suspect that their loved one could possibly have been a victim of Bruce MacArthur. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, there are 25 cold cases going back to 1975 that police are looking at for possible involvement of Bruce MacArthur. Our investigative team are currently reviewing homicide cold cases from 1975 to 1997. They've not found anything yet. It's a lot of DNA analysis at this point, and that takes time. But, you know, that's an open question. And when I asked Detective David Dickinson today, he basically said, you know, not a day goes by where he's not kind of putting in some work to look and see whether or not MacArthur could be involved in some of those cases.

I'm not sure if there is a day that will go by that I won't make a note in my book. This investigation will continue and we will continue to look at any other possible connections that anyone may have had to Bruce MacArthur. You know, there's no guarantee that there will ever be answers there, but they're going to keep working. And I know you've been covering this, you've been steeped in this case for the last year. I know that you're writing a book about Bruce MacArthur, but you're also working on a podcast because this case has pushed you as well to look into these cold cases. Can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah. So over the last couple of months, we kind of made the decision, you know, this case opens up a whole other door of violence against queer people in the city of Toronto and, you know, elsewhere in the world. And I think we're curious to know, yeah, was Bruce MacArthur involved?

Is there a possibility that his, you know, his fingerprints or DNA could be, you know, tied up in one of these cases. But more than that, you know, I think it's, we're kind of operating under the belief that these cases deserve a second look, right? Part of the reason why Bruce MacArthur was able to kill so many men is because his victims, the men who went missing, didn't get enough attention. You know, there wasn't a spotlight shone on those men. Some of these men were never reported missing. Some of them never had the fulsome investigation they deserved. And by not doing that, he was allowed to, you know, operate with impunity for many years. So I think our belief is that the cases going back to 1975 didn't get enough attention then.

And there were many cases. You know, there was a three-year period where 14 gay men were murdered incredibly violently in the city of Toronto. Today, police are continuing their investigation of this latest murder. There were extreme tensions between police and Toronto's gay community. And increasingly, there were murders of gay men, many of which remained unsolved. Police say the investigation into the three killings is virtually at a standstill because of a lack of information. You know, looking back at those cases, there's still so much to learn about, even present day, how we deal with cases like this, how we deal with cases against marginalized

people, against transgender people, against immigrants. You know, there's all these questions tied up, not just in the MacArthur case, but in all of this violence going back, you know, 40 years. So back to Bruce MacArthur for a second. The fact that he pleaded guilty, what does that mean? Yeah, it means so much. I mean, for many of the friends and family of these men, for many of the material witnesses who would have taken the stand, this is such a relief.

This is basically allowing them freedom from not having to sit on the stand and relive the horrible trauma they've experienced over the last several years. And I know that that is going to be a huge relief for a lot of them. We, myself and the investigative team, are pleased that Mr. MacArthur has pled guilty today, sparing the community and those who knew the victims a lengthy trial. I believe that this is the best possible outcome for the families and the community. I think for, I don't want to speak for the family of these men,

but I think, you know, from my point of view, there is a bit of an undercurrent that maybe there's some answers that we could get from trial that we're now not going to get. And I think that is going to be frustrating. If there wasn't the opportunity to properly cross-examine witnesses or even question MacArthur himself

if he chose to take the stand. And I think that was very unlikely anyway. But I think what police are going to do next week is try their best to enter in the evidence that might provide some of those answers, which I think is good. And I think that's healthy. I think there's going to be evidence that is going to say a lot about the investigation and a lot about these men. And there's going to be evidence that it's going to be very hard to listen to and very hard to see.

And I know that the families are going to pick and choose what they hear and what they don't hear. And I think that's entirely healthy. pick and choose what they hear and what they don't hear, and I think that's entirely healthy. I think next week will also be, you know, sort of a recognition of the work that did go into this as well. You know, I saw some detectives in the courtroom today who have been working on this for, you know, so many years, and I think for whom, you know, this is also pretty significant.

David Dickinson, you know, has toiled over this case for years and years. There's some closure for me too as well today. It's been tough on my family. It's been tough on the entire team's family. But again, we did this for the family. We did this for the communities. People wanted answers. I'm hoping that we brought some of those answers to them.

Detective Hingatzinga, same story. The events which transpired in court today are the culmination of a tremendous amount of work on the part of the investigative team from the Toronto Police Service. Detective Mike Richman, Detective Joshua McKenzie, these guys who I've been talking to for upwards of five years, I can only imagine that I think there's going to be something kind of cathartic about finally putting this evidence into the record and saying, you know,

we didn't catch him when we wanted to, but we did finally get him. We don't know a lot about how they got him. This morning at approximately 10.25 a.m., police arrested 66-year year old Bruce MacArthur. Is that something that we're going to hear more about next week? Or is there another way in which you think we're going to find out about how they actually did get him in the end? I have a you know, I have a pretty good indication, you know, in this agreed statement of facts.

There's a line that let me let me let me pull it up just so I know exactly what it says here, but it says the police located Mr. Kinsman, and that's Andrew Kinsman, who the last man to go missing, the last man to be murdered. He would not leave all of us hanging like this. An emotional plea from Andrew Kinsman's friends, Ted Healy and Megan Marion at 51 Division. I'm extremely worried. I don't know the circumstances. I'm not speculating. I just want said the police located Mr. Kinsman's calendar, which had an entry for, quote, Bruce, on June 26, 2017. And that was, of course, the day police believe he was murdered. That, I can only imagine, was, you know, the red flag that sort of set off the chain of events that led to his surveillance and eventually his arrest. Because we know that police interviewed Bruce MacArthur some four years prior to that.

We know that under Project Houston, the investigative project that first was investigating these three missing men, they interviewed Bruce MacArthur because he had ties to those three men. MacArthur, because he had ties to those three men. And I think seeing, you know, pretty clear evidence that Andrew Kinsman had intentions to meet, you know, someone named Bruce that day, basically confirmed to them that, you know, they had had the right guy four years prior. So let's talk about the fact that they had the right guy four years prior. There's been a lot of anger, understandably, in the community. The relationship between the Toronto Police Service and Toronto's LGBT community is at its worst since I joined in the protests in the streets out here against the bathhouse raids back in 1981. As you mentioned, Bruce MacArthur was interviewed as part of Project Houston,

which was a case actually looking into these three missing men. What do we know about what happened there? So earlier last year, reading the Globe and Mail, me and my colleague heard from a source within the Toronto Police Service who told us that, you know, they were upset about the police's reaction to this case and confirmed to us that MacArthur had been tied to Skanda Navaratnam, Adel Basar Faizi, and Majid Kayhan. In two of those cases, I know how. I know that Bruce MacArthur dated Skanda off and on for a number of years. And I know that not long before he went missing, Bruce MacArthur was inside Magi K'an's apartment. That's a pretty strong tie to two missing men. And according to our police source, there was a link to Bassier as well. We don't quite know how yet. But the fact

that they had him tied to three missing men should have been, you know, about as big as red flag as you can find. And then of course, we know there was at least a second incident in 2016 when a man reported to the police that MacArthur tried to choke him in his car. That's right. And we still don't know all the details of that. That was thanks to your reporting. But it's something that was confirmed to us by our police source as well, that basically there was an incident where MacArthur,

you know, his victim believes, tried to murder him. And when he reported that to police, Bruce MacArthur had basically beaten him to the punch. And, you know, it was basically chalked up to a, according to our police source, a quote, he said he said situation, and there was never any charges laid. It doesn't seem like there was any reports filed. You know, that incident has been subsequently subjected to an internal investigation sparked by Detective Sergeant Hanketsenga himself. So we don't know the results of that investigation yet, whether there are any.

So there's so much to answer for here. You know, I think this is what people are still waiting for. Yes, there is a conviction now, but people still want answers. You know, people want answers as to why Bruce MacArthur was interviewed in 2013 and that the project looking into these three missing persons cases was shut down some six months later. They want to know why, you know, when MacArthur was in that police station, there weren't charges laid, why they didn't connect him to those prior disappearances. People want to know why these men were able to go missing

without being linked to the original missing persons cases, because there was evidence that they should have been. There is some closure here, but not nearly enough. There is currently an independent review ordered by the Toronto Police Board that was sparked because of this case. It's looking at how the police handle a missing persons case. Where is that? It's a good question. As I understand it, the work is ongoing.

They basically are meeting behind closed doors, which is how they should be. They're going to come out on the other end with conclusions or recommendations based on how police handle these missing persons cases and how they handle missing persons cases more broadly. That's good. You know, up until quite recently, Toronto Police did not have a dedicated missing persons unit. That is, for many people, unfathomable. And rightfully so. That is, it is objection, unfathomable, and rightfully so. It is objectionable that they didn't. After Robert Pickton was convicted of murdering a number of

sex workers on the downtown east side in Vancouver, there was a commission of inquiry tasked with really looking into how that was allowed to happen. One of the conclusions was that failure to have a dedicated missing persons unit contributed to the inability of them to make the links between those cases. You know, fast forward, you know, a decade, that's exactly what happened here. And, you know, I think that's frustrating. It's frustrating to see all this work go into, you know, to analyzing how policing in Canada works, to point out those failures and still see those failures replicate themselves, you know, decade after decade. So, you know, this independent review is good. I think there's going to be calls now for a proper commission of inquiry, a proper public inquiry.

Right. I want to pick up on that because I was watching you today in the scrum outside the courthouse and you were laser focused on this question, asking if there should be an inquiry. Is the conversation going to turn towards some sort of inquiry, some sort of commission investigating? So tell me, what is that? How would it be different than this independent review that's currently being done? Yeah, this independent review has a scope that is relatively narrow, and that's good. You know, this independent review was started before MacArthur was convicted. It didn't have the authority to go investigate, you know, those charges that were still before the court. It wasn't allowed to interfere in that investigation, and that's good.

But as such, you know, by starting it that early, it had to have a more limited scope. After that, after sentencing, after, you know, some of this stuff has been sort of more publicly aired, I do think there has to be a conversation about something more public, something open, you know, the community, I think, quite rightly, feels targeted after this, they feel marginalized, ignored and targeted. And I think without a public inquiry to examine those feelings, there's not going to be a chance to address them. You know, examine those feelings, there's not going to be a chance to address them. You know, there are,

you know, numerous sort of issues that are being raised now, questions about whether or not the LGBTQ outreach by the Toronto Police is sufficient. And I think a lot of people say it's absolutely not, you know, questions about whether this new missing persons unit is going to do enough questions about whether or not Toronto Police should be basically flagging more missing persons reports to the public. They're still not doing that. You know, these are really good questions. And I mean, you know,

think about the anger that was targeted towards Chief Saunders just, you know, last year after he spoke to the Globe and Mail. Incredible anger. After he basically suggested that friends and families of the victims and friends and families of these missing men and people in the community didn't do enough to bring information forward.

Here's the encounter that I had with this person, but I don't necessarily think that that person would do all of these things. So I'm not going to report that to the police because my fear is that if I say this, the police are going to go and arrest this person for something that could be incredibly egregious. And I don't want to be a part of that process. You know, I think just that statement is just so evident of the misunderstanding that police continue to have about the community that not having some sort of public forum to address that would be a real failure. Justin, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Absolutely. Just to recap, next week this case picks up again. We're likely to hear some tough details about what happened to these men, and we'll hear statements from the victims' families.

And Justin will be going so much deeper into the cold cases he mentioned in his upcoming CBC podcast. It's called Uncover the Village, and it launches April 2nd. Look for it wherever you listen to podcasts. for it wherever you listen to podcasts. That's it for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus.

Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle

and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.