Front Burner - Sex abuse lawsuit looms for Prince Andrew

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

As a U.S. judge has ruled a sex abuse lawsuit can proceed against Prince Andrew, the second son of Queen Elizabeth, who last week was stripped of his military titles and royal patronages. The lawsuit is being brought by Virginia Giuffre, who has long claimed she was sex-trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and that she was raped by Andrew as a teenager. Maxwell was convicted of sex trafficking late last year. The prince denies the allegations against him. Today, ITV royal news editor and host of the Royal Rota podcast Chris Ship explains what's led up to this moment, what can be expected as the case moves forward, and what it means for the legacy of the Royal Family during the Platinum Jubilee year.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. But you were staying at the house of a convicted sex offender. It was a convenient place to stay. admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable, but that's just the way it is.

Since Prince Andrew gave this disastrous interview to the BBC in 2019, he's stepped back from public life, been hit with a lawsuit over the alleged rape of a teenager, and now he can't even officially be called His Royal Highness. Buckingham Palace has announced that Prince Andrew is returning his royal and military titles to the Queen and will no longer be referred to as His Royal Highness in any official capacity. A statement from Buckingham Palace said going forward, Andrew would fight his sexual assault case as a private citizen. The prince has been fighting allegations of rape since 2015, when Virginia Jeffrey named the prince as she tried to join a civil case against his former friend, convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

And last week, a U.S. federal judge in New York ruled this new civil suit against Andrew can proceed, meaning the man who gave this interview. Just for the record, you've been on his private plane. Yes. You've been to stay on his private island. Yes. You've stayed at his home in Palm Beach. Yes. You visited Gellan Maxwell's house in Belgravia in London.

Yes. Could give a depan Maxwell's house in Belgravia in London. Yes. Could give a deposition under oath this year. Today, what Buckingham Palace has taken back from the prince, what we could expect at a trial, and what it means for the legacy of the royal family during the Platinum Jubilee year. I'm here with ITV News royal editor and host of the Royal Rota podcast, Chris Shipp. Hi, Chris. Thank you so much for making the time.

Hey, you're most welcome. Thank you for having me. So before we move to the news, I wonder for people who are not avid royal watchers, or I suppose avid watchers of the crown, I wonder if you could briefly tell me about Prince Andrew. Who is he? And before this scandal, what was he most known for as a member of the royal family? one is he again now prince andrew basically the queen's second son the queen has three sons it goes charles and andrew edward uh so andrew's child number three or son number two um he's also known as the duke of york um and before this before this whole sorry tale um he was probably best known as a bit of a party prince you know air Air Miles Andy was a name that he picked up during the sort of 1990s because of all the travelling he did. You were perceived by the public as being the party prince. Was that something you shared? Well, I think that's also a bit of a stretch.

I don't know why I've collected that title because I don't, I never have really partied. And prior to that, he actually served in the Royal Navy. In fact, he served in the Falklands War in the early 1980s. And he was a helicopter pilot in the war. So quite a big hero figure in some respects. But then fast forward to where we are in 2022, and it's an entirely different situation. Yes. And I guess let's get into that. Sorry, Théon, now. So maybe let's start with the

statement that Buckingham Palace released on Thursday. It caused quite a firestorm. I understand it was only two sentences long, though. Just after five o'clock, Buckingham Palace issued a short statement regarding the Duke of York. With the Queen's approval and agreement, the Duke of York's military affiliations and royal patronages have been returned to the Queen. The Duke of York will continue not to undertake any public duties and is defending this case as a private citizen. Yeah, so Thursday, we um we for example had cameras last week um as close as we could get to prince andrew's house now he lives in a place called royal lodge it's on the windsor estate

and we had word that he'd moved with all he's shown his face what's going on and some of the photographers called his picture as well uh well so it transpired when we got a statement at about 5 p.m. UK time from Buckingham Palace that the Queen had seen her son and had decided that he could no longer be called His Royal Highness and he would no longer have his military affiliations. Basically, anything that the Queen herself back to him. In other words, it was over. So he's not a prince anymore? No, he remains a prince. It's in the same way that Prince Harry is still a prince, because he is still the Queen's son. So he's still Prince Andrew. He's still the Duke of York, because that dukedom that he's got exists. But any of his military titles, any of his sort of, anything that was in her gift, she took back. So let's get into the sorry story, the civil case now. Virginia

Dufresne's accusations against Prince Andrew, they really started back in 2015 when she made claims about the prince in this lawsuit against Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein and Andrew were friends. And at the time, I remember a judge struck those from the record saying they weren't relevant to the case against Epstein. Focus on what she says in this new civil case against the prince himself filed in August last year. In the suit, what does Jeffrey allege about the prince? So what Virginia Jeffrey says, and as you rightlying Prince Andrew, alleging that she was sexually abused by him in three locations in 2001 when she was 17. Those three locations are London, New York at Jeffrey Epstein's mansion, and the private island that Jeffrey Epstein had in the US Virgin Isles. Those are three locations where she alleges that she was sexually abused by Prince Andrew. In other words, that she was trafficked to him. No one's accusing Prince Andrew of being a sex trafficker here.

That was what Ghislaine Maxwell was found guilty of at that trial over the Christmas period. But she claims that she was trafficked to Prince Andrew for sex. He, of course, denies that he's ever even met her. She says she met you in 2001. She says she dined with you, danced with you at Tramp Nightclub in London. She went on to have sex with you in a house in Belgravia

belonging to Gerlaine Maxwell, your friend. Your response? I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady. None whatsoever. You don't remember meeting her? No. Right. Essentially, he is the recipient of the trafficking.

And as you mentioned, these accusations, they have been made before in other forums. And Andrew has responded to some of them in this 2019 interview with the BBC, which was pretty bad. Yeah, as interviews go, that's not how you want them to go. That would be a bit of an understatement, right? Yeah. Can you talk to me about how he defended himself and his relationship with Epstein and how he responded to these accusations in this interview? Well, he didn't do very well, put it that way. I mean, he failed to sort of express any sort of sympathy

for the victims of Jeffrey Epstein at the time Epstein was dead. He did latterly in a sort of written communication, but not during that hour-long interview. He claims that he met Jeffrey Epstein through Ghislaine Maxwell because he and Ghislaine were friends when she was at university. She was at Oxford University in were friends when she was at university. She was at Oxford University in the UK when she was younger. And that's how they started that friendship. And it was through Ghislaine that he met Jeffrey Epstein. And then he would, I mean,

he basically said in that interview, he learned a lot about business from Jeffrey Epstein. So here's a prince who's been in the Royal Navy, as I explained earlier, for a long period of time. And he met this businessman, Jeffrey Epstein, and he liked the relationship with him because he taught him about business and the world of work and trade. Do you regret the whole friendship with Epstein? Now, still not. And the reason being is that the people that I met and the opportunities that I was given to learn, either by him or because of him, were actually very useful. And there was a time when Prince Andrew was a sort of trade ambassador for the UK. We need to go around the world. That's how he got this nickname I mentioned earlier, Air Miles Andy. go around the world that's how he got this nickname i mentioned earlier air miles andy so he says and that's why you know he stayed at his houses and mansions and estates and all the rest of it and actually how epstein himself ended up in places like sandringham and balmoral because

he was invited to go to those places by prince andrew because of prince andrew's friendship with galene maxwell i i remember from interview, he was talking about how he couldn't have had sex with Geoffrey in Ghislaine Maxwell's London home because he'd gone home after going to a chain restaurant called Pizza Express. Do you remember that moment? On that particular day that we now understand is the date, which is the 10th of March, I was at home. I was with the children. I'd taken Beatrice to a pizza express in Woking for a party at, I suppose, sort of four or five in the afternoon. Why would you remember that so specifically? Why would you remember a Pizza Express birthday and being at home? Because going to Pizza Express in Woking

is an unusual thing for me to do. Oh, okay. So Pizza Express, he says that he was at a birthday party, not his daughter's birthday party, but I think his daughter had been invited to a birthday party at Pizza Express in Woking. And you're right. I mean, when you go to to pizza express you don't expect to see a member of the royal family in there you expect to see them eating in other places so that in itself was like oh wow really and i funny enough i you know i drove past it the other day and um the actual place is in a town called woking which is just outside london not a million miles from where he was living at the time. And it's become quite infamous. Everyone talks about Peter expressing woking since that interview. And he also talked about sweating, right?

That was one very weird moment. The sweating thing was bizarre because the allegation that Virginia Dufresne made previously, that when she met him at this nightclub in London called Tramps, Prince Andrew was sweating profusely. Now, as part of his defence of why it couldn't have been him or why he wasn't there, not only did he say, well, I was at Peter Express, but also, I don't sweat. There's a slight problem with the sweating, because I have a peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat, or I didn't sweat at the time. And that was... Question mark. Why don't you sweat?

Well, apparently it's because of something that happened during the Falklands War. I had suffered what I would describe as an overdose of adrenaline in the Falklands War when I was shot at. And I simply, it was it was it was almost impossible for me to to sweat um and he's got some sort of medical condition where which means he can't sweat um you know you look back on that interview now and you think my goodness why didn't anyone go through this with him beforehand and say say this don't say that but this is what he said you know the sweating the pizza express and the other one that people talk about as a lot is when he talks about the birthday party

for galen maxwell and he goes no no it wasn't a birthday party it was a shooting weekend am i right in thinking you threw a birthday party um for epstein's girlfriend galen maxwell at sandringham no it was a shooting weekend a shooting weekend just a straightforward straightforward shooting weekend as if we all. Just a straightforward shooting weekend. As if we all have shooting weekends, which we don't. Yes, it struck me as a real masterclass in how to not do one of those interviews. I would say that media studies students of the future, when talking about how to do an interview or not,

this is a good case study for how not to do one. So, of course, he's denied all these allegations, but probably worth noting, like his lawyers haven't exactly jumped at the chance to get him in a courtroom a judge ruled that it can now go forward but how have his lawyers tried to stop the case from going to trial well the reason why the judge made quite a big decision last week is because andrew's lawyers previously argued that the case cannot go ahead because of illegal technicality what was the legal technicality well it was going all the way back to a settlement agreement in 2009 that his accuser, Virginia Dufresne, had signed with Jeffrey Epstein. Now, in that settlement agreement, she received 500,000 US dollars, so half a million dollars. And in return, she agreed in that settlement not to pursue anybody else for legal recompense.

The 2009 settlement does not mention Prince Andrew directly. The deal also has language releasing, quote, any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant. Now, Prince Andrew's lawyers claims, well, therefore, oh, he was covered by that. He was one of these so-called, quotes, potential defendants in this settlement agreement in 2009. And Virginia Dufresne basically received the sum of money and agreed not to sue anybody else.

The judge said, no, and this case will proceed. The judge said it was not clear that a settlement agreement applied to Prince Andrew. The agreement is ambiguous and is subject to multiple interpretations. The suit has to go forward and it has to go to trial so that we can flesh out those issues more fully. Now, when you say proceed, that's either to a trial or it's towards a settlement. We just don't know which way it's heading at the moment. Right, right.

So the judge said that who was covered by Epstein's settlement was ambiguous. And so that couldn't get the complaint dismissed, although it seems he left the door open for further arguments about it at the actual trial. But I want to talk about the potential for Prince Andrew to settle. You know, if it did happen, optically, would a settlement really be a win for the Prince here? I don't think it would be a win. It would stop the case and stop all the, you know, the ongoing legal ramifications and, you know, having his private life looked into in such detail. Is it a good outcome for Prince Andrew? Absolutely not. Because whilst you can

do a settlement agreement and, you know, it's a no-fault settlement agreement, you're not admitting any liability. I think there would be a presumption on behalf of many people that, you know, she is being paid off and this is not going to court. Question mark, why? And also, I think the other thing that even Virginia Dufresne's lawyers have hinted at this, she is not a woman of limited financial means. She is not looking for her next paycheck or her next monthly rents being paid. She doesn't need the money, you could argue. And therefore, she might not be interested in a financial settlement alone. Before we came on air, I spoke to Virginia Dufresne's attorney, David Boyce.

I think what she wants, first and foremost, is vindication. She wants to call Prince Andrew to account in court. She might insist, well, if you do want to settle out of court, I want you to apologize or i want you to admit x y or z i don't know this is hypothesis and so um i don't think a settlement agreement necessarily is a particularly good outcome for prince andrew right she's interested in injustice uh you know above all above all else she wants her to it seems like she wants her time in court yes um based on on the allegations but we should be clear he denies them he denies he's ever

even met her despite that widely seen photograph of him with his arm around her waist he doesn't recall ever having met virginia dufresne he's quite emphatic about that you've seen the photo i've seen the photograph how do you explain that i can't because I don't I have no again I have absolutely no memory of that photograph ever being taken. In the Dragon's Den a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here.

You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. What happens, Chris, if this case actually does go to trial? Like what would the prince have to

submit to? Now, I'm talking to you from London, and I'm not an expert in US law. I am trying to become quite expertise in US law as I go through this case. Now, as I understand it, and this is what US attorneys have told me, is that the next stage is the discovery stage. And the judge has allowed this now to proceed, as we just discussed. As part of that discovery, there will be depositions. Now, one of the people who will have to give a deposition is, well, who? Prince Andrew. He gets, I understand it's a videotaped session, court-ordered video. There's a stenographer there. There's no judge present, but Prince Andrew gets questioned by Virginia Dufresne lawyers. Now, David Boyes, who's Virginia Dufresne's lawyer in

New York, is apparently one of the best deposition lawyers in the United States, kind of guy you wouldn't necessarily want to go up against. And I do wonder, look at what Prince Andrew did in that hour-long interview on Newsnight and how much trouble he got himself in, even if it was just reputationally. You just put the legals aside. Reputationally, it was damaging. What's going to happen if he has to give seven seven hours of interviews to a deposition lawyer that's like on public record and then the fbi if the fbi so wishes can comb through that deposition and say well and look for evidence of criminality if there were to be any in there. So it's a risky process that he if he wants to take this to trial, and if he wants to clear his name, as he says he does,

it's not a straightforward process. It's not without risk, not just from a legal point of view, but from a reputational point of view as well, because all of his diaries and flight logs and, you know, movements and friendships and phone calls will all have to come out. Yeah, you know, really, it does not sound like there are a lot of good options left for Andrew. You're right. And that's why last week was such a big story, because the options facing Prince Andrew, they are all difficult. I mean, the third option he's got, by the way, I should say, is to default. And obviously, to default would be like saying, oh, sorry, you've won the case. I'm not going to put up any evidence or defend myself.

And then the judge just rules in Virginia Dufry's favor. Not a good option either. So you're right to say none of the options are good. So the decision by the Queen to take back his military titles and royal patronages, you know, I know he had already essentially withdrawn from public life after the disastrous BBC interview. But why do you think that the family waited until the decision to greenlight the case to move forward to take this this action i think they needed to see that if this was going to proceed in the way in which the judge ordered last week it had the

potential to overshadow the queen's platinum jubilee so we are entering a year in which britain has never ever had a monarch in fact canada's never had a monarch because she's your queen as much as i've been we've never had a monarch who has reigned for 70 years. We've never had a platinum jubilee in British history. It's a big year for the queen. She's 95 years old. And if this case is going to proceed, which we now know it will in whatever form Prince Andrew decides to take it, it is going to overshadow the Queen's jubilee. So she had to put clear blue water between him and the rest of the royal family. And you're right to say he had temporarily stepped down previously from his role. That was a big enough story at the time as well,

because that was unprecedented when that was kind of taken away from him on a temporary basis. It's now permanent. It's like's like look this is doing damage to the royal family this case is going to drag on you now have to step back permanently there's no way back for you from here um you know that's i always thought the queen personally if you asked me three weeks ago will the queen do this i would have said no because it's like presupposing his guilt before he's been proven of doing anything wrong. And let's be clear, he maintains his innocence. But I think, as we've just discussed in the last 10 minutes, there are no good options going forward.

And all of them would have overshadowed the Queen's jubilee. They might still, because we'll still be talking about it as this case proceeds. But at least now he's doing it as a private citizen and he's doing it without his, you know, Royal highness title. And, you know, the royal family's trying to put as much distance between Prince Andrew and the rest of them as they possibly could. OK, Chris, thank you so much for this. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, so before we go today, an update on another part of the story that you may have missed. Ghislaine Maxwell is set to be sentenced for sex trafficking and conspiracy relating to her recruitment of underage girls for Jeffrey Epstein in late June. But her lawyers are arguing that she deserves a

new trial. This after one of the jurors who helped convict her revealed publicly that he himself had been abused as a child. The juror told reporters that what he learned from his own experience helped him persuade other jurors who were having doubts about some of the testimony of Maxwell's accusers. That's all for now. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow.