Front Burner - Sex assault allegation lingers after Joe Biden’s denial

Episode Date: May 6, 2020

Former U.S. vice-president Joe Biden is denying an allegation that he sexually assaulted a Senate staffer twenty-seven years ago. The allegation was made by Tara Reade in March. Reade was among the women who came forward last year to accuse Biden of inappropriate touching. With the 2020 U.S. election coming up, CBC Washington correspondent Paul Hunter reports on how the Democratic Party is responding to the allegation against their presumptive presidential candidate.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Pozzo. No, it is not true. I'm saying unequivocally. It never, never happened. That was Joe Biden, late last week, finally addressing an allegation from former Senate staffer Tara Reid, a woman who says the former vice president sexually assaulted her 27 years ago. I looked up to him. He was like my father's age.

He was this champion of women's rights in my eyes, and I couldn't believe it was happening. It didn't seem, it seems surreal. Today, I'm joined by CBC Washington correspondent Paul Hunter to talk about the allegation and to unpack the ethical and political questions facing the Democratic Party and their presumptive presidential candidate right now. And just a warning, this episode will discuss details of an alleged sexual assault. This is FrontBurner. Hi, Paul. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast again. Hey, Jamie. Glad to be here. So let's start today with Tara Reid. I know that she worked for Joe Biden back in the early 90s,

I believe for about a year as a Senate staffer. How does she describe this alleged sexual assault? Sure. 27 years ago, she was indeed a staff assistant in Joe Biden's office. And, you know, at the time, Biden was a long way away from even the vice presidency, but he was a big time, prominent, powerful senator. And Madam President, we have predators on our streets that society has, in fact, in part because of its neglect, created. And Reid's job included, for example, supervising interns. She says that one day she was asked to take something to Joe Biden, I think it was a gym bag or something, in one of the buildings up on Capitol Hill. And it's when she did this, she says, Joe Biden sexually assaulted her.

And I remember he, it happened all at once. The gym bag, I don't know where it went, I handed it to him, it was gone and then his hands were on me and underneath my clothes. That he pushed her up against a wall in one of those buildings, put his hand up her skirt, groped her until she pushed him away. Her skirt groped her until she pushed him away. He went down my skirt, but then up inside it. And he penetrated me with his fingers.

Her memory of the event is quite detailed. The kinds of clothes that she was wearing, that the wall, she remembers, felt cold. i was wearing like a skirt and you know business skirt but i wasn't wearing stockings it was kind of a hot day that day and i was wearing heels and i remember my legs had been hurting from the marble you know of the capital and she remembers some of the things that he said for example she says he said when she tried to push him away he said come on man i heard you liked me, when she tried to push him away. He said, come on, man. I heard you liked me. And later when she did push him away, that Biden turned to her and said, you're nothing to me.

And then he just looked at me. He goes, you're nothing. Nothing. And he was right. That's how people treated me. That's how the office treated me. And I have no platform. I am no one.

And to him, I'm nothing. Reid says she was shaken by it and broke down in tears. But I knew it was bad because he was so angry. Like when he left, like I could feel, you know how when you know someone's angry, they don't necessarily say anything. Like he smiles when he's angry and you can just feel it emanating from him. You know, I know that these are relatively new accusations against Biden. These accusations were made on a left of center podcast relatively recently. But Tara Reid was also part of a group of women who came forward last year to accuse Biden of inappropriate touching or like generally, I don't know what could be called sort of creepy workplace behavior. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. How did

these allegations or those allegations factor into this story? Right. So Joe Biden a year ago was basically emerging as a likely front runner for the Democratic nomination for the White House. Joe Biden has broken away from the pack. He's at 39 percent of potential Democratic voters. They say he is their top choice for the nomination. Pretty good chance, in other words, of ultimately becoming president. So indeed, a number of women came forward with their stories of this creepy behavior by Biden over the years, putting his hands on women's shoulders, getting a little too close into personal space, hugs that went on too long. After a former Democratic Nevada lawmaker alleged he made her feel uneasy, gross and confused during a 2014 encounter. Very unexpectedly and out of nowhere, I feel Joe Biden put his hands on my shoulders, get up very close to me from behind, lean in, smell my hair and then plant a slow kiss

on the top of my head. Basically stuff that made women feel uncomfortable. So Tara Reid was among those in that group of women who came forward a year ago and told that kind of thing. But at that time, she made no mention of the groping. In fact, she didn't say anything publicly until this spring. Now, Biden addressed all of that a year ago. He didn't apologize, but he did say things, you know, times have changed. I get it.

And I always tried to be in my career. I've always tried to make a human connection. That's my responsibility. I think I shake hands. I hug people. I grab men and women by the shoulders and say, you can do this. That kind of stuff just isn't on anymore. Won't do it anymore.

It was just him being him in effect. No harm intended. And he knows now that he's got to be different and more respectful. Society has changed, is basically what he was saying. And now it's all about taking selfies together. You know, social norms have begun to change. They've shifted.

And the boundaries of protecting personal space have been reset. And I get it. And so it was a year after that, on that podcast you talk about that Reid's full story came out. Right. And this is when she makes these allegations of sexual assault. And does she talk about why she's coming forward now with these allegations of sexual assault? Effectively that she just didn't feel comfortable.

I mean, that's part of the people who question some of the things and some of the timings and some of the actions that she's taken. They raise that. Why didn't you then? with allegations of sexual assault against anybody. It's a complicated thing to do for fear of repercussion, for fear of things being said about you. But her bottom line was that she didn't feel comfortable until now. Right. And essentially, she would have been alone a year ago because the remainder of the allegations against Biden were really about this sort of inappropriate, touching or generally

sort of creepy workplace behavior. And she is also alone today. She is the only woman that is making sexual assault allegations against Biden. And I want to talk to you a little bit about sort of some of these inconsistencies or criticisms that she's received. But first, can we talk about some of what has bolstered her claims? Recently, there's news of a neighbor of Tara Reid's former neighbor speaking out to say that Reid had told her about the alleged assault and a friend who spoke to the media anonymously. And what do we know about these accounts? We know this much, that the value of what you call contemporaneous evidence is not small. Effectively, it strengthens the case of anyone making allegations at any time long after the fact. It means, for example, that you probably wouldn't be making something up years later out of spite or, in this

case, political considerations. So corroboration of a story from back in the day is huge. And there are a few people who have given evidence corroborating Tara Reid's story, among them the neighbor that you talk about, a woman that lived near her, not precisely at the time, but a couple of years later, who says that Reed, so we're talking mid-1990s at this point, that Reed told her she'd been assaulted by Joe Biden. She names him. And the neighbor says she believes, the neighbor who, by the way, identifies as a Biden supporter, says she believes Tara Reed. Reed's former neighbor, Linda Lacoste, telling CNN this week, somebody putting their hands up your skirt, that's something you don't forget. And others have

had versions of corroboration, but mostly with less detail. So it gets complicated. Other people that she's said to have told. Her brother was interviewed by the Washington Post, and he said that she told him, he was vague about it though, but that she told him that she'd been harassed in Biden's office and kind of left it at that. Quote, I heard that there was a gym bag incident and that he was inappropriate. I remember her telling me he said she was nothing to him. And then the interview ended. And then the brother contacted the Post again sometime later and said, oh, I forgot to mention, she also said she was groped. Which is, say, critics of Tara Reid.

You know, it's unusual, I guess, that someone would forget that key aspect, especially if it's Reid's brother. So there's been varying degrees of corroboration of people who at the time or shortly thereafter heard from Tara Reid. Right, right. And you mentioned there was also this anonymous friend who said that she also gave a pretty detailed description of being sexually assaulted by Biden on Capitol Hill and that the friend advised Reid against filing a police report at the time. Then that was something they were talking about. Then, you know, you mentioned her brother and there have been criticisms around that.

There's also this 1993 Larry King call that's making the rounds, which is supposedly Tara Reed's mother, who has since passed away. You know, this is a he said, she said. Right. And that's another reason why having told this to other people back in the day becomes important now. So what emerges is videotape of a woman calling in to the Larry King, complaining about, you know, quote, problems with a, quote, prominent senator in Washington. Yes, hello. I'm wondering what a staffer would do besides go to the press in Washington. My daughter has just left there after working for a prominent senator and could not get through with her problems at all. And the only thing she could have done was go to the press, and she chose not to do it out of respect for him. Or she had a story to tell, but out of respect for the person she worked for, she didn't tell it.

That's true. The woman isn't identified by name, but is identified by the city where she's calling from, which is the same city that Tara Reid's mother lived in at the time. And indeed, Reid says the voice, certainly it sounds like her mother. The woman is vague, but man, the timing is right on. And there it is on videotape. But it doesn't say sexual assault or the woman doesn't say sexual assault. Right. She's just vaguely referring to problems. Exactly. You talk about he said, she said. So there are sides growing's just vaguely referring to problems. Exactly.

You talk about he said, she said. So there are sides growing on this, on who to believe. Is it, you know, should Tara Reid be believed? Should Joe Biden be believed? That's a complicated bit of video to deal with. The mom is dead. Yeah. And it's also, I think, made sort of more complicated by how this is a little bit of a complex story

in that there were these initial allegations of sexual harassment as part of a larger group, and then the subsequent allegations a year later of sexual assault and digital penetration, like far more, I think it's fair to say, serious accusations. Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. How is Joe Biden responding to all of this? He didn't respond instantly, not personally, and he took heat for that. You know, I think we heard more from people who he had worked with and still works with before we heard directly from Joe Biden.

Biden's staff, for example, from back in the day says, you know, everyone contacted. You know, never once did they hear anything like this. And indeed, they would remember if they had. And that what Tara Reid is saying, say those who worked with Biden for years, is 100 percent counter to the type of it's time for you, Joe Biden, to speak to this. And so he did going on MSNBC to effectively say what his office had already said, but to put himself in front of a camera and to deny it personally. The incident, he said, never happened unequivocally. When she first made the claim, we made it clear that it never

happened. And that's as simple as that. The problem for Biden was that it seemed to take a while for him to get out in front of cameras to say that. I think the thinking at the time was, why give this oxygen? You know, maybe it'll just all go away. Naive, arguably, to think such, especially in the middle of a presidential campaign. And, you know, he also, watching this interview, he talked about how he thinks that these accusations should be investigated, right, by sort of independent sources, by journalists, basically. Believing women means taking the woman's claims seriously. When she steps forward and then vet it, look into it.

Women have a right to be heard and the press should rigorously investigate claims they make. And I know that also much has been made in recent days about like a possible paper trail here. And can you tell me a little bit more about that as well? Yeah, and you're right. Biden has said, investigate, seemingly so confident that there can be no paper evidence, basically. Right. So Tara Reid says she made an official complaint about harassment in the Senate back in the day. So where is that? No one has been able to find the document of that complaint. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means no one has been

able to find it. Reid herself says she doesn't have a copy, which others have noted. It's interesting that you have a variety of documents from that time regarding your employment, but you don't have that seemingly very important document about a complaint against Joe Biden. Joe Biden says he doesn't have it. So where might it be? There is the Senate archives. Joe Biden has said, look in there. The Senate says it legally cannot do that. Okay. And can Biden just, these are his documents, right? Well, this is where we're at now. We don't know. Can Biden say, hey, I'm going to go in? We don't know. So those are sort of staffing documents. The other sort of

pile of documents are his own archive. His personal papers are at the University of Delaware. He donated them to the University of Delaware some time ago. The university says, well, they're under lock and key until after he leaves public office. Biden has argued against, theoretically, Biden could say, well, I give you permission to release them now. Well, that gets complicated fast as well. First off, Biden says, this is a personnel matter we're talking about, if it existed. Personnel matters would not be in these things. These are transcripts of speeches he gave over the years, transcripts of calls with world leaders, et cetera, that kind of stuff. What he's not saying is that what it would also be is basically like a pot of gold for awful research for Republicans in a presidential campaign.

Sure, they would love to get their hands on it. Exactly. And so that's the that's the weird sort of corner he's painted into on that. Let's bring in Tom Perez. And I want to start with Joe Biden. And I want to start with Joe Biden. The most comprehensive investigation of the vice president was when he was vetted by Barack Obama in 2008. I'm very familiar with vice presidential vetting process. They look at everything about you. They looked at the entire history of Joe Biden. Barack Obama trusted Joe Biden.

I trust Joe Biden. I trust Joe Biden. You know, the one thing I've been having a hard time kind of wrapping my head around is like how relevant this is anyways, because Tara Reid has talked about the fact that she believes that she made this complaint, but that the complaint itself wasn't about the sexual assault. It was far more vague and sort of more about the sexual harassment allegation, which she made a year ago. So is this kind of like a red herring? 100%. It strikes me that the merits of this case or how people feel about these allegations will actually be built not on this document, but on like reporting around this on sort of corroborating witnesses and on Tara Reid's story and how people feel about her. Or how people feel about Joe Biden, in a sense, right?

You can believe Tara Reid or not. But for Joe Biden, let's not forget, who has made his brand during this campaign that it is about character, that it is about Donald Trump with his own set of accusations against him is unfit for the presidency and that Biden is not like that. Donald Trump has corrupted the soul of this country.

Donald Trump has pummeled the middle class. Donald Trump is a disaster. And he knows it. He knows I'm going to be able to point it out. That is the essence of his argument against Donald Trump, right? Right. And certainly Biden himself has been a huge proponent of the Me Too movement. He has used the language around Believe Women.

And the Democratic Party also has been a huge supporter and proponent of the Me Too movement. So can we talk about the politics of this for a second? You know, how have prominent party members responded here? I'm thinking Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, you know, Nancy Pelosi. It puts everyone in a complicated corner, doesn't it? Right. The broad answer is the line is if there were bullet points handed out on what to say when asked about the Joe thing. Is I believe Joe, that Tara Reid has been heard, but I believe Joe. I have complete respect for the whole Me Too movement. I have four daughters and one son.

And there's a lot of excitement around the idea that women will be heard and be listened to. There is also due process. And the fact that Joe Biden is Joe Biden. But you're right. This is a party that shouted out women in these circumstances ought to be believed. Joe Biden said that during the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation, right? Not just heard, but believed. She deserves to be treated with dignity. It takes enormous courage for a woman to come forward and the bright lights of millions of people watching and relive something that happened by this election being like no other in memory. This is about Donald Trump, again, with his own checkered past on these things.

Over a dozen women have accused the president of sexual misconduct and assault, including rape. The president says they're all lying. But at the same time, is it pure hypocrisy to have said believe people making accusations and now to say they ought to just be heard? Is it right to hold your nose and vote for Joe Biden anyway, if that's what you truly believe? Let's bring in our next guest, RNC National spokesperson Liz Harrington. The hypocrisy by the mainstream media and Democrats is stunning because there are two very different standards at play. If you're a Republican, no matter if there's no corroborating evidence against you, you'll be treated as guilty. Your name dragged

through the mud. I can't help but think of former Senator Al Franken. You know, he is accused of inappropriate kisses or touches by eight women. And this was like a completely different reaction from inside the party. It was over. They just took him out. And he, you know, had to resign almost immediately. I know in my heart that nothing I have done as a senator, nothing has brought this honor on this institution. And Democrats have wondered ever since if that all happened too quickly. Biden has said his running mate will be a woman. The more than a dozen women that are taking initial look at, there are significantly more of women jockeying for that position.

And so, you know, what kind of new challenges do you think that she will now be faced with because of this allegation? She will be asked about it, and she better have an answer. And I suspect the answer will be that I believe Joe, that Tara Reid has been heard, but I believe Joe. And now let's talk about other things. If I'm going to make a prediction about this campaign on this, it'll be that. That no one is going to want to go down that path very far. It will be an unproven allegation, potentially, throughout the campaign. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have done fairly deep dives into this and have come up neither proving nor disproving what Tara Reid

is saying. So it could well last throughout the campaign that we just don't know. So it gets down to what are you going to believe? Who are you going to believe? So I suppose the big question here is even if people do find her credible, will it even matter? Consider what happened with Donald Trump in 2016. As we've talked about, more than a dozen women, whatever the number is, came out with their stories against Donald Trump. And you know what happened on election day in November 2016? 63 million Americans went out and voted for him anyway. Okay, Paul Hunter, it's going to be a really interesting one. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and we'll talk to you again soon. My pleasure. Some good news to report before we say goodbye.

Lynn Valley Care Center, one of the hardest hit long term care homes in British Columbia, as well as the facility where Canada's first COVID-19 death was recorded, is reportedly out of the woods. According to officials, after 28 days, there are no new cases. The coronavirus outbreak at Lynn Valley is now over, which must be a great relief to those who live and work there and their families. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.