Front Burner - Sex, music and cringe – HBO’s The Idol

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

There’s been a lot of buzz about the latest show to fill HBO’s prestigious Sunday night slot, The Idol. Co-created by a team including Euphoria’s Sam Levinson and Canadian pop-icon the Weeknd, the series follows a pop star played by Lily Rose Depp who’s working on her comeback after a mental health crisis. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts But what was initially sold as a sexy satire of the music industry’s dark underbelly has been panned by critics and mocked on the internet. Today, Vox senior correspondent Alex Abad-Santos and Lucy Ford, a culture writer with British GQ, take us through the series so far and why it’s garnering attention for all the wrong reasons.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Saroja. I just wanted to let you know that there are going to be some spoilers ahead. I just wanted to let you know that there are going to be some spoilers ahead. For decades, some of TV's best programming has been reserved for Sunday nights on HBO.

This started with The Sopranos in 1999. You respected my father and you respect Richard. Those who want respect, give respect. But Sex and the City, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and more recently shows like White Lotus, The Last of Us, and Succession have all occupied that spot. Everything I've done, I've done for my children. So hopes were high when the network announced a new drama focused on the music industry on Sunday nights. new drama focused on the music industry on Sunday nights. Called The Idol, this is a limited series that brings together creators including Euphoria director Sam Levinson and Abel Tesfaye, who's better known as Canadian pop icon The Weeknd. Well, the show launched earlier this month and the reviews, they are not good.

Rolling Stone's review reads, and I quote, good. Rolling Stone's review reads, and I quote, nasty, brutish, feels longer than it is, and way, way worse than you'd have anticipated. Critic Robert Daniels called it crude, gross, and sexist. And the Times UK wrote, it's not in on the joke. It is the joke. The season finale airs this Sunday, and the show is sitting at a rating of 22% on Rotten Tomatoes. So today, I am joined by two guests who have been following the show, Alex Abad-Santos, a senior correspondent with Vox, and Lucy Ford, a culture writer with British GQ. Today, they are going to take us through the series so far, what it says about the music industry, and whether the dismal reviews miss the point.

Alex and Lucy, I'm so glad that you're here. Hello and welcome. Hey, thanks for having me. Hi, thanks for having me as well. So Alex, maybe you could start us off. There are lots of folks who won't have seen the show yet, or not the whole thing. Maybe briefly, bare bones, you could give us an idea of what the story is here. So the story of the idol written by and show run by Sam Levinson, creator of Euphoria, and also The Weeknd, aka Abel Tesfaye, as his non-Weeknd name, is about, I guess, the downfall and downward spiral of a pop star.

And it's kind of like she meets this guy who might not be that good. His name is Tedros Tedros. The pop star, for whatever reason, is named Jocelyn. I'm not sure how a Jocelyn would be rising to, I guess, the top of music fame with the name Jocelyn. But she's supposed to be our Britney, our Rihanna, our Beyonce. And we're supposed to witness what happens when pop stars go bad. You mentioned there that The Weeknd

has this character, Tedros Tedros. He is supposed to be one of the anchoring stars of the show. Give me a quick rundown of that character. So Tedros Tedros is a man with a rat tail who owns a club in Los Angeles. And for whatever reason, he's supposed to be this super charismatic, low-key

kind, maybe a cult leader. Also a music producer. He is a man of multi-talents. I'm not sure which ones he's good at, which ones he's bad at. But he wants to make music with Jocelyn while also kind of seducing her. And I don't know if any of it is believable or if any of this is actually... I mean, the suspension of disbelief is strong when it comes to Tedros Tedros. I was just reading some of those negative reviews that have come out. The Internet is full of them all over social media, also in the press. But actually, the negative press started well before the show was on anybody's screens. Lucy, what was that all about?

Yeah, this show had a lot of excitement. It had been, you know, in the works for a long time. And a few months before it was set to premiere, there was this big report from Rolling Stone about problematic behavior on set. That sort of was a lot of things really, but it kind of was condensed down to a massive overhaul in terms of the story and the shooting schedule. They got rid of the female director, Amy Simots, and Sam Levinson sort of stepped in. He co-created the show, but he stepped in as the director and supposedly overhauled a lot of the story. a lot of the story. So a lot of stuff that had been shot is now on the cutting room floor. And a lot of stuff that we see on screen that is probably the most controversial,

it seems, is the stuff that was added in. I mean, that's a huge turnaround for a production. It was 80% finished and then this massive change. Is there any reason for that? The line from the Rolling Stone piece is that Sam Levinson and The Weeknd, who again, co-created the show, the logline is that they were worried it was veering too much into a female perspective, which is a very interesting point of view. What does that even mean? When your main character is a woman, it seems strange to be concerned about her perspective. But yeah, so that was the sort of line that traveled the furthest about um what they changed as a result and i thought we don't really know um it's been very cloaked in terms of what got changed what didn't amy simons herself has like not spoken about it so a lot of it is speculation but yeah it was massive as far as we can tell it was a

massive overhaul like what does that even mean? Like, does every female have the same idea of like what this is supposed to be? Like, that is, women are not a monolith. This is absolutely nuts. I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that cast members, including Lily Rose Depp, have denied the allegations that came out in the Rolling Stone piece. I just want to say that, you know, of course, it's always a little sad and disheartening to see mean, false things said about somebody that you really care about and that you know is not like

that. And yeah, it wasn't reflective at all of my experience shooting the show. I want to talk a little bit about Sam Levinson at the helm of this production. Alex, what we're really watching here is that he's also a Nepo baby. His dad is Oscar winning director Barry Levinson. He's known for Rain Man, for Bugsy, for Good Morning Vietnam. So like Lily Rose Depp, he comes to this with a great deal of comfort in the world of celebrity, in the world of fame and money. And he is best known in his own career for Euphoria. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how that show has been received.

I mean, Euphoria is basically a show about high school, but it stars Zendaya, who is extremely talented, always wins all the awards for Euphoria. But like these are like 28 year olds playing like 16 year olds. And they're all like there's a lot of like, I guess, lascivious, maybe kind of scandalous outfits that are on there. It's a lot of cleavage, a lot of sex, a lot of drugs that happen, a lot of violence that happens. And it's shot really beautifully. It's shot like a music video. But I think one of the things about Euphoria is that a lot of people just say, it's just vibes, no thoughts. The dialogue doesn't really matter. It's all about image. And then with Sam Levinson, I think the image often tends to be of the female form and a lot of boobs. And you're just like, well, again, with the idol, it's like he made another show

that is, again, very nipple and breast forward. And you're like, well, is this a thing that he just likes? Or is he trying to actually tell a story? Maybe both. Maybe this is the only way Sam Levinson can tell a story. It seems to be a pattern that seems to be arising. Lucy, you wrote a piece in GQ that speaks to exactly this. And you described one of the scenes as the worst sex scene in history. And I think you were referring to a scene at the end of episode two. The weekend's character is sitting at a distance from Jocelyn. She's lying on a bed. She's blindfolded.

And he starts talking dirty to her while she touches herself. What was it that went off in your mind as you watched that? What was it that went off in your mind as you watched that? I just I watched the sex scene and I found myself sort of pacing my room like a caged animal because I was just so stressed watching it. And mostly I just thought it was kind of unbelievable that a show in 2023 was airing a sex scene like the one that we see in that episode. sex scene like the one that we see in that episode because to me it just feels I feel like this show or potentially Sam Levinson and The Weeknd think the show is like really innovative and really transgressive and it was just the most classic media trope which is kind of exploiting a woman and oh you know Lily Rose Depp is naked basically the entire time the weekend is not at all and she is seen to be having an absolutely wonderful time with this guy who is just saying the most unsexy commands at her

that to me feel really disingenuous to any woman who's supposedly going through a sexual awakening like the kind of stuff that the weekend is saying and it is the most basic level um juvenile straight man and stuff that you would see in porn the idea that this character who is set up to be an already very sexual and sexually free woman would get off on it to me felt just so disingenuous and yeah, it just it really felt like they were trying to shock but had no idea how to do it in a way that wasn't just the most tired trope in media, which is getting a woman naked. But see, here's the really interesting thing. First of all, Lily Rose Depp has said that she was never exploited in the making of this show. She feels quite strongly that the nudity makes sense for the character. The occasional bareness of the character physically mirrors the bareness that we get to see emotionally in her. I've never felt more involved in those kinds of conversations and I've never felt... We are hardly new to lots of sex and nudity on HBO, particularly in this Sunday time slot where everybody kind of

gathers around their television for the next episode. And this goes back to True Blood, to Sex and the City, which now feels incredibly vanilla alongside shows that we're seeing now, Game of Thrones, for example. So these shows in their moment, hugely criticized for gratuitous sex scenes. But at the same time, they were also well received. There seemed to be a conversation. It would develop over time. Alex, why isn't that sex and nudity as glue working for the idol? I mean, you bring up a great point, which is like HBO has kind of trained us all to be very much like in tune with like this Sunday show, right? it's if you if it's sunday and it's hbo like you it's gonna be a good show and i so i think we were primed for that like we went from white lotus in

succession to this right i think like with those with the shows that you like previously mentioned there was a point of view like true blood it was supposed to be the whole idea of vampires you would suck each other's blood then you would get completely horny for each other. And Alan Ball would just be like, okay, well, here's what that fantasy looks like. Here's what it looks like if you're actually attracted to a vampire. And it was a hot scene. And then I think in Game of Thrones, I think you see a little bit of like, and it had the same kind of criticism. They were just like, well, why is everyone, if this is a show about dragons why are all the women

nude and then you see like game of thrones actually correct that in the later seasons and be like okay well we'll show some like male nudity here too it's more equal now and i think like even with like uh big little lies i think the sex in that in that show is like very much like it's it's it's a portrayal of abuse and i think like there is a point of view when you look at all these shows that HBO has put on, I feel like there is a time and place and I think sex can tell a story. But I don't think, I think that's completely absent. And given Sam Levinson's track record, it seems like it's just a fancy versus a storytelling device or any kind of point of view. So that brings us to the question of intention. You have Sam Levinson and The Weeknd saying that they were using the template of Paul Verhoeven, you know, who made Basic Instinct and Showgirls,

that brand of 90s satire as their inspiration. And Verhoeven's films are really meant to make audiences very uncomfortable. And I kind of guess that all three of us are in this, watching the idol feeling very uncomfortable. And the idea of those films, Basic Instinct and Showgirls, was to acknowledge sexism and violence in the world that we didn't really want to look at.

So there's sort of service to this bigger message there. So maybe you could argue that the idol is brutal because it's telling us true stories about what life in the music industry and life in celebrity in general is like. Lucy, what do you think? Do you think that the idol's creators are intentionally shining that really uncomfortable light on the things that we don't want to talk about and we're all just having a really bad reaction? I think that's what they think they're doing. But I think if most people are reacting in a certain way, it kind of shows that it's not working. And I think something that I feel about the idol, and I think about most anything involving sort of like gratuitous sex in it, you know, explicit scenes is like, if you take out the sex with the story still makes sense. sense. I think if you take out a lot of the sex, the story still is very much the same. And that's probably because we're not really getting much about what that sex is for. You don't see why

Lily Rose Steps, Jocelyn is so sort of mesmerized by this sex. You don't get any sense of like why this sex in particular is sort of like blinding her to all of the red flags. It just seems like they've sacrificed a lot of the context around it to include the sex. And I don't want to sound like I'm a weekend hater, but I don't think he's a good enough actor to get across a lot of the minute details that he's supposedly trying to get across. And I think that that's where it's falling flat, because you're just not getting any of the intention. So while I think that's what they think they're doing, it's just not coming across on screen. Okay, a great big raised eyebrow from Lucy.

What about you, Alex? What do you think about the intention here? I mean, okay, so this is kind of silly, but I've always compared this, like, whenever I saw, when I first saw the show, and I've, like, been watching the show, and maybe this is just my gay little chicken brain that loves musicals, but I always compare it to Phantom of the Opera. I think if you're watching the show, to me, it's basically the musical adaptation, Andrew Lloyd Webber's mega musical Phantom of the Opera. It just closed on Broadway. It went for like 35 years.

And basically, it's about this girl who's singing in the opera, and she's just visited by this mysterious dude. And he starts like has this psychosexual affair with her. And he's basically like, yeah, if you do some like dark stuff, you can be a better singer. Obviously, he does a little bit of manipulation. He kind of like, basically Nancy Kerrigan's one of the one of the leading opera stars. He's basically like, like well if I give you this like dark part of yourself you can tap into some real art and about and then like learn

who you are and that's that's no that is basically the idol like Jocelyn is the and it's like the starlet the Phantom of the Opera that's Ted Tedros. And they're basically using sex as this idea or sex as this vehicle to get to some like, I guess, quote unquote, truer art, which is just hiding inside Jocelyn. But everything that both of you are talking about, the use of sex, the getting into trauma as a catalyst for the deeper, more authentic you. Those conversations do really happen in the music industry. So I'm wondering if some of this is about the execution. And Lucy, you were just talking about The Weeknd's performance. I also read it as pretty flat and dead-eyed, kind of scary sometimes because of the shadowy lighting. But what we maybe needed was a really charismatic soul who made us believe he had this cultish control over people. And it sounds like you're not entirely convinced. I just don't know if it's, I don't

know if the material is there for them to work with, or whether they've left so much unsaid in the hope that the vibe would get them going. A bit like what you were saying about euphoria alex like if in the absence of like a lot of contextual narrative there has to be some really solid acting and it's just not coming through i think like in the in the last few episodes i think that the weekend has his character has come out a lot more like he seems a lot more vulnerable and he's breaking more but you have to stick through the first two episodes to get there and I think a lot of people haven't. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization.

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Alex, as we look at this, The Weeknd, I mean, obviously, he's one of the biggest musicians in the world. I'm wondering, though, as we take the character of Tedros Tedros, this nightclub owner who suddenly has control over this huge music star, where do the lines blur between that character and The Weeknd, the artist? Well, I think it's hard to cleave away, like, what is The Weeknd's input and what isn't. Because I think when you look at The Weeknd, The Weeknd is an artist that has changed himself basically every single album release. And it's just like, well, how much of this is you? How much of this?

I think that is one of the compelling questions. I think people want to know what The Weeknd, aka Abel Tesfaye, what his ideas are about pop stardom. Because I think also when you look at pop stardom, it's all about artifice. It's all about the image you put out. A pop song is probably written by 35-year-old men for people in their 20s to sing to the loves of their lives who are also 20. That is the general idea of a pop song. Taylor Swift, not included, but you know what I mean, right? And so there's all these layers of artifice about who this is really for and what an actual artist is. And you're just like, well, I would love to hear The Weeknd's thoughts about that. But I think that might be a documentary or that might be some kind of memoir and not a Sam Levinson-fueled HBO prestige series. Something else that's happening here is we get to hear a lot of music in the show. Jocelyn's big hit.

I'm so reluctant to say this out loud. I actually have been pulled into the universe of this song simply on repeat. Listen, world class sinner. I'm a freak. Ends up being the central song. It's so good. It's really good. It's so good.

Oh, no. I feel pulled in. I can't seem to resist the vortex that is that song. This is very A Star Is Born, you know, in A Star Is Born where Lady Gaga's character gets given a bad song and you watch it and you're like, this is actually a really great song. And you're watching it and you're like, this is supposed to suck, but I'm vibing.

Oh my gosh, and the lyrics are so good. It's like, give is supposed to suck, but I'm vibing. Oh my gosh. And the lyrics are so good. It's like, give me a fast car, take off all my clothes. I want to, I'm like, I'm a stallion or I'm a Mustang. And it's just like, it's like, it's like the most brainless lyrics that you've ever, like, it's like the worst parts of every pop song. I'm just a freak, yeah. You know I want it bad. And that's the craziest part, because it's just like you, ironically, they made this song to be this boring song, right?

Like they made it to be like this clunker. Like it's like, look how hollow this is. And it's just like, people love it. Like if you were going to make a critique about pop music, how did you accidentally make one of the best bops of the last like 10 years i think that's one of the the biggest disconnects for the show for me is that like i don't really know what we're supposed to think about the music in it because it's kind of making us making us try to believe that world class center is is hollow and bad and actually the stuff she's making with uh Tedros is is good but also uh it's not like they're not making good music it's embarrassing so you it like the narrative is getting really muddled because

you're a bit like oh wait world class center is a lot better than what he's making, but she seems so much more passionate about music that's also really, really bad. It's just, it's very confusing. I mean, I'm having a gleeful, joyful time finally getting to bond with other people and go through the experience of watching this thing. But I want to, aside from all of the negative things, I have to confess that there are a

couple of moments that I really did love. There is a beautiful scene where Divine and Susanna's son are together. So Divine is playing the big label music manager and Susanna's son is this kind of nymphette and Susanna's son starts singing her life story to Divine. And Divine's reactions are of someone who is truly hearing the beauty and vulnerability in this music. I was very touched by that scene. Something about the way it was filmed, the fragility of it all. It felt like a standout moment in the chaos of everything else. Alex, were there any redeeming moments for you

in the show? Well, I think what's kind of fascinating about you picking that scene is that in the same breath, Dwayne goes and calls the other manager, Haim, played by Hank Azaria, and is like, hey, there's actually Tedros Tedros has a trove of talented people here. hey, there's actually Tedros Tedros has a trove of talented people here. We should get rid of Tedros Tedros, take all these people, manage them, make a ton of money off of them. And I think that goes back to what my favorite thing about this entire series is, and I think the best part of the show is,

is that there's a show about handlers and managers and everyone in the record label. And it's a satire it's a comedy and it's like starring like jane adams is the head record label exec and she's doing amazing work and it's about how these people all kind of like like they seem like they're very very good to the pop star jocelyn but it's like they're all kind of seeking like how to how to like get themselves ahead because jocelyn they're basically like vampire squid like they're all kind of seeking like how to how to like get themselves ahead because jocelyn they're basically like vampire squid like they're just here they're they want jocelyn to survive but ultimately like they're more i guess obsessed with like their own survival their own success and i think that is an amazing show yeah i want to just completely agree with alex because

that is that's the show to me. And the stuff that's good is the stuff about sort of like the succubus nature of the music industry and how you can want someone to do well, but also want to make money from them. And how do you navigate that when you have this pop star who's had a nervous breakdown and is clearly not doing well, but also you need her for your bottom line and that comes in so many different forms it goes from like the top of live nation and the top of her record label all the way down to her live-in assistant you know and how all of those different parts of the music industry are centered around one fragile person

and to me that's the missed opportunity of the show, because I think The Weeknd has like incredibly valuable insight into what the music industry must be like as someone at the absolute top of their game. But do you think that there is an opportunity? I mean, on Sunday, we're all going to watch or some of us anyway, we'll watch the final the episode number five. Do you think there's any chance that we're just not in on the joke or just not in on the story here? That there's some way to turn this all around? Oh my God. Can I?

Is the episode going to make me unwatch and make me misremember and not remember the last four or five episodes? Is TV capable of that? Can you? Is it going to be like the men in black like mind wipe? Am I just going to not remember anything that I've seen? because i think that is the only way that you could redeem the show i think the craziest thing what we haven't mentioned yet is that people are imagining this urban legend that this show is actually six episodes and hbo cut it off at five because it was so bad like this is going around the internet i think that's the thing like even in

this wild west world of streaming that we're in currently where things are getting like chopped and taken away and whatever like no streamer is cutting a series with one episode to go it's it's basically is what it is is that they just made it five episodes and didn't tell anyone which is part of the restructure like it originally was supposed to be six and now it's five and that happened just somewhere in the middle you know what i mean and it originally was supposed to be six and now it's five. And that happened just somewhere in the middle. You know what I mean? And, but people seem to be really like

praying for the show's downfall. And I think it's like, you take a big swing, you have a big miss ultimately. And it's like, you can't premiere the show at Cannes. You can't say it's going to be the biggest show of the summer and it's going to like shock everyone. And it just be none of those things. And I expect everyone to kind of not like revel in its downfall.

Well, meanwhile, you, the two of you, me, and many other people gathering on Sunday against our best judgment. But it sure is fun to talk about this show, even though it hasn't maybe been everything that it promised to be. Thank you so much for hanging out with me and bonding over it for a little while. Thanks for having me. No, thank you as well. Thank you for asking.

And that's all for this week. Front Burner was produced by Derek Vanderwyk, Lauren Donnelly, Elaine Chao, Joyita Sengupta, Tamara Kandaker, and Jodi Martinson. Our sound design was by Sam McNulty. Our intern is Rachel DeGasperis, and our music is by Joseph Chabison. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Locos, and I'm Saroja Coelho. Thanks so much for listening. FrontBurner is back next week.

Front Burner is back next week.