Front Burner - Sexual misconduct plagues military amid Vance, McDonald investigations

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

Today, CBC’s Murray Brewster examines the sexual misconduct allegation that led Admiral Art McDonald, Canada’s top military commander, to step aside, as well as the ongoing investigation into his predecessor, Gen. Jonathan Vance.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I'm deeply sorry. I want you to know that I will do all that I can to support you, to stop these unacceptable acts from happening, and to put into practice our guiding principle, respect the dignity of all persons.

So this is Admiral Art McDonald giving his first address in January as the top commander of Canada's military, where he apologized for racism and misconduct in the force's ranks. giving his first address in January as the top commander of Canada's military, where he apologized for racism and misconduct in the force's ranks. Creating a respectful environment is a responsibility that we all share. And I believe that together we can eliminate racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and discrimination from our ranks. Fast forward a month, and Admiral MacDonald has now stepped aside from his post as Chief of the Defence Staff. He's being investigated for an allegation of sexual misconduct.

The guy he took over from was General Jonathan Vance, who is also currently being investigated for allegations of sexual misconduct. I'm Jamie Poisson, and today my colleague Murray Brewster, CBC senior defence writer, is here to talk about the crumbling sense of trust that the Canadian military can deal with this problem. And a warning, this episode contains multiple allegations of sexual violence. Hi Murray, thanks so much for being here today. It's always so great to have you. Hey Jamie, good to talk to you. So Admiral Art MacDonald, Canada's top military commander, has stepped aside while this investigation is ongoing. And what do we know about the allegations against him sources have told us that the military's investigation of Admiral MacDonald relates to an alleged incident in 2010. It was apparently aboard HMCS Montreal during a party where alcohol was served, and that the investigation was started within days of Admiral MacDonald becoming the commander of,

the top commander of the Canadian military, and that the allegation involves inappropriate behavior with a junior female officer. We don't have a lot of details about specifically what happened. The military and the Defense Department will not comment on it because they say that it's an ongoing investigation. Okay. And you mentioned HMCS Montreal. This is a ship, right? It is a frigate.

Yes. And the Montreal was involved at that time in the summer of 2010 in an annual northern exercise called Operation Nanook. So it would have moved along the east coast of Canada, stopped in a couple of different ports, but then also taken part in a multinational exercise in the Arctic. Do we know if this alleged incident took place while the ship was out to sea? It strikes me that this could be a very isolating environment where someone might not be able to leave if something happened to them. We're not entirely sure when the incident took or the alleged incident

took place, but the standard practice normally is that parties and celebrations, et cetera, normally don't happen unless the ship is alongside somewhere. Alcohol at that time was served aboard the ship. It is interestingly enough, not long after this incident, but in response to a number of other incidents where alcohol was involved, the Navy actually cracked down on the consumption aboard ship and has limited it severely. And so has Admiral MacDonald, who is very new to this role as the top military commander in this country, has he responded publicly at all to this allegation and to the investigation into this allegation?

No, he has not responded publicly. The Defense Department would not answer our queries in the sense that they said that they wouldn't discuss the ongoing investigation or characterize it in any way. discuss the ongoing investigation or characterize it in any way. What is interesting though about this case with Admiral MacDonald is that a number of media outlets were tipped off to the investigation on Wednesday night. And both myself and David Pugliese over at the Ottawa citizen began making telephone calls asking officials to confirm. But the moment the military knew that we were looking into this, Admiral MacDonald voluntarily stepped aside from his post. And that is something the minister made clear on the public record at the end of last week, was that that Admiral McDonald didn't know about the investigation into his alleged misconduct until Wednesday night when he

volunteered to step aside. So look, like the fact that Admiral McDonald is stepping aside just a month after he stepped into the role, I mean, that's a big story on its own, right? You and I would be talking no matter what. But this is happening while McDonald's predecessor, General Jonathan Vance, is also being investigated by the NIS, by the military police, over sexual misconduct allegations. And there's this parliamentary investigation related to the Vance allegations as well. And I want to get into those allegations with you more in a moment. But before, there's some context that I think is really important to understand first. And that's this program that General Jonathan Vance launched in 2015. It's called Operation Honor. And Murray, what is Operation Honour?

Operation Honour is the military's campaign to stamp out sexual misconduct and sexual violence within the ranks. It was launched in 2015. General Vance has been its champion. From a stupid joke to stuff on your wall that shouldn't be there, to more aggravated and harmful acts, physical acts. All of it's wrong. All of it counts. And all of it has to stop. It was launched in response to a report, an independent report that was done

by former Supreme Court Justice Madame Marie Deschamps. And her report in 2015 found that there was a highly sexualized, hyper-masculine culture within the military that was contributing to sexual misconduct. The problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault in the armed forces is real. Deschamps found that even today, victims of abuse fear they'll suffer if they complain. She says many of those victims who did report an offence said their experiences were atrocious, and she found a broadly held perception in the lower ranks

that those in the chain of command either condone inappropriate sexual conduct or are willing to turn a blind eye. So we can go over the last six years. There's been very little progress in stamping out misconduct. If you look at the statistics from Statistics Canada, because both the military and Stats Canada have been tracking complaints, and the needle has barely budged when it comes to the number of incidents.

Part of that can be attributed to complaints that you hear from critics, which say that the campaign itself has focused largely on punitive measures. So if the commander of the military issues an order, stop doing this. He or she or whoever is in charge expects an order to be obeyed, but that's not the way it's gone. I gave a direct order to the armed forces when I first took command. It stops now. Maybe they didn't recognize it as a military order. I don't know. And there have also been concerns about Operation Hon Honor in the sense that the independence of the ability of alleged victims to report. So, for example, if someone wants to report harassment in the military, there are severe or could potentially be severe repercussions for their career.

That is why many people have been reluctant to come forward. So it has been argued by Madame Deschamps and by others that the body to which they are to report misconduct should be completely and totally independent from the military, the military chain of command, so that people will feel comfortable to be able to tell their stories. That is something that both the former conservative government and the current liberal government have resisted. And in light of the controversies that are going on now about the most senior commanders in the Canadian military,

there is renewed focus and renewed attention to that particular idea of independence. Murray, I know, you know, for the reasons that you just outlined, there are obviously huge hurdles in being able to get a picture of what sexual misconduct and harassment has looked like in the military. But I wonder if you could tell me a bit about what we do know. You know, I know a few years back, you sat through testimony from women and men who were part of a class action lawsuit against the military. And can you tell me what you heard and what it revealed to you? I will say that in almost 37 years of being a journalist, I don't think I have sat through

more traumatic court testimony than what I heard at that. Now, the context for you, Jamie, is that this was the wrap-up of a class action lawsuit that was launched against the federal government by survivors of sexual assault, both men and women, within the forces. Government lawyers argued the armed forces did not owe it to soldiers to protect them from harassment and abuse.

But that aggressive line bothered the prime minister. I've asked the attorney general to follow up with the lawyers to make sure that we argue things that are consistent with this government's philosophy. And before that lawsuit was finally signed off by a federal court judge or the settlement was signed off, victims were allowed to come forward over a three-day period. And what it did was reinforce for me the depth and the breadth of the problem. One of the first stories I ever wrote about the military, focusing on the military and social issues within the military, was the story of Captain Sandra Peron, the first Canadian female combat infantry officer who was brutalized during a training exercise. She was tied to a tree, she was hazed. It was an awful story.

Could you give me some examples of what you heard? There were women who were coming forward who talked about being raped almost immediately upon their arrival at boot camp in training. There were stories of incidents in workplaces, and it was just unbelievable. Right. It just unbelievable. Right. It was unbelievable. And in fact, I would even go as far as to say, and I'm saying this personally, but anyone who is a senior ranking flag officer in the military

should have had to have sat through those three days just to get a sense as to the breadth and the depth of the problem that they were facing. The federal court has approved a 900 million dollar settlement for victims of sexual misconduct within the Canadian armed forces. Today there's some relief like Amy Graham who spent six years in the military. Years she says full of taunts and harassment, even assault. So it was difficult to share my story, but I thought it was worth the sacrifice. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem.

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To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So now that we've talked about the depth and breadth of this, the context around it, now I want to talk more about General Vance here, who, as we talked about, not only launched Operation Honour but really championed it. I will always side with the victim. Always. I will either support the military justice system in dealing with people or administratively remove you from the armed forces. And there are two allegations against him. One is that he made inappropriate comments to a young female subordinate. Contained in documents obtained by Global News, an email from Vance's account raises the prospect of going to a clothing optional vacation destination with her. Vance told Global News

he has no recollection of the exchange. And the main one is that he had an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate. Global News spoke with the soldier who says that she had this relationship with Vance. Her name is Major Kelly Brennan. And tell me, how did Brennan describe the relationship that she had with Vance? Brennan described it as a longstanding relationship with Vance, a close, intimate relationship where she says he often sought her counsel on many things. One of the first meetings, he said something to me that I think has stuck with both of us for the whole 20 years. He described it as ships in the night that clink their lights when they see each other and they know that they're not alone.

The relationship is alleged to have started in 2001 while both of them were serving in Gagetown. She's alleged that he moved her around to different posts so that the two of them could be close together. She has alleged that... invade to him when I was in Wainwright and this military member that I thought was a nice guy invited me to to engage with him in a conference room meet up with him in a conference room not in a bedroom in a conference room and he turned from Dr checkle and Mr Hyde he snapped and he raped me and I fell to the ground. I smashed my head. I lost consciousness. And took that information to General Vance. Basically, she said that he didn't do anything about it. That's part of the allegation. Wow. So she is saying essentially that she was raped by

someone else. And then when she brought it to General Vance, he did nothing? That is essentially the allegation. Nothing. Because he couldn't, he said. He couldn't. Why couldn't he? I was telling him. I was the dirty secret. He couldn't defend me. Then people would know about us. And I will tell you, Jamie, in when you talk to members of the military about what bothers them the most about what they heard from Major Brennan that is the

aspect that is the aspect because it speaks to it speaks to leadership. Now again General Vance has not had his say he responded very briefly to the very first global news story, but then has not. CBC News has reached out to him, and he's not answering any of the comments or any of the allegations while the investigation is underway. I saw this interview with Major Brennan. She also talked about how she felt like she was unable to say no to General Vance at some point during this long relationship. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that? Well, it speaks to the power dynamic because General Vance was an officer on the way up. At times, she was his subordinate. And for that reason, she would have probably felt

enormous pressure not to rock the boat. On a personal level, consensual meaning, was I participating in it? Yes. Could I say no to him? No. And the reason why I say that is because if he rang me on the phone or if he texted me, I was obliged to get back to him. If he asked to see me, I had to drop tools and see him. Right. And so, as you mentioned, Vance has responded somewhat to all of this. I just want to note again, he has told Global News that the two dated, but he denies an intimate relationship with Brennan while she was under his command. And she, of course, disputes that. So, Marie, for people who have been pushing for a long time to change the culture around sexual misconduct within the military, you know, something else that also sticks out to me is that when Admiral McDonald was sworn in in January, he gave this really heartfelt apology to members of the military who had experienced racism and discrimination and misconduct and promised changes. In today's security environment, it isn't enough to do great things to get outcomes.

Equally as important is how we do them. And when we show our work in this regard, that defines who we are. Racism is, of course, the military's other big culture problem. And so it strikes me that both McDonald and Vance, they have said all the right things when it comes to changing these deeply embedded cultural issues. But if they're now both being accused of being part of the military's culture problem themselves, then what hope is there about how committed anyone is to actually changing these problems? That's a really good question. It has been a devastating credibility blow for the military and Operation Honour to have these two most senior commanders in the Canadian military under investigation in this manner. The government, the line that the Prime

Minister has used, the Defence Minister has used, is that this is a sign that the system is working and that no matter what your rank, you're going to be held accountable if you stepped out of line. I'm Minister Sajjan. Good to see you as always. Thank you for making the time. I can assure you and all Canadians that I would never turn a blind eye to anything like this, how seriously we take any allegation. When I say that rank, regardless of rank and regardless of position, how seriously we take things, that's exactly what we do. What they don't talk about is how members of the military view this as a betrayal. The other word I've heard is disappointed.

But there is another camp that says that they're not surprised because there's a culture at work, a culture of exceptionalism, alpha dominance, a culture of impunity. Major Donna Rigadel joins us now from Ottawa. I know that I personally felt, and I've reached out to other people that are in our victim support committee, we all just felt it's just exhausting.

We're so tired. A lot of them felt defeated. They were encouraged by Operation Honour, and this is just kind of a blow to that confidence. So I do want to ask you about one more thing before we say goodbye today. When it comes to accountability here, there are two military investigations. We talked about the one into Admiral McDonald. There was also one into Vance, and they are looking for violations of the military code, or they could possibly end in criminal charges. But there is also a discussion about

a wider independent government investigation, similar to what just happened with the Governor General. And so there are a few things for us to watch out for. But I want to talk to you about an ongoing review at play here. This is an ongoing parliamentary committee investigation into the Vance allegations. And there is now this big question about who knew what when being explored here. This is a question that Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has not directly responded to, right? And can you tell me about what's happening there? Well, this week, Jamie, could be very significant in the life of the Parliamentary Committee's investigation because there is the possibility that former military ombudsman Gary Walborn will be testifying.

And he is considered to be the key as to who knew what and when. We have reported that Walborn had a falling out with the defense minister in a private meeting on March 1st, 2018, where he had raised concerns about possible sexual misconduct by General Vance. And how the minister handled that by handing it off to the Privy Council office, what he could or should have done, has been a matter of debate. The defense minister has not said what took place in that meeting. He's citing the confidentiality that goes between ombudsman and minister. But it could very well be that Gary Walborn will tell the whole world what he knows and what he doesn't know about the concerns that were raised about the personal life of General Vance. Okay, so possibly some very explosive testimony this week for us to look out for. And I know there are even questions that go all the way up to whether or not the Prime Minister knew

anything about this. So tons for us to look out and watch for. And Murray, I hope that you'll keep us posted. You'll come on real soon. I am always happy to talk to you anytime. Okay, thank you so much, Marie. All right. So an update from the U.S. before we say goodbye. Who knows? I may even decide to beat them for a third time, OK? Former President Donald Trump made headlines on Sunday, positioning himself to play a major role in the 2022 midterm elections in a speech at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Orlando. During the speech, Trump also denied that he was considering starting a new political party. We have the Republican Party. It's going to unite and be stronger than ever before. I am not starting a new party. That was fake news. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow.