Front Burner - Should Canadian ISIS fighters be allowed to return home?

Episode Date: February 18, 2019

Two Canadian women have surrendered to US-backed forces after spending years in ISIS-controlled territory. Journalist Michelle Shephard made a documentary about a similar case last year. She says repatriation is a thorny subject for the Canadian government. "It really feels like the Canadian policy has been not to have a policy," says Shephard.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood, or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. As I talk about it, I can feel and smell everything that I did back then.

And he looks down at me, I'm looking up at him, and he says, that's my little girl. It's a 30-year-old homicide where we don't have anybody charged and convicted. Felt like a murderer had gotten away with something. Tell me now, did you have anything to do with the murder? Someone Knows Something with David Ridgen, Season 5. Now available. Go to cbc.ca slash sks. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. About a week ago now, news broke that two women left ISIS-controlled territory in Syria.

And that's news because both are Canadian citizens. They claim they followed their husbands there. But now, as ISIS continues to lose its grip in Syria, the women want out. They surrender to US-backed forces and they're living in a camp in the northeastern part of the country. But there's a huge question mark around these women and dozens of other Canadians who left this country to go to ISIS-occupied territory. Should they be allowed

to come back to Canada? Is it safe? And if they don't come back to Canada, where will they go? I'm joined by Michelle Shepard. She's a national security reporter, and she says we need to sort this out fast. That's today on FrontBurner. Michelle, thanks so much for coming today. Hi, Jamie. So we don't know a ton about these women who surrendered in Syria, but what can we say at this point? Really, I know probably what you know, which is what I read in the most recent report, that two women have left one of the last strongholds that ISIS had. And this is not uncommon.

We know that quite a few Canadians over there. And as ISIS continues to lose their territory, it's almost all but gone now. Many of them are surrendering or being captured. And we should note the CBC has not been able to independently verify the identities of these women, though CNN reports that one of them is from Toronto and the other one is from Alberta, and that both came over, they say, because of their husband. They seem pretty forthcoming in their interviews that they did. Absolutely. I want to talk about this issue more generally, because, you know, as we mentioned, we don't know a ton about the women in the news this week. But we do know a lot more about how this kind of thing happens. And you made a documentary for the CBC

about a woman who left Canada to join ISIS. And can you tell me about her? Sure. So we did a documentary that came out actually a year ago now. And we focused, while it was about a young teenager from Quebec who went over, the film was actually about her mother. And her mother is an incredibly sympathetic figure. She literally had no idea her daughter was going to go. Saida says her daughter became obsessed with the war in Syria and watched hours of graphic footage. These videos are what may have changed my daughter's life. She was 17 or 18 years old when she started watching them.

She was 17 or 18 years old when she started watching them. Since she was always in her room, it's possible she was watching them over and over. She was very vulnerable. She always talked about the children. I think this was what pushed her. You know, she really was drawn to try and do some humanitarian work. Having said that, we don't know what transpired. We don't know how exactly she got over there, who she was in contact with, if there was someone in Montreal she was in contact with,

or if it was directly with somebody over in Syria. But we do know she flew to Turkey and then went across the border, and she got married to a German citizen soon after. And she stayed there. She stayed there and she had two kids. And part of the film was following the mom's journey to try and rescue her daughter, try to get her out of ISIS territory. The interesting thing about this documentary is we actually, we never talked to her. She didn't even know we were

doing the documentary at the time. She was in ISIS territory. When she was in ISIS territory, what was she telling her mom about what it was like there? From the communication she had with her mom, it didn't seem like she knew a lot. And I think this is fairly customary for a lot of the women who go over there. They're kind of kept in the house. They're there basically to have babies. And from what she was telling her mom, we don't know exactly what was happening, but she was quite desperate at times and quite lonely. And she would often call her crying. She had one baby there. She ended up having a C-section where they didn't have any drugs for her.

You can't have an operation without anesthesia. Think of the pain you feel when you hurt yourself. Then think of having an operation where they cut your muscles that rips you up in order to get the baby out. And then they sew you back up. And then she had a second baby as soon as she went into the Kurdish camp, actually. She was pregnant when she fled, eight months. And then she had her second baby in camp.

And that baby would now be about a year old. And when she's telling her mom that she wants to leave, why is she telling her that she wants to leave? I mean, at that point, ISIS was under attack. And she just wanted to come home. She was sick of it. And she wanted to get out. This issue of having children, does it make it more difficult to get out? It's certainly I mean, it was a harrowing journey that she took because she's got a toddler and she's eight months pregnant and you're fleeing in a conflict zone. She had people that helped her and the idea was they were going to turn her over to Kurdish authorities. So she was never trying to, you know, escape per se. She knew she was going

into custody and her mom believed that by going to the Kurds who are, you who are an ally of the Western forces who were fighting ISIS, that would be the best way for her to then get in touch with Canadian officials and get home. If my daughter returns and is found guilty for what she's done, it will be unfortunate. If they send her to prison, they won't just condemn my daughter. They will condemn three people. We finished filming that at the end of 2017, and the film came out January of last year. And I kind of assumed it would be a matter of months before she was brought back to Canada with her two kids. And here we are in January 2019

and she's still one of quite a few Canadians who are in these camps run by the Kurds. And can you tell me a little bit more about these camps? They're kind of like IDP, Internally Displaced Person camps. They're makeshift camps. They weren't supposed to be permanent, but there's an incredible amount of women and children being kept there. I think

it's something like 2,000 in some of these camps. And are the majority of them former ISIS members? They've come out of that territory. So they're not being charged. The Kurds have no courts to charge them. So they're just being held. So when I was speaking with Kurdish officials, they were saying that they really wanted governments to step up and to take responsibility for their own citizens. So this was directly to Canada and all the other countries that had citizens that were there in these camps. And it wasn't just Amina, the girl that we did the documentary about. There were other Canadians even at that time. And when they're in this camp, are they allowed to leave or are they being held against their will?

They're not. So they are being held against their will, but it's not a prison setting. I mean, they're being held with their children. I understand it's pretty sparse. The winter months are really hard. It's difficult to get food and baby formula and a lot of the needs, but it's not a prison per se. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators. With the free Audible app, you can listen anytime, anywhere, whether you're at home, in the car, or out on a jog. The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. Go to www.audible.ca slash cbc to learn more.

So of course there's the story of Amina, who's now in a Kurdish camp. And we also know that these two women who are recently in the news, they're also in Kurdish camp. And these are Canadian citizens who have left and lived in ISIS territory and now want to come back. But I'm wondering if you can help me get a sense of the scope of this issue. Do we know, and I know it's very difficult to do a census on ISIS. There's no census of ISIS, exactly, yeah. But do we have a sense of how many Canadians have left to go to ISIS territory since the

caliphate was established? The numbers are always so hard to pin down, but one that I hear often is about 100. It's probably a little more than that. It's certainly not the hundreds and in some European countries, thousands that went over. I would think probably a good estimate would be about 100, 130, many of whom have been killed. And do we have a sense right now of how many Canadians want to come back here? You know, as the territory of ISIS gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So those who have survived and do want to come back, the latest figure I've heard comes from Alexandra Bain. So she's the director of Families Against Violent Extremism,

and her organization knows of 27 Canadians. Now, the majority of those are children under the age of five. And I think that's really important to distinguish, too, when we're talking about this issue. There are men who are there, there are women who are there, and there are children. And the children are obviously, you know, the innocents and have rights, you know, as Canadians as well. The other difficult thing is we often talk about all these Canadians as a group. But each case is so different. It's difficult for a government because they have to perhaps bring them all back together.

And yet each case is going to be handled differently. Do we have any policy on repatriating these citizens? It's such a gray area. And it really feels like the policy, the Canadian policy has been not to have a policy right now. And to just delay as long as possible. You know, as I said earlier, when we finished this film, I just assumed that she would be brought back fairly quickly. And I understand how incredibly complicated it is. It's absolutely a political hot potato, and there's legal issues, and you're talking about a conflict

zone. But I think we're at the stage now that, you know, the Kurdish officials have been asking for months, if not years, to get these governments to do something. And just recently, the U.S. has asked Canada and other countries to step up. We've been fighting for a long time in Syria. I've been president for almost two years and we've really stepped it up and we have won against ISIS. We've beaten them and we've beaten them badly. We've taken back the land and now it's time for our troops to come back home. So we're really at a point now where Ottawa has to do something. Let's talk a little bit more about the United States. So why has the United States asked Canada and other countries to step up? Can you just elaborate on that for me a little bit more?

I think in terms of timing, it's because of the US withdrawal from Syria. And it just adds another layer of instability to the region. And who knows what's going to happen to these camps. So the US is really echoing what the Kurds have been saying for a while, is if you are a government that has presumably laws and a security service and a court that can deal with and perhaps rehabilitation centers whatever network you have that you can deal with these citizens it's your obligation to help the Kurds out and try and empty some of these camps. And what is the United States doing with their own citizens? They've brought some back. This high school photo of Ibrahim Moussabli,

now 28 years old, shows a young student just starting his life. Federal prosecutors say he was recently picked up by Syrian coalition forces for allegedly providing material support to ISIS. And so that's what they're doing. They're bringing them back and putting them on trial. Not everybody.

I believe they've also had others that have come back and they haven't been tried. I assume they're being watched, but they're being integrated back into their communities. If I'm the United States or Canada or any country looking to repatriate these citizens, how would I make the decision to charge them or to not charge them? They have to have the evidence. And presumably, you know, in the US, we've seen some cases where they have been able to have the evidence and put people on trial.

Presumably, there are some cases in Canada that they can do that with as well. And the citizens will be brought back and taken immediately into custody and charged with terrorism offenses. And then there's other cases that, you know, it might not be so clear cut. Or there might be actual cases where someone's gone over. They absolutely do regret the decision. They come back. They're debriefed for their intelligence. And then you work to integrate them into society.

You know, listening to you talk about that, I am reminded of the New York Times podcast, Caliphate. A large part of that podcast focused on this young man. If you corner a dog that wants his freedom, it's going to bite you like that, you know? Who said that he had gone over to fight for ISIS and then came back, and there were no charges laid against him. But as the podcast went along, it was quite clear that he still held some extremist views.

Like, you don't have to worry about the violence part. That's not going to happen. Not ever. At least, unless I'm in the proper time and place for it, right? The battlefield. And is this something that people should be concerned about? Possibly that people come back, that they don't face charges or any ramifications here and that they have these extremist views? Yeah, I mean, I think the way to talk about it is to say violent extremism because lots of have these extremist views. Yeah, I mean, I think the way to talk about it is to say violent extremism, because lots of people have extremist views, and they never act on them, whether we're talking about this or something else. If somebody has extremist views that they're

going to act to become violent, absolutely, that's something we should worry about. And no one's saying that they want somebody who's gone to join ISIS to come back and live as their neighbor. I mean, it's a scary proposition that you go over there and join that. But there are programs in place here for those who have perhaps gone over and come back and still hold views. We do have programs in Canada that are geared specifically for what they call counter-violent extremism. And one in particular in Montreal, you know, the UN Secretary General came and praised when he was here. So there are people on the ground, there's government money going into these programs that we should use. I mean, we talk a lot about them and now we have the scenario of Canadians that are coming back, some who can't be charged.

So let's look at the social structure that we have, use it. And also, I mean, there's other law enforcement measures that can be used that are not just putting somebody in jail. So I know that you mentioned that the United States has asked that we take these people back and that other countries take them back as well. But do we have any legal obligations to take them back? So Ralph Goodale, public safety minister, he says that we don't. public safety minister. He says that we don't. Mr. Speaker, Canadians can be very assured that the government of Canada, the security agencies and police agencies of the government of Canada are making sure that they know all of the facts that they need to know and that they are taking all of the measures that are necessary to keep Canadians safe. But on the other side, the United Nations says that there is a legal obligation to bring them back. Agnes Callamard of the United Nations, she disagrees with Ralph Goodell.

First, I believe it has a legal obligation to do so. If those foreign fighters are currently held in Syria by a non-state actor, in this case, a Kurdish group. That group has currently no international legitimacy, and probably neither does it have the capacity to undertake fair trials. So I haven't really done a deep dive into the legal arguments for and against, but I would hope somebody in the government is because we've been in situations similar to this, where people have said, governments have said, we don't have a legal obligation. And then 10 years later, we're giving $10 million settlements. And the public goes crazy. You're talking about the Omar Khadr case. There's the Omar Khadr case, there's the Meher Arar case, there's the three other

men who were held in Syria and Egypt. And they're all different cases. And some would say, well, that's apples and oranges, because in those cases, there was Canadian involvement. But I'm not going to be surprised if, you know, eight, nine, 10 years down the road, that one of these cases is going to have something similar. The inaction of Canadian officials or action that we don't know about is going to be deemed as against their charter rights and there'll be a large payout. And compensation are in store for former Guantanamo Bay prisoner Omar Cotter. Ottawa will reportedly pay 10.5 million dollars. Before I let you go, I have one question that I really do want to hear your perspective on because I know that you've

spent a ton of time in Guantanamo Bay. What is it, like upwards of two dozen visits? 27. Wow. 27 and counting. And so, you know, this problem, it feels relatively new that we're grappling with this issue. Do you think that for many years Guantanamo Bay allowed governments to avoid having this conversation? Because we just take a lot of these people and put them in Guantanamo Bay? Yeah, I mean, it's a big question. And I think, yes, sure, it allowed people to not have to think about this. But hopefully, we've learned certain

things from Guantanamo that I would hope history wouldn't repeat itself, although it always seems to. You know, one of the biggest issues is, I think, is how it was used as a propaganda tool for Al-Qaeda at the time. And it's no coincidence that ISIS, you know, brought out their prisoners in orange jumpsuits. That became this type of propaganda and this cycle of terrorism keeps going. And when you're fighting, in the case of ISIS, you're fighting a group, but you're really fighting an ideology. And an ideology is not something you can put in a camp or arrest your way around. You have to look at all solutions.

And I just think in terms of this debate, it's short-sighted of the Canadian government not to act because it's not really a debate. We're not talking about bringing them home or leaving them there. These are not permanent camps. The Kurds have asked that countries take their citizens home. Now the U.S. has acted. What is the alternative? That they stay there. It's when the U.S. comes out, we don't know what's going to happen to Syria.

So I know just on a very practical term, as a Canadian, I would feel safer knowing that Canadian citizens who had been with ISIS are back now either going through some rehabilitation program, are in jail, or are being watched by our security services, than somewhere off in Syria in a situation that we don't know what's going to happen, and they could just simply disappear. And that's a lot more dangerous when we're talking about terrorism. Just to play the devil's advocate, from a Canadian perspective, is it better even if they disappear, that they're not here in our borders? I'm sure a lot of people would say that. But the nature of terrorism is that it's global. So

whether they're in Mississauga and planning an attack here, or they escape somewhere to Turkey and they get on a plane and plan an attack. It's borderless. So I think that's another argument for governments that have a security service and have jails and have laws that can deal with these cases, which presumably Canada should have. It makes the argument for dealing with it here and not leaving it to another country. So even if you put, you know, aside any legal concerns, moral concerns, ethical concerns, there's just the practical concern. And that is that they are in these camps. And let's say one of the Canadian women was not radical. She made the decision to go over. She was devastated by it. She can't wait to come home. She never wants to

hear about ISIS again. If she's being held in a camp with some perhaps hardliners in difficult conditions and just being told that the Canadian government's not going to do anything, that's certainly not going to make her a less dangerous person when she comes home. So I think there is that risk as well. And again, we've seen that play out in history in other cases. Michelle, thank you so much. Thanks, Jamie. We reached out to Global Affairs to ask them whether they had a plan to deal with these two Canadian women held in Syria, and more generally, a plan for Canadians who at one time were living in ISIS-occupied territory.

They sent us a statement. It said that while they're aware of Canadians being detained in Syria, the security situation on the ground makes it really difficult to provide consular assistance. The statement added that Canadian diplomats have established communication channels with local Kurdish authorities in order to verify the whereabouts of some Canadian citizens. Reports of an agreement concerning the repatriation of Canadian citizens from Syria, however, are false.

Also, over the weekend, U.S. President Donald Trump tweeted about this issue. He didn't mention Canada specifically, but called on Britain, France, Germany and other European allies to take back and put on trial 800 ISIS fighters he says the U.S. captured in Syria. The caliphate is ready to fall, the tweet said, adding, the alternative is not a good one in that we will be forced to release them. That's it for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging.

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