Front Burner - Texas, guns and America’s political paralysis

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

The gun debate in America is cycling through its usual motions in the wake of mass shootings in Buffalo, N.Y., and Uvalde, Texas. Today on Front Burner, a look at the state of the U.S. government, and its unwillingness or inability to confront the large problems facing the country, from gun violence to climate change to income inequality. Canadian writer Stephen Marche's most recent book is called The Next Civil War: Dispatches from the American Future. He thinks that the gun control debate is just one symptom of a wider disconnect that Americans, on both the left and the right, feel with their government. And he fears this is all heading in a dangerous direction.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. So you might have seen this clip going around over the last couple of days. It's Steve Kerr, the head coach of the Golden State Warriors,

expressing his extreme frustration in the wake of the mass elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas. When are we going to do something? I'm tired. I'm so tired of getting up here and offering condolences to the devastated families that are out there. I'm so tired of the, excuse me, I'm sorry, I'm tired of the moments of silence. Enough. Or maybe you saw this clip of CNN anchor Victor Blackwell breaking down while covering the mass shooting in Buffalo. Listen, I was counting in the car talking with my producer. I've done 15 of these, at least the ones I could count. these. At least the ones I could count. And we keep having the conversation about Democrats will say guns, Republicans will say mental health, and nothing will change. And I'll probably do another

one this year. Family after family having nowhere to go with their grief. Is this the way we're supposed to live? Both of these clips show sincere anger, sadness, frustration, with the inability or unwillingness to tackle the problem of gun violence in America. Here's a Sky News reporter talking to Texas Senator Ted Cruz. It is just an American problem, sir. Mr. Cruz, why is America the only country that faces this kind of mass shooting? You can't answer that. You can't answer that, can you, sir? You can't answer that. Why is it that people come from all over the world to America because it's the freest, most prosperous, safest country on Earth?

It may be the freest. My guest today thinks that the gun control debate is just one symptom of a wider disconnect that Americans on both the left and the right feel with their government. And he fears this is all heading in a dangerous direction. Stephen Marsh is a Canadian writer. His most recent book is called The Next Civil War, Dispatches from the American Future. Hey, Stephen, it's really nice to have you on. Thank you for making the time. Great to be with you. So I saw on Twitter that you actually shared the same video that we opened this episode with of Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr. And I know that you also tweeted out another video of Democratic Senator Chris Murphy basically asking.

Why are you here if not to solve a problem as existential as this? What struck you as you were watching those clips? I mean, I think what you see is the sense of impotence and futility in the political process that's overtaking the left in the United States. So the American right, since basically about 2008, has sort of taken it for granted that the American political system is in collapse and is at best pseudo legitimate. And, you know, that's definitely infected their entire politics. Now, I think what's starting to happen is that that same anger, that is the sort of natural outgrowth of that sense of political futility is coming for the left. And I'm, I don't know what the consequences of that are. It seems to me like a very, we sort of know what right wing rage looks

like in America, where we saw it in Buffalo, we see it all the time. It's really unclear what shape American left wing politics will take. Since, you know, it's becoming increasingly clear that democratic means are not going to, you know, achieve any policy objectives that you can name. means are not going to, you know, achieve any policy objectives that you can name. Tell me more about that breakdown on the left. So I think about hearing Democratic leaders when something like this happens after George Floyd, after the Roe v. Wade decision leaked, they say, this is a reason for you to actually go out and vote for us. Go ahead and vote for us. Yeah, but it doesn't make any difference, right? I mean, like, and people are starting to figure it out. Like the Democrat, like it doesn't make any difference, right? I mean, like, and people are starting to figure it out. Like, the

Democrat, like, basically the American political process is the right, you know, acting, and the left being unable to respond in any way to those acts. So, I mean, gun control is a really perfect example of it because, you

know, Democrats have been saying for a long time, you know, elect us and we will make a difference, but they don't make any difference at all. And the court system increasingly just allows, you know, more and more guns on the street. And, you know, Sandy Hook was in 2012. So you had the entire Obama administration, then you have the Biden administration. And really, you know, nothing has been done that would prevent these gun murders, these mass murders at all. In fact, they become more frequent. And, you know, the the the calls on the right for thoughts and prayers are also just totally pointless. And you're locked in a in a futile struggle in which there are effectively no policy consequences. And I think, you know, what that points to is really a breakdown in the system generally. I mean, you're at you're at a point in America where you can't really do anything in terms of policy through through elected mechanisms, particularly on the federal level.

of policy through elected mechanisms, particularly on the federal level. You know, it took them 11 months to appoint ambassadors in the Biden administration. And increasingly, like very basic functions of government, like not reneging on your debt are, you know, almost outside of the realm of possibility for people in government. And it's going to get much worse. You know, it's going, this is only going to get worse. I don't want this to be like an overly obvious question, but like maybe talk to me a little bit about why they can't do these basic functions of

government. Because, you know, Obama at one point did have a super majority and the Democrats currently control the House and the Senate. Yeah, well, they have this incredibly arcane system inherited from the 18th century, which they absolutely worship. And even when, you know, when I was doing this book and I was out going and talking to far-right people or Texas separatists or California separatists or people who actively want the end of the United States of America, they still worship the Constitution. Everybody in the United States worships the Constitution. The New York Times worships it. Far-right people worship it. And of course, it's a work of know, it's a work of great genius. Like there

can be no doubt about that, but it is 250 years old, and it just simply doesn't reflect reality anymore. So, you know, the political system as it stands in the United States is these arcane rules that are inherited from the 18th century, which don't really function when people try to abuse them. They lead to situations like five out of nine Supreme Court justices being selected by presidents who did not win the majority, the popular majority in the election, and then try to overturn Roe v. Wade, which is a, you know, that's a, you know, support for that level of abortion protection is about 70 percent in the United States. So you have, you know, and also increased background checks like somewhere around 80, 90 percent of Americans believe in increased background checks. But essentially, because the hyper partisanship has gotten to the point where the angriest and most extreme members of both parties carry by far the

most weight politically. And the primaries are driven by these, you know, extremely minor fractions of both parties. Those huge majorities who want sensible policies that every other advanced economy in the world can manage, they can't manage. And they're defined increasingly just by the rage and hatred against their political opponents rather than, you know, what can be agreed on collectively as steps forward. So, you know, that's a very kind of, I know that sounds like a vague answer. I mean, it is a big question. But, you know, more or less, hyper-partisanship, effective hyper-partisanship is to blame here. And their politics has been defined by anger since, you know, since at least 2008.

I know you see 2008 as a turning point and why? Why 2008? Well, it's not really me that it's a turning point. It's just when the scholars of effective partisanship start talking about when it started, they bring up 2008. Certainly for people who are experts on the far right in the United States and the rise of things like sovereign citizen movement and the Oath Keepers. Show the world who the traitors are and then use the

Insurrection Act to drop the hammer on them. Before 2008, they were really marginal. I mean, there were always cranks and lunatics. It's like, just like there are always cranks and lunatics here, there are cranks and lunatics all over Europe. 2008 is when they started really going mainstream and really started having effects on the mainstream political class. And that's just something that every expert notices. The reasons for that are

the biggest one that they believe is the housing crisis and the collapse of the housing market. And subsequent to that, the sort of death of what I think, I mean, I don't mean to sound too grandiloquent, but like the death of the American dream where you have children doing worse than their parents, where you have inequality taken to such levels where people cannot move into the middle class. There's very little social mobility, as well as declining health outcomes, where you have a lower life expectancy than previously. And then also, of course, a Black president who defies the white iconography that's traditional to the country.

And also, I think, the failure of the surge in Iraq, to me, where you cannot no longer pretend that America is just this purely benevolent force in world affairs. These things all sort of combined in this toxic mess of 2008. And so that's really where the roots are. But that's where things tend to start. I don't think it's necessarily that those explanations would be accepted by all experts. But that's where the far right really begins in its current iteration. Yeah.

And then during the Trump years, fair to say that it got like supercharged. Yes. Although I think, you know, we really tend to exaggerate the power of Trump. I mean, you know, like Trump himself, the smartest thing he ever said about himself is he said, divided, I didn't come along and divide this country. This country was seriously divided before I got here. We're going to work on it very hard. And I think we're going to we're finding out I mean, I think there were a lot of people on the left who thought, you know, Trump will go and that'll be the end of division. You know, I mean, when I was when I was

writing this book, people said to me, oh, well, Trump lost. You know, there's no cause for you to publish this book anymore. And it's like, well, no, the trends that are underway here are very deep. They are really built into the structure of the United States and its failures of government. And those things have, you know, have absolutely nothing to do with Trump. So, you know, I do think Trump didn't make it better. But on the other hand, the really important fact here is that by 2040, 50% of the United States is going to control 85% of the

Senate. And that's going to leave a lot of Americans, you know, already the majority of Americans believe this, but it's going to leave a lot of Americans feeling like they're not living in a democracy. And what the fallout from that is you know is is unclear but it political violence is definitely um one one possible outcome heightened levels of political violence In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%.

That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Well, you know, obviously you wrote a whole book about the idea that America could be headed to a civil war. So look, that's probably going to sound really alarmist or hyperbolic to- Certainly my editors all thought it was. So, okay, why? Why civil war? Well, the United States is a textbook example of a country headed

for civil war. I mean, you have, on the one hand, this shift away from democracy. So, you know, democracies tend to be very stable and autocracies tend to be very stable. Where real political violence tends to arrive is in the gray area in between what they call anocracy, where it's sort of a democracy, but it's also sort of not. And that's really where America, but it's also sort of not. And that's really where America, you know, is, is now is certainly it's headed there. If it's not there now, um, you have a fraying environment, which is starting to cause a lot of disasters. You have a heavily armed population. Um, and you have this, this toxic hyper-partisanship, which makes, you know, bad decisions by government, kind of the norm. And where it can't even get it's like, like stopping these mass shootings is not complicated politically. Every other advanced

country in the world has figured out how to do it. It's not actually that hard. The problems they're facing, like the environmental crisis or regulating technology, those are really hard. Those are incredibly hard to figure out how to do as a government. And so they're, you know, they're going to be completely unprepared for those kind of extremely drastic situations that they're facing. So like nothing is inevitable in this world. But you know, the trends in the United States are certainly coincident with countries that head towards civil war. And I think, you know, the political violence is on the rise. Certainly, faith in the electoral system is now at an all-time low. The belief

that violence might be necessary for your political party to win, you know, 33% of voters of both parties ascribe to that. So, you know, it's a tinderbox and like, and, and, you know, you can see it. Like, it's not like January 6th happened. Like, it's not, it's not like, it's not like I'm seeing something here that no one else can see. It's just like, do we have the will to actually see what's going on right in front of our faces? And what it is, is civil conflict. So if I could push back on that for January 6th, for example, is it also just possible that it was like this haphazard, disorganized movement, which is so frayed within itself that like, like maybe you'll see small outbursts of violence every now and then, but like nothing,

nothing major because they just can't like get their act together. Oh, they're getting their act together. You know, it was certainly, I mean, like there were very senior levels of government, including a Supreme Court justice's wife and the president who were supportive of it. And it's true that it wasn't particularly well organized and it wasn't armed as much as it could have been. But to me, when you look at January 6th, what I'm looking at is like the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. It's the one that where it didn't quite manage to get to where it was going. But next time, they will be much more organized.

And they've already set up across the country ways of, you know, essentially nullifying electoral outcomes that they don't like. And that is coming. Like, whether it's coming in 2024 or 2028, you know, half of the country does not believe it's electoral return officers. So, you know, like, I don't know how much scarier it can be. Can you turn it around? I know in your book you wrote, there is one hope, however, that must be rejected outright. The hope is that everything will work out by itself, that America will bumble along into better times. Yeah. I mean, my point there is it's not going to be like the 70s, right?

It's not going to be like we're going to get to the end of the 60s where all these cities burned and then you get to the 70s and it's going to be, you know, quaaludes and lava lamps and key parties and whatever. Like, that's not what's going to happen here. Like, America is the great country of reinvention. It is the great country of political reinvention. It is the great country of political reinvention. And it is a country where the idea of becoming new is much more practically possible than it is anywhere else in the world. So that hope that I talked about that book, I know it sounds vague, but it's not. Like they are amazingly good at this. The question is, are they going to figure out that they need it?

And if they were to restart their country, would it look like the country they have now? Would their constitution be the constitution they have now? I can't imagine that it would be. You know, I think Americans tend to think of their country as the solution to history. You know, they tend to think of it as like the answer to the world's problems. And it isn't. It's just another country. But when you look at something like, you know, a country like France, which is in its fifth republic right now, you know, what America needs is a new republic. But, you know, as I said, if any country can do it, it's them.

You know, just to end this conversation, this is something that I wanted to ask you earlier. I didn't get to it. When you say this deep reverence for the Constitution, like, why? Why this deep reverence for the Constitution? Because I know Jefferson even said that the Constitution shouldn't be this immutable thing, but literally interpret it. So why this love for the Constitution? To be fair, for 200 plus years, it made them the richest, most powerful, freest country in the world, right? Like, I mean, if you were sitting in 1965 and looking around at other countries' political systems from the point of view of the United States, you might well feel that you were the solution to history, you know, despite the obvious problems

and despite obvious failures and despite crimes and so on. Like, it was an amazingly powerful democracy and the world's lodestar democracy for, you know, 200 years. So, like, I don't want to be critical of the Constitution. It's an amazing document amazing document i mean it is really the most important political document of the modern era i'm not i i i would not dispute that with anyone but when a document reaches 250 years old you know it there are certain areas of it like the second amendment which just simply don't apply to the to the 21st century and need rewriting and need and need um you know to be rethought from the ground up. So, like, I don't mean, there's the worship of the U.S. Constitution. It's not necessarily wrong. It's just, it's time is up. Stephen, thank you for this.. But before we go, a taste of what you can hear

on Nothing is Foreign this week. We've been running episodes and clips in our feed for the last little while. And if you haven't already subscribed, you should. The show is really good. Every week, it's a trip around the world to the heart of the biggest international news stories. This week, the focus is on the front lines of the Ukraine-Russia war. For generations, eastern Ukraine has been much more pro-Russian politically than the rest of the country. But as the Russian offensive bears down in the east, with atrocities being committed, are these pro-Russian attitudes changing? Tensions over the Russian language have been playing out in Ukraine for years.

Putin has accused the Ukrainian government of persecuting Russian speakers, and it's been part of the justification for this war, for the annexation of Crimea, where the majority of people speak Russian. And it was a key part of the Kremlin's narrative at the start of the conflict in the Donbass in 2014. The most recent development is a 2019 language law that made it compulsory to use Ukrainian in most aspects of public life. And there are people like Enrique who weren't happy about it.

People like me, I am supporting that we have to make Russian language as official too. But while there are people in Ukraine who feel like these laws are exclusionary of Russian speakers and were introduced too quickly, Enrique says Putin's claim that Russian speakers are being persecuted is an exaggeration. It's not a matter of war and it's only Ukrainian domestic question. But we could not even imagine that one day we will be invaded by Russia with that justification of we will protect the Russian speaking. We do not need that kind of protection, frankly speaking.

You can listen to the full episode of Nothing is Foreign and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes are out every Friday morning. That's it for this week. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Ali Janes, Imogen Burchard, Mackenzie Cameron, Simi Bassey, Katie Toth, Ben Andrews, and Derek Vanderwyk. Our sound design was by Sam McNulty and Nooruddin Karane. Our music is by Joseph Chavison. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening.

We'll talk to cbc.ca slash podcasts.