Front Burner - The aftermath of the Quebec mosque shooting

Episode Date: February 8, 2019

"I can't even venture to guess how long it'll take for people to feel safe again." CBC reporter Catou MacKinnon covered the shooting at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Quebec City on January 29, 2017. Alexandre Bissonnette pleaded guilty to six counts of first degree murder and six counts of attempted murder. Ahead of his sentencing, Catou tells host Jayme Poisson about the lasting impact the incident has had on the Muslim community in Quebec City's Sainte-Foy neighbourhood.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood, or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey, I'm Michelle Parisi, the woman behind Alone, A Love Story.

Season 3 is coming out on February 5th. Love, sex, travel, motherhood, it's all in there. You don't expect anything less from me by now, do you? So put on some tea, make some space under the blankets, and get ready to hunker down with the final season of Alone, A Love Story. Alone, a love story. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Saint-Foy, near Quebec City, is a small neighborhood.

On any given Sunday, it's usually pretty quiet. But on January 29, 2017, it was a very different story. Police were called to the scene just before 8pm for shots fired. We have never seen anything like it in Canada. A deadly attack on people at prayer in a house of worship. We can confirm that we have six persons pronounced dead. Alexandre Bissonnette made his way into the Islamic Cultural Centre in Saint-Foy. About 50 people were there for Sunday prayers.

He began to shoot. He killed six men and critically injured five. He would later plead guilty on all counts. More than two years after the shooting, Bissonnette is about to find out how many years he'll spend in prison. And for the families who were directly affected, it might be the beginning of some closure. I'm talking today to Katu McKinnon. She's a CBC reporter in Quebec City who covered both the shooting and the aftermath.

I can't even venture to guess how long it's going to take for people to feel safe again. This is FrontBurner. Katu, hello. Hi. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's my pleasure. I'm hoping that we can start today by you taking us to St. Foy, Quebec. What's it like there? So St. Foy, for people who visited Quebec City, you know there's the old part. That's downtown. This is on your way into the city. It's a mostly residential area and it used to actually be a suburb of Quebec City and there's also a rather multicultural or more multicultural than in some other places of Quebec City. A lot of the Muslim people that I've met throughout the past few years live out there near the mosque, near the university. You have to understand, too, that we have a strong Muslim or mostly Maghrebian population at the university as well because of the common French language.

And you've spoken to many Muslim Canadians who live there, particularly in the last few years you mentioned. What is their experience like? Most will say it's a quiet place here. We love it. We're welcomed. We've never had any trouble with racism or maybe a few times. Somebody else might have a completely different experience. One of the men who was shot but survived, he had his daughter went to school, he called to say, you know, she wears a scarf over her head. And on that first day of school, somebody physically removed that headscarf from her. So it really depends on the experience. But we've had that population of Muslims here in Quebec City for, you know, 20, 30 years. And those who actually practice Islam on a regular basis are a minority. And I know today what we're going to

talk about is what's at stake with the sentencing of Alexandra Bissonnette. But in order to know that, to understand that, we really need to understand what happened. And I know that you've spent a lot of time talking to the friends and family of the men who were killed that night. Can you tell me about them, the men that died? Well, I remember trying to figure out how to pronounce their names at first because I'd never met any of them. I'd never heard of them. But the last two years, I feel like I've come to know them and some were well known. So for example, Azdin Soufiane, he owned this halal grocery store that's been around forever. He'd been written up in the newspaper.

He would do the little things, the things that others might not do. A Quebecer would come in to the door. That person could have walked in for the very first time. And when you looked at Azedine, it was as if he had known him all his life. He's got the great big bushy beard and the great big smile. So there's a business owner. We also had a university professor, Khaled Belkasimi, who had set up his life here.

He'd actually gone home at one point to Algeria, but there was a violent incident there, so he decided to come back to Quebec City. He is a guy, he's a real professional one. But in our private life, you can't imagine how many jokes per day we make, me and him. And when we meet, it's just laugh, laugh, laugh. He's a father of three. There were two men from Guinea, Ibrahima Bari and Tanu Bari.

So Ibrahima is, once again, like a lot of people here in Quebec City, he worked IT and he worked for the government. He's the kind of person who never complains. Like, you could always count on him. Tanu Bari was an accountant for a cosmetics firm. How he used to smile and laugh when I told him, I feel so bad because I haven't come to your house and seen the baby yet. I said, sister, don't worry. We know how things work here.

We're all busy running all day. And there's also Boubacar Thabti. When he was living back in Tunisia, he worked the night shift. And when he came here to Canada, he decided to work the exact same shift. But in Tunisia, it was a pharmacy. Here he worked in one of our biggest poultry producer factories. So he drove, you know, overnight to the other side of the river to work there. He worked by night, he slept a few hours a day, and the rest of the time he has to take care of his family. It's really hard to me to remember moments with Boubacar without a family,

because he spent almost all the time with his family. There's this one anecdote from that night that really sticks with me. He went to the grocery store owned by Azedin Soufiane, who you also spoke about, to get a pizza for his children. And the pizza wasn't ready. So Azedin suggested that they go to prayers in the meantime. And of course, neither of these men made it home. Yes. And that's actually a story. There were lots of stories like that, of people who ended up there, who had just left, who had decided not to go, who had decided to go. One more man who died that night is Abdelkarim Hassan.

Yeah, and I spoke to his aunt, Zahra Boukhersi. She called him a papa gâteau. C'est ce qu'on dit en français. We say in French papa gâteau because he loved his girls that much. So the kind of dad who just loves, cherishes, and might even spoil his three little girls a little bit. And he was an IT consultant.

So once again, just from every walk of life and like any other person in Quebec City. Do you have a sense of what life has been like for their families in the last two years? You know, difficult, tough, horrific. There are not enough adjectives to really describe. It's been awful. So it's not only that you've lost the father of your children or your dad in some cases, but it's also it's how they died and that it was an attack. but it's also it's how they died and that it was an attack.

So along with all the grief that you would normally have when somebody in your life is murdered, there's all that fear and terror. You know, Jamie, it was considered a terrorist act at first and our Prime Minister actually still calls it that. This was a group of innocents targeted for practicing their faith. Make no mistake, this was a terrorist attack. Alexandre Bissonnette was never actually charged with terrorism, but that is the word that people in the community will use

because they live in fear. And have there been other hateful acts that have followed this? You know, the very next day after the shooting, there was sort of this groundswell of support. So thousands of people gathered right next to the mosque. They lit candles. They held a vigil. I remember this, yeah. What was the message that you think tonight sent

to the people of the Muslim community? That we're all united and, like, we care about them. And they're accepted, and we're glad that they are here and they are all part of, we're all together, we're all a community. They are brothers and sisters. Exactly. Very powerful. The images were across the country and there was this message of, we support you, you're one of us, we believe in you. You know, people really wanted to show that what had happened was not representative of how people felt about Muslims in Quebec. But over the next several months, there were several hate incidents and I would say a different kind of groundswell of anti-Muslim sentiment.

So, for example, you might have remembered there was a big uproar about creating or building a cemetery for Muslims. And it was going to be on the other side of the river, next to a highway, and people on the other side of the highway were really upset and they actually voted it down. Mariam Bassiri emigrated from Morocco eight years ago. They talk about creating roots, she says, about integration.

But as a new Canadian, we're being refused a burial ground. Wouldn't that help create roots? Then there was an incident. Somebody dropped off a desecrated Koran at the mosque, an anonymous package, and with it a picture of a pigsty with the message, hey, if you want a cemetery, why don't you build one here? Imam Hassan Ghia was at the mosque, sitting with survivors of the shooting when they learned they were again the target of hate. Some of the wounded people are in the mosque. So for us, it's very emotional. And to come to that particular mosque, to deliver

a parcel like that, it's very appalling. That just threw the families into a different sphere. I remember going to court one day and the president of the mosque just saying, you know, we are so tired of this climate of hatred. So that's the first year. Now the second year is all the court proceedings. So the trial, which was supposed to start in March, but then the shooter pleads guilty. But then you hear all the details. And then all the people who make their victim impact statements.

One survivor told the judge, I see danger even here in court. I imagine it and I create scenarios and I think about how to intervene. Are there children? How do we protect them? I do that everywhere. And so that's another really tough year. So just imagine all that with the, and then the background, you're also dealing with your grief and for six women, they're single moms now. Right. All of this must have been incredibly re-traumatizing for the people involved in this, the families and the loved ones of the men who died and anyone who's there that night. Is there a sense that they've been able to find bits of comfort in any of this?

sense that they've been able to find bits of comfort in any of this? Well, I've spoken to a woman who just happens to be, one, Arabic speaking, two, a specialist in PTSD, and three, also Muslim. Nadia Kandil, I met her and she told me, you know, she said, I ran to the mosque that night because I knew that they were going to need me to get them through. And what she has said, and I've heard it from her and I've heard it from a lot of other people, is that they are extremely resilient, in part because of their faith. Nadja Kandil has seen about 40 people. Some are doing better, some are not. But it's the re-traumatizing you just mentioned a few minutes ago, because every single time this is in the news, it can trigger a flashback. It can cause your nightmares to come back.

I had not heard until the actual court proceedings how terrified people were. I'll never forget, there were at least two people who said, I'm walking down the street sometimes sometimes and I think that somebody's going to walk up behind me with a gun and shoot me. So that's the level of fear that they have now. I can't imagine what that feels like to live like that on a daily basis. I do want to pick up on one thing you mentioned, this idea that their faith has helped them get through this. You did one interview that has really stuck with me. You spoke with Tierno Bari, the brother of Ibrahima Bari, who was killed at the mosque that night. Dying at a mosque, that has helped us, you know, as a family, my parents, everybody who knew him, if they say he died at the mosque, everybody was saying, Alhamdulillah, thank God. I want to fast forward to today.

Alexandre Bissonnette, he pled guilty to six counts of murder and six counts of attempted murder from the night at the mosque, and he's about to be sentenced. You know, I know it's impossible to fully understand why someone would do something like this, but what do we know about why he says he did this? Well, there are two things that he has said, Jamie, and they're different. The very next day after the shooting, after he himself had called 911 to turn himself in, you know, he was telling police that he didn't really remember what had happened.

He wanted to know if there were children there and how many people had died. He ended up saying that he had been so afraid of terrorists coming to Canada that he himself had decided to target the mosque and even though some innocent lives might be lost, that he might also prevent a terrorist act here. I want to save people. You want to save people? Yes.

Terrorist attacks. Okay. Now that's what he told the police at first. What we later found out in court, because he'd been talking to a social worker every week in jail, that she wrote in her report, he came in eight months after the shooting and he just broke down and cried and said, I need to tell the truth now.

And the truth is, I remember everything. But this social worker also said something that was just, there was shock and absolute devastation in the courtroom that day, because he said, you know, I wish I'd killed more people. He actually used the word regret. I regret not killing more people. So when he broke down with the social worker, it wasn't because he felt any remorse for what he had done? Well, from that report, no. He did express remorse later. But in that report, it was, I wanted the glory, and I regret not having killed more

people. What could happen at his sentencing today? So when you commit one murder or three or six or eight, you're automatically sentenced to life in prison. What's different, though, is how long you can spend in prison before you're allowed to ask for parole. So in 2011, there was a change in the law. parole. So in 2011, there was a change in the law, and it used to be that you could apply for parole after spending 25 years behind bars. As of 2011, a judge can decide to give you back-to-back chunks of 25 years without parole. So Alexandre Bissonnet, by pleading guilty to those six murders, plus all of the attempted murders, exposes himself to 150 years without parole. I remember that day because the judge, this was all under a publication ban at the time, but when he pleaded guilty, he said, do you know what you're doing?

The judge went as far as having Bissonetteette, having a psychiatrist establish whether Bissonnette was able and capable of making that decision. He asked him 20 questions about whether or not there was any pressure on him. And he said, I plead guilty, and he knowing that full well. So what happens today is what does the judge say? happens today is what does the judge say? Does he make what is essentially a symbolic gesture of saying 150 years without parole, one period of 25 years for each person that you killed? Do you have a sense of why he chose to plead guilty? Well, the judge asked him, you know, is there pressure from your parents? Is there pressure from your lawyer? And he said no. He says that he pleaded guilty to avoid the victims and the widows, the children who lost their fathers, to avoid them having to go through the painful memory of going through a trial and having to testify. Have we heard anything from Alexander Bissonnette's own family?

Have we heard anything from Alexandre Bissonnette's own family? Well, at the end of all the arguments about the constitutionality of putting somebody in prison for the rest of their life and the victim impact statements, the parents of Bissonnette, so Manon Marchand and Raymond Bissonnette, made a public statement. Alexandre is not a monster. And they said, you know, our son is troubled. He had been troubled for a long time. We wish we had seen it. We have a lot of compassion for this community, for the racism that they encounter, but also for their grief, for we feel sad for them. I realize how much this community members feel isolated and misunderstood. I also realize that nothing will change their opinion about my son Alexander and I fully understand. But they also said, you know, we think that the Crown prosecutor has tried to demonize our child.

They said they hoped that there was a chance that he might not spend the rest of his life in prison. And Bissonnette had also said that. 100 years is actually a death sentence in disguise. We all know. All hope is extinguished. I fear that in my son's case, the Crown is actually seeking a political, not a judicial sentence. Before I let you go, I'd like to zoom in on this idea of hatred and what happened at the mosque two years ago. It ignited a national conversation about anti-Muslim sentiment in the province. It's not the first time the province has had this conversation. And there were questions about whether there was a specific issue in Quebec.

And can you take me through the elements of that conversation? In the rest of Canada, you might just not say things black on white. In Quebec, people do. So let's talk about Islamophobia. So the issue came up because the Premier, François Legault, was asked whether or not there should be a day if January 29th, the night of the shooting, should become a day against Islamophobia. And François Legault answered, there is no Islamophobia in Quebec. And then ended up backtracking, saying, well, first he said there was no trend of Islamophobia or no culture of Islamophobia.

But there is here, but there is always that reticence to name it because nobody wants to be labeled racist. These comments that Legault made last week, as you mentioned, he walked them back. Can we talk a little bit about one specific response from Eamon Derbali, who, as you mentioned, is one of the men who tried to stop Bissonnette the night of the attack, and he was shot seven times but survived. So Eamon Derbali said it just last week in response to what Premier François Legault said, of course there is Islamophobia. There's Islamophobia as there is here, as there is in the rest of Canada. I think that I would be a perfect example to show them the result of hate crime,

the result in myself, my body. We also heard from Boufelja Ben Abdallah. This is the president of the mosque. Yeah, Boufelja Ben Abdallah, who co-founded the mosque 35 years ago. He's the president of the mosque. And he came right out after François Legault said, there's no Islamophobia in Quebec, and said, you know, I felt betrayed, I felt hurt. And then he listed all the hate crimes or hate incidents that had occurred next to the mosque or at the mosque.

He then said, oh, well, we've had a conversation and everything's OK. But there was a kind of an uproar, frankly, when when the premier said that. What do you think this specific massacre, what has the impact been on St. Foy in particular? Oh, that is a big question. That's a really big question because you're, I can't even venture to guess how long it's going to take for people to feel safe again. For example, the president of the mosque, Emman Darbali as well, they say if a little bit of good can come out of this and we can start to talk to people and,

you know, get rid of all the myths about Muslims. I think there's some hope in that. Ben Abdallah, I met him a few weeks ago and he said, you know, I would like for people to know that people don't just come here for economic reasons. We come here and we invest our hearts into this place. You know, Ben Abdallah also says it disrupted the fabric of the society because you had this hatred, this person who tried to create a schism in society. I want to add that the society has to be with us. The society has to know that our participation of building this society, it's really a participation with our heart. And the best thing is to build the peace and to this society could be an example for Earth. Katu, thank you so much for taking the time

to take us through the story today. My pleasure, Jamie. We'll be back in a second. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks, including exclusive content curated by and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life

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That's it for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced by Chris Berube, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, and Robert Parker, with help from Aisha Varmania. Derek Vanderwyk does our sound design. Our music is by Joseph Chavison from Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McKay-Blocos. Thanks for listening. See you Monday. is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus.

Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone.

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