Front Burner - The day that set the Michaels free

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

After 1,020 days in Chinese jail cells, the two Michaels — Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor — came home. CBC’s Jason Proctor and the University of Ottawa’s Errol Mendes break it down.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. So it turned out a federal election was actually arguably the second biggest piece of news last week. Late Friday night, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called a press conference. After 1,020 days in Chinese jail cells, the two Michaels, Michael Kovrig, Michael Spavor, were coming home. These two men have been through an unbelievably difficult

situation, but it is inspiring and it is good news for all of us that they are on their way home to their families. By the next morning, Trudeau was greeting the men at the Calgary airport. Then on to Toronto for Michael Kovrig, where he was reunited with his wife and sister on the tarmac. How are you feeling, Michael? Fantastic, thank you very much. All of this followed with incredible speed. A deal reached in the U.S. with Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou, who was immediately put back on a plane to China. Friends, good evening. Sorry for keeping you waiting this late evening.

Finally, I came back home. Today, my colleague Jason Proctor and BC on what happened with that deal. Then professor of law at the University of Ottawa, Errol Mendez, to talk big picture geopolitics. Hi, Jason. Great to have you back. Hi, Jamie. Thank you for having me. It took just two days to go from it looking like the Michaels could be stuck in Chinese custody indefinitely to them being here in Canada.

So I'm hoping you can help me understand how this all unfolded last week. And what were the first whispers we heard that something could be happening with Meng Wanzhou's case in the US? Meng Wanzhou's case in the US? Well, so essentially, we woke up Friday morning to reports that were starting to circulate through Reuters, actually, that there was some kind of a deal to resolve Meng Wanzhou's prosecution forthcoming in the United States. And so the matter was slated for 1pm.m. Eastern in a Brooklyn courtroom. And remember, she's charged in the United States or was with conspiracy to commit wire fraud, wire fraud, conspiracy to commit bank fraud and bank fraud. And so there is giant news and feeling going on with regards to this. and feeling going on with regards to this.

There's a teleconference line set up that I dialed into, easily 100 people on that line, which interestingly enough, the same judge that was giving instructions to the jury in musician R. Kelly's sex trafficking trial went directly from that, was delayed by an hour to have this hearing where Mung is appearing from her lawyer's

office in downtown Vancouver. Wow. Two very high profile trials. Yeah. Yeah. This judge had a lot on her plate that day. So Meng Wanzhou is arraigned. She pleads not guilty. But then the US prosecutor, David Kessler, says they have reached a deferred prosecution agreement with her that will last four years from the date of her arrest. She was arrested here on December 1st, 2018, after landing at Vancouver's airport on a flight from Hong Kong. The deal ends December 1, 2022. As part of that, she agrees to a statement of facts, which essentially admit to all the underlying allegations that this case was about. And very briefly, that is that she lied to an HSBC executive in Hong Kong about Huawei's control of a subsidiary that was

violating US economic sanctions against Iran. And by doing that, she put HSBC at peril of prosecution and loss because they would in effect be violating those same economic sanctions by handling financial transactions for Huawei through the U.S. banking system. So she admits to that. They defer the prosecution. And they say at the same time that they will tell Canada's justice minister they no longer want to extradite Meng Wanzhou. And just to be clear here, she admits to these facts, but she has pled not guilty. She has pled not guilty. And as part of the deferred prosecution agreement,

if she abides by certain conditions, which are essentially admitting to these facts, and then, you know, keeping the peace being of good behavior, until the end of the deferred prosecution date, the US agrees that they'll dismiss the indictment and the charges against her. There are still charges against Huawei, the company, remember, and we will presume that this admission of fact will be key in the prosecution of that case as it goes forward in the U.S. courts. Okay. So it doesn't take long for the court in BC to drop the extradition case against her. And after years of house arrest at her Vancouver mansion, she's suddenly free, right, on Friday. And talk to me about what she has to say. Yeah, so basically, she appears in court,

the Crown says we no longer want to extradite her. This is a motion beyond anything you've seen in this courtroom before. She's hugging her lawyer. She comes out. There's a crowd of supporters shouting her name outside the court. There are throngs of people. She makes her way through this throng to this bank of microphones where she stands and she's holding a bunch of cue cards in her hand that she reads the statement from. And she talks about the impact of this on her she thanks the canadian people she thanks the court she makes a specific point of of thanking the judge who oversaw this huge legal process and these complicated legal arguments apologizes to canadians for the inconvenience uh she's caused them But then she also turns to the impact on her,

where she says this turned her life upside down. It was a disruptive time for me as a mother, a wife, and a company executive. But I believe every cloud has a silver lining. It really was an invaluable experience in my life. She almost immediately after that gets on a plane back to China, right? And how is she received when she gets home? As you say, you could basically drive a direct route from the court to the airport, which is what she did. She's chartered a 777 Boeing jet, which flies out, you know, basically within two hours of her appearance on those front steps, flies home, steps off the plane

in a red dress. Kind of interesting to note, she got in the plane in a red dress kind of interesting to note she got in the plane in a black and white polka dot dress gets off in a red dress to a hero's welcome thanks china the motherland as she calls it uh in regards to this china talks about this as though it is a giant victory for china there's no mention of mich Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, the two Michaels in regards to this case. And they also say, you know, it's sort of proof that it's a political prosecution, making no mention of the fact that she admitted to the underlying facts that make up this case against her and Huawei. Okay, Jason, thank you so much for this. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. It's a really big struggle for me. But when I paint on and cite food on Chinese soil, I feel the warmth and I'm so thrilled. The mother lied. Right now, I'm back to you. All right, now on to Errol Mendez. He's a professor of international law at the University of Ottawa, and much of his work has been on human rights in China.

Hi, Errol. Thank you so much for making the time to speak with me today. You're very welcome. All right, so first, I'm just wondering if you were surprised by any of this. First, the actual deal struck in the U.S. And then the speed at which this all happened on Friday, the deal, and then literally the immediate return of the two Michaels and the return of Meng Wanzhou to China. I was not surprised by the deal because the deal has actually been in the works for months. I heard about it about two or three months ago, where there was a first

inclination that the Justice Department of the United States was talking to our Canadian ambassador to China, Dominic Barton. And also there were some high level discussions going on between the Prime Minister's office and the administration, the Biden administration. So the deal, actually, I was not surprised. I was expecting something like this. In terms of the quick release, well, I have actually two explanations, one which is surprise, one which is not surprising. Can you tell me about those two responses that you had? Right.

responses that you had? Right. So if, for example, people were surprised by the quick release of the two Michaels, some in my circles are basically saying, well, that's just another indication that China doesn't really care that it is engaging in hostage diplomacy, or what I call kidnapping. Because frankly, it thinks it's now a major world superpower on level with the United States. And as we know, they've done the same in many other areas from Hong Kong with the UK, to the South China Seas, and of course, with Canada too. And essentially, some of the people in my circles are basically saying this is just another example of China doesn't really care whether it's regarded as a rule breaker. And I actually am not in that camp as yet. I think something else is happening, which we don't know enough about. And it is all tied up

with the present Biden administration ramping up its China and Indo-Pacific strategy. Essentially, in my view, one of the reasons why the quick release could have happened was because of the increasing pressure that the Biden administration is posing on China. Let me give you a few examples. One is the most recent one, which is the deal with Australia and the United Kingdom on the sale of the nuclear submarines, which is basically a threat to China, basically saying, we are starting to ramp up our military operations in that area. That was actually preceded by what's called the Quad Agreement between Japan, India, Australia, and the United States.

Again, a signal to China that we are stamping, really increasing our actions in the Indo-Pacific and with China in mind because we feel that China increasingly is challenging the rules of the game in a whole bunch of areas. So when the quick release happened, I started looking around and seeing what is the evidence that through the Biden administration's pressure. So you're saying essentially this could be an example of China actually bowing to pressure? Absolutely. Just last week, according to the New York Times, there was a conversation between President Xi Jinping and President Biden. And one of the things that came out from today's report in the New York Times is that there was an agreement

that they would try and get back to a much more stable relationship. Now, when President Biden talks about a stable relationship, keep in mind that he's also trying to become a key architect of a democratic world coalition to deal with not only China, but Russia. Australia on submarines, the meeting with the Quad, and some of the challenges that the US did to challenge China on trade. Remember that the EU had this trade agreement with China. And once Biden came to power, he put enough pressure that the EU has now rescinded that agreement with trade. Trade is actually one of the immense possible levers that the democratic world has with China.

You know, I want to come back to US and Canada-China relations in one moment, but the two Michaels were in prison for over a thousand days. And, you know, clearly the strategy from Canada was to pressure the United States to, you know, strike this deal, right? To deal with this on their end. And so do you agree with that strategy ultimately? Like, do you think that something else could have been done sooner? Well, the strategy that Canada was pursuing was not only asking the United States to basically act in a stronger fashion with the two Michaels, but keep in mind, too, that Canada had professed that its main reason why it would not cry uncle and basically send

Wang Guangzhou back to China because, as you know, the government kept on saying, we are a rule of law country. So I actually was one of the strongest opponents of those in very high levels who claimed that we should have just done that because I think that would have sent a signal to China that we could have done this in a whole bunch of other areas um and we can we can possibly contemplate that it'll try it again um even with the two michaels now being released so no absolutely um i think it was part of a strategy to to basically stick to our rule of law um position along with asking the united states to do far more. And also, as you know, we put together an agreement with 60 odd countries against this type of hostage diplomacy,

which actually embarrassed China a lot. So there was a multi-pronged strategy, which I think was legitimate. Now, that doesn't mean to say that I was happy with the fact that our two Michaels were essentially in a prison in a state which was really torture, where they had 24-7 lighting while Meng Wanzhou was living in a mansion and going for massages, etc. So, yes, I know. I mean, many Canadians would have said, come on, we can't let that go on. But, you know, given the fact… For example, former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, he argued that our Justice Minister should have intervened and just let that go on. But, you know, given the fact... For example, former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, he argued that our Justice Minister should have intervened and just let her go. Yeah, I strongly disagree with that.

Because if we do that, first of all, we are denying our position that we are a rule of law country. And secondly, we're opening ourselves to do this sort of bullying tactic by China and a whole bunch of other areas. So now I was stunned that especially a former prime minister would actually have even suggested that. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Now that the Michaels are home, where do we go from here vis-a-vis China? and I wonder if you could sort of dovetail this back to what you were talking about

before, like, how should Canada approach Canada-China relations? You know, it does seem like in the last few years, this liberal government has avoided taking a really strong position against China. Many believe that's because they were trying to get the Michaels back, but what now? China will keep on presenting major challenges to us, while at the same time giving us the carrots of increased trade, increased business, etc. So you may have conflicts within Canada where some would say, well, business and trade is more important than actually living up to our principles and our interests. I think there's another way to approach this. And this is one which ties in again, with something which President Biden

is proposing is to have the democratic countries of the world who are aware that China and Russia and some other countries like Iran are presenting major challenges to democracies worldwide. And we have to start thinking about having joint actions to challenge China, to challenge Russia in some of these areas where they are basically violating the fundamental rules of international law. We have to look at where their weaknesses lie. Trade is one of them. Well, here's the, so trade, obviously, but here's another example, like the Beijing Winter Olympics are coming up in just months. So are we supposed to just go to them? Well, this is going to be a huge challenge, not just for Canada as a country, but for those

individual athletes who obviously have trained for a long, long time to participate in it. And as you know, there is divisions even amongst them as to whether they should go or not, as with both the organizers in Canada and the country itself. And one of the things which I think we have to start thinking about is even if we go, we should have some way of presenting our displeasure as to what occurred in it. And if we don't go, one of the things we should suggest is that never again should an international games organization consider even contemplating having any form of international games where the country is essentially conducting atrocities which could amount even to genocide as is actually occurring in Xinjiang at the moment. Right, with the Uyghurs,

yeah. That's right, with the Uyghurs. So I think it's going to be a really tough position for our athletes if they do go is to come up with some sort of strategy to show the displeasure. Apparently they're not even allowed to show any open opposition, but I think there could be ways of that. But if they don't go, I think Canada should think about having a longer-term strategy to basically present a view that international games should not occur in a country which is committing such massive atrocities that it could amount to the most serious violations of international humanitarian law and international human rights law. Okay. Errol, thank you so much for this. Thank you. It was really, really fascinating. You're very welcome.

All right, so before we go today, while Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig have come home, there is another Canadian citizen who is still in Chinese detention. Uyghur activist Hussein Jalil fled China and moved to Canada as a refugee. He was visiting family in Uzbekistan in 2006 when he was extradited to China on terrorism charges and given a life sentence. Human rights groups said he got an unfair trial. China refuses to recognize his Canadian citizenship and is not giving Canadian diplomats the chance to help him. Amnesty International says he has spent much of the past 15 years in solitary confinement. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson.

Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow.