Front Burner - The debate over vaccine passports is here

Episode Date: May 7, 2021

As European countries make plans to reopen tourism, this week the federal government promised certification to get Canadians travelling again. We look at the massive practical and ethical implications of vaccine passports with help from Maclean’s writer Marie-Danielle Smith.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Anthony Nérestan, sitting in for Jamie Poisson. Canadians need to be able to have the right kind of certification for international travel, because as we know, Canadians will want to travel internationally when things subside in terms of COVID,

and they will want to be able to ensure they have the right credentials to do that from a vaccination perspective. That's Health Minister Patti Hajdu speaking on CBC Radio's The House about vaccine passports. Canada is not the only country working on a plan to jumpstart international travel with some sort of system to validate immunization or negative COVID status of citizens. The European Union is betting on what they're calling a digital green certificate to bring the tourism industry back to life. This morning, word that Americans could once again be taking off for destinations across the Atlantic as early as this summer. And while it may sound promising to many, a Canadian vaccine passport

poses massive logistical and ethical questions. And really, it's about a lot more than just tourism. There's also a growing debate about what vaccine certification can mean domestically. Marie Danielle Smith is a Maclean's writer in Ottawa who's been following this story, and she's here with me now to talk about the latest. Hi, Mary Danielle. It's really nice for you to make time for this podcast. Hey, glad to be here. So let's start with the basics. It sounds like a simple idea, but really it's not. Can you break down exactly what is a vaccine passport?

really it's not. Can you break down exactly what is a vaccine passport? Yeah, so what we're talking about is a form of proof that a person has been fully vaccinated against COVID-19. So if we look at vaccine passports that already exist in other countries, these essentially usually consist of a scannable code, like a QR code, which is linked up to a health database where your vaccination record is stored. And then that code can either be displayed on a digital phone app, or it could be printed out on a piece of paper and then cross-referenced with your ID. The same technology is also being used to show proof of recent negative test results as an alternative too. So this idea of a vaccine passport, I'm pretty sure it's got a lot of people dreaming about a return to how things were before, you know, traveling pre-pandemic. But I believe this is also a concept that can be applied domestically, right? Yeah, and that's where you start to get into some

really thorny issues. As soon as this sort of document becomes available, there are lots of potential applications for it beyond international travel. A really basic one would be using it for interprovincial travel here at home, going from one province A really basic one would be using it for interprovincial travel here at home, going from one province to another. Another would be requiring proof of vaccination in certain workplaces. So we think about hospitals or congregate living situations where the risks are very high. But then you get beyond that, and there's an argument that this makes sense for large gatherings. New York State has already developed a certificate. It's called the Excelsior Pass,

which sounds exciting. And it's being used for entry to bigger venues like sports events. Baseball lovers are slowly making their return to the ballpark. But before you can get into a ball game or many other large events in New York, you have to prove that you're COVID free. In New York, one way you can do that is with an Excelsior Pass. And that starts by getting... And in places like Israel, its use has become even more ubiquitous than that. To get in, people have to show their new green passports. They can be on their phone or on a piece of paper as proof that they've been vaccinated or have recovered from COVID-19.

So you mentioned the system in Israel. I believe it's called a green pass. What can you tell me about what we've learned from their system in terms of how it's been applied so far? Yeah, so it was introduced fairly early before, I believe, before a majority of Israelis had gotten both doses of the vaccine. So what it did was it allowed lots of people to resume their lives sooner than they would have expected. So it's being widely used for entry to places like gyms, restaurants, movie theaters, really everyday venues. And with case counts going way down recently, Israel announced that events where people have the green pass don't need additional measures anymore, like masks and distancing. So basically, people can get back to normal. Of course, it hasn't gone completely without a hitch. There were some early cybersecurity concerns, and the system excluded

residents of Israel who were not citizens because of the way its health database is set up. So there were concerns about discrimination as well in those early days. Basically, it's still sort of a work in progress in terms of how it's applied and working out those kinks. Here at home, we heard this week Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and several other ministers confirmed that the federal government is part of these ongoing international talks about vaccine certification. How we actually roll that out in alignment with partners and allies around the world is something that we're working on right now to coordinate. Mary Danielle, what do we know so far about Canada's current stance on this issue

and also how it's evolved over the last, say, a couple of months? Yeah, so a couple of months ago, the Prime Minister wasn't ready to say all that much about vaccine passports. He was saying that it's something that they were talking about. He was a bit skeptical about how they could be used domestically, but for international travel, it was kind of on the radar. But yeah, this week, things have really ramped up a bit more. And I think it's Transport Minister Omar Al-Ghabra who went the farthest in saying that he would support a common system to use for international travel. So Canada and presumably other G7 partners would maybe use the same system or standards to do that. Like you said, we are examining measures and gradual reopening. What are the thresholds that we're looking at? What are the measures in place that we need to

maintain as we gradually reopen, like testing, like tracing, like a vaccination certificate? And it's really important that we have a coordinated effort with our allies, with our partners, with other countries around the world. So these are the conversations that are taking place today. But there's not much indication that the whales are actually in motion on doing so, even though the chief science advisor in a recent report basically warned that they need to get their act together soon. She said, yeah, she said governments need to come up with a national framework on what vaccine passports would look like before the private sector takes matters into its own hands, as

it has in the U.S., for example. Based on that report, like how much pressure is it on Canada in terms of the timeline and how they need to get this done as quickly as possible? Well, you've already got other countries road testing their solutions, right? Countries like Estonia have already been using the pass. Israel obviously has a very well-developed system. And the European Union has announced that this summer, they'll allow American tourists who are fully vaccinated to get there. So they're in talks with the US government on the system. So everybody's talking about it. And the Canadian government really needs to set the wheels in motion if it hasn't already. And what makes it

really complicated here is, of course, that all the provinces and territories need to get on board on some kind of national standard. And it's really hard to get them to agree on anything, right? So you have some provinces like Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba saying, of course, we've got vaccination certificates coming. We're figuring out what that's going to look like. But then you've got places like Alberta, where the Premier Jason Kenney said a couple months ago that he thought, like, any form of documentation or certification at all could be a violation of privacy. So based on those challenges, you know, different provinces saying different things, is Canada really ready to implement this type of nationwide system of vaccine certification? Like, how prepared is Canada to do this? Not very prepared. So beyond the sort of political issues around getting the provinces to agree on

something, we've got some major logistical problems. There is no national system for health data in Canada, and there is no national system to record vaccines in Canada. So Canada has a very patchwork system for its health data. Before the pandemic, most provinces didn't have any electronic way of recording adult immunizations. It was basically a paper system. And even the health data that was digitized, different provinces use different systems and they don't communicate with each other, right? And within provinces, you have different health regions using systems that don't talk to each other. So it would be a really massive undertaking to get everybody in line with the same set of standards and have them all feed into this mythical national vaccine passport system that federal

ministers are talking about. So that's interesting because, you know, Canada, there's this sense that it really needs to get its act together. It really needs to speed things up. Meanwhile, the European Union, it's already announced plans to allow Americans with a vaccine passport to visit Europe this summer. And the EU Commission has even recommended easing restrictions to allow for non-essential overseas travel. So I'm just asking from a Canadian perspective, does this mean Canadians would soon be able to travel to EU countries for non-essential reasons? I am confident that ministers and diplomats are working on that very actively right now. And so because of our sort of logistical hurdles that we have to get over,

the big question is, what would the EU accept as a vaccine passport from Canada? What criteria would it need to have for them to be satisfied that it's authentic? And if we feel that we're falling behind, we may start to rely, rather than this sort of ideal system, we may start to rely on alternatives. Like, can we have rapid testing at the airport? Can we show a proof of a negative test result? And is that going to be satisfying to the countries where we want Canadians to be able to go? Can you tell me a bit about the EU digital green certificate and how it's meant to work? Yeah, so essentially, this is similar to what Israel has in place. And similar to what other European countries are testing. Estonia has

another digital pass that it's been road testing already. Now the EU and the U.S. are in talks to allow Americans to visit this summer. A COVID-19 passport called a digital green certificate could be required. It would say whether people have recovered from COVID-19, have tested negative or are fully vaccinated and list which vaccine. Because for the EU at least you had to have been vaccinated with a vaccine that's authorized in the EU so if you got the Sputnik vaccine for example you're out of luck at least as of now. The app would also show whether you tested negative for COVID or whether you've recovered recently from an infection and then each country I guess within the EU and outside of the EU would

be responsible for figuring out a system to create and authenticate that kind of documentation, which is where we run into a bunch of issues here in Canada. But there will be common standards for what they should look like. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples,

I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. The thing I'm still trying to wrap my head around is really understanding the real purpose of a vaccine passport. The fact that people are still or may still be able to pass on COVID after they're vaccinated. Can you tell me a bit about why countries are so eager to implement a system like this? Yeah, that's a really good question. So there's some evidence that suggests that vaccinated people might be less likely to transmit the virus, but we haven't seen any scientific study that confirms that they

don't pass it along. So when I talk to experts about this, they basically told me that it's about calculated risk, especially when we're talking about countries with high access to a COVID-19 vaccine, where in some places we've seen case numbers go down and death numbers go down. Are you in those places, are you risking more by letting in vaccinated people who have a small chance of carrying in the virus? Or are you risking more by keeping the economy shut down, right? Keeping travel shut down, preventing families from reuniting, preventing some international business from taking place. So there's a sense that the demand to get back to normal will just be too great to ignore,

and that that calculated risk is worth it. One thing that's interesting, I'd like for you to tell me a bit about how in line Canada's policy is expected to be with the policy that we're expecting from the European Union. And the reason why I ask this is because it's interesting that we've been talking about Canada, the EU, but we also haven't brought up the United States yet and what's going on over there. So I wonder if you can kind of tackle that for me. Yeah, so I mean, in terms of how in line we're going to be with the EU, I would actually point to a clue in something the prime minister said about the US.

He said, even if the United States doesn't require Canadians to show proof of vaccination upon entry, we might still require that of them. So to me, that implies that Canada may be prepared to go much farther than where the US is prepared to go on the system. And given our trade deal with the EU and our many ties with the EU, I would expect our policies to be really quite aligned with theirs. You know, we're talking about the feasibility of this thing. What are the implications? But, you know, a policy decision of this magnitude during a global thing, what are the implications, but you know, a policy decision of

this magnitude during a global pandemic, what are the major ethical concerns surrounding vaccine passports? We're talking when it comes to use internationally, but also domestically. Yeah, so internationally, it's interesting, the World Health Organization actually is working on a set of international standards for vaccine certificates. So they are kind of nodding to the idea that this is happening and may be inevitable in a way. But they've said, you guys shouldn't do this yet. Countries should not use vaccine passports for international travel. And there's two major reasons for that. One is that we're still waiting on the science to confirm that vaccinated people can't carry the virus into a country, even if somebody is protected themselves.

And the second is where we get more into the ethics. I mean, the vast majority of the world doesn't have access to enough vaccine to make this remotely feasible. Right. And they might not for years. So we're really talking about like a subset of the world's wealthiest nations having access to something and then the rest not. So you worry this exacerbates like sort of the segregation between the haves and have-nots of the world. And there are also countries that have access to vaccines, but just not the same ones that have been approved for the most part in the Western world, I presume. Right, right. So that's another issue. Like how do you how do you align it? How do you create international standards

when it's even hard to create standards within a country or within a group of countries, right? On this issue, what are we hearing from bioethicists when it comes to, like, the challenges and potential pitfalls when it comes to a vaccine passport? Yeah, so I spoke with Francoise Baylis, who's a bioethicist at Dalhousie University, and she raised a number of concerns. Internationally, she feels that this sort of haves and have nots system is a bit of a recipe for disaster. And she's strongly hoping that Canada will follow the WHO's recommendation not to go ahead with using vaccine passports.

But domestically is where you start to see even more pitfalls. And we talk about situations of discrimination against different groups. Something she pointed out is that there could be situations where already marginalized groups see that marginalization be exacerbated. You get into a situation where frontline staff maybe are in a position where they're determining the authenticity of a certificate. It could create new avenues, for example, for racial discrimination. So there's a lot that we need to be thinking about here. People are worried about all kinds of discrimination issues, right? Like people who can't get a vaccine for medical reasons or religious reasons, people who are vaccine hesitant or anti-vaccine, like does a vaccine

passport system make them more confident in our institutions? Not necessarily, right? There's all these kind of questions hanging over. So what we basically need right now is for Canadian leaders to step up and tell us what they will and won't allow so that we can kind of have this conversation beyond the very kind of vague pronouncements of the ministers this week. Speaking of conversations, you know, we're talking about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, world leaders really trying to tackle this issue. Can you tell me, like, how do Canadians feel about the idea of a vaccine passport? Yeah, so an Ipsos poll that came out at the end of April, it was an international poll, actually, but it looked at Canada and it found about 78% of Canadians agree that vaccine passports could be used at the border. So that's a pretty high

percentage. And it's actually higher than in the US, where 70% are in favor of that, and where the issue has taken on a really political tone, which perhaps is why the Biden administration has decided not to go with a national approach there. There's some other numbers interesting in Canada, about 61% of Canadians are expecting, whether they agree with it or not, expecting that vaccine passports would be widely used in Canada by the end of this year. And 65% agree that large venues should use vaccine passports to make more crowded events safer. But then the number goes way down when you talk about places like restaurants or malls where only 47% think that that would be okay. Has there been some pushback on this issue and on this concept as a whole, whether it's here or abroad? Yeah, there has. So you have groups that

are already sort of against any health restrictions that are in place now, groups that, for example, are anti-masker, that have raised concerns about vaccine passports and that have sort of hinted that they're willing to take matters into court cases and human rights tribunal cases to test them out. You're also seeing this in the U.S. where it's even starker than that. You've got politicians generally on their right wing saying that they're skeptical of vaccine passports. You have states like Florida that have strongly advised the private sector not to go ahead with developing such systems. And you have high profile people like Donald Trump Jr. accusing, you know, vaccine passport systems of being like Chinese style authoritarianism being brought to American shores. This is about whether you believe our country

should continue to be a country that honors the ideals of our founders in defense of personal liberty and freedom, or if America is going to go down the same authoritarian path as communist China. It is that simple. So you've got this really kind of heady political rhetoric around it. And we're seeing a little bit of that here too. And I think as the national conversation heats up in Canada over this issue, we're only going to see more of that. Any sense of what kind of wider debate we can expect in Canada about this issue, like, and not just long term, but really in the near future? Yeah, I mean, I think, like I said before, are we comfortable with having provincial borders shut to unvaccinated people?

Are we comfortable with employers needing workers to be vaccinated? Are we OK with needing a vaccine to go to a sports game? Are we OK with needing it to go to the restaurant? And what's our comfort level with providing this information about our health, right? This is really normally really private, personal information. How do we feel about giving that to anybody who asks for it, even if it's not, you know, an official government capacity? Maybe it's, maybe it's a bouncer, maybe it's a hostess at a restaurant, right? So, so I think these are the questions we should all be thinking about, because we're going to be called upon to decide as a country and as in various

jurisdictions what we're okay with and how it's going to work. You know the last 16 months have felt like a real blur and here we are now talking about vaccine passports. It's crazy. Mary Danielle thank you very much for taking the time to help us unpack this fairly complex issue and making it sound simple. So thank you very much for taking the time and have a good day. You're welcome. You too. Thanks. That's all for today. As always, Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show was produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chow, Shannon Higgins, Derek Vanderwyk, Ali Janes, Ashley Fraser, and Tatiana Furtado. Our sound design was by Austin Pomeroy and Mackenzie Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Boombox Sound.

Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Front Burner is Nick McCabe-Locos, and I'm Anthony Nérestin in Montreal. Thank you for listening to Front Burner. Jamie Poisson is back on Monday.