Front Burner - The double-edged sword of political memes

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Since US President Joe Biden endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris to take over as the next Democratic nominee, the US election campaign has been awash in memes.Memes about coconut trees, weirdos, Brat and even intimate relationships with couches.  But as both U.S. and Canadian political parties are learning, the power of the internet is a double edged sword that can energize campaigns or severely backfire. So when do memes work? Why do they fall flat? And what is the risk of trying to manifest the internet in real life? Rebecca Jennings is a senior correspondent at Vox covering internet culture, and Elamin Abdelmahmoud is an author and the host of CBC’s Commotion.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. You're going to pull up some of this stuff for Rebecca? Yeah. Because we just really want, in real time, for you to be able to bask in how talented our political staffers are here.

No, yeah, I cannot wait to see these Canadian, these hot, fresh Canadian memes. It's embarrassing. Rebecca, you will die. It's probably what you think it is. It's a bad time. It's not. It's a bad time.

I'm going to put in an FOI for that. Okay. All right. So today on the show, we have, as you might already be able to tell, two chronically online people. Author and host of CBC's Commotion, Elamin Abdel-Mamoud is back. And Rebecca Jennings is a senior correspondent at Vox covering internet culture. And we're going to talk about how over the last few weeks, the U.S. election campaign has been awash in memes. Coconut memes, couch sex memes, weird memes,

brat memes. Political memes are a double-edged sword that can energize or deal a huge blow to campaigns. So when do they work and why? When do they fall flat? And as you're going to see, this does seem to be a bit of a specialty for Canadian parties right now. And what is the risk of trying to manifest the internet into real life? All right, let's do it. All right, Elamin, Rebecca, it is great to have you both. Rebecca, let me start with you. Just give me a preview of what your feeds have looked like in recent weeks. How much Kamala is there? What kind of content is it? Yeah, you would not be surprised to know that much of my feed is extremely Kamala pilled, extremely coconut maxing, very Kamala-ex, Charlie-ex-ex's brat. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you.

I'm just living that life on Dutch cult classic. This is pretty inescapable, especially in the last two weeks, as she has been our presumptive Democratic nominee. But it's actually been happening really since Biden's really terrible debate performance in the end of June, which is when we started to see these memes being like, what if what if you step down and what if we got Kamala as the nominee? How crazy would that be? And then when it actually happened you obviously saw a ton more of uh the jokes and the discourse and both earnestly and ironically uh talking people talking about this i want to get into that with you uh more in just one minute

but first guys help help me out here maybe i, you want to take this first. Is Kamala brat? Just explain that to me. Is she actually brat? Jamie, Kamala is a former district attorney, turned attorney general, turned senator, turned vice president. No, she's not brat. There's nothing especially brat about Kamala at all. about Kamala at all. There's nothing that communicates that Kamala is even in the same universe as Charli XCX's album, which has kind of defined the summer this summer. The idea of being brat is the idea of being messy and being carefree and struggling with a lot of decisions about you know what it means to be like in your 30s yeah it's 2 a.m and she's out there

in a sheer white dress wearing last night's makeup all coquettish in the pictures with the flash on worships lana del rey in her airpods yeah and a lot of people have adopted it as like, this is what it means. This is the sort of ethos it's going to define this summer. In no universe does that intersect with Kamala Harris, the vice president of the United States. There's no universe. The only intersection is that CharlieXCX tweeted,

Kamala is brat. And that, unfortunately for everybody, killed Bratzummer. Did it kill Bratzummer? It feels like it's also resonating with a lot of people. Why? It is so Jover, bro. It's not. It is.

I mean, I think the idea of CharlieXCX weighing in on this discourse by saying Kamala is brat, it was funny. And then everyone took it and then ran with it. And now I'm sad. So to me, it kind of feels like Brat Summer ended on that day that Charlie tweeted that. I actually have to say I made one of the biggest factual errors that I have made recently in this podcast when I said that Charlie XCS endorsed Kamala. And that actually went to air. And I'm embarrassed.

Oh, no. Well, that's okay. I'm embarrassed. We're fixing it today. Rebecca, let us get back to what you were talking about earlier. It wasn't that long ago that some progressives were calling Kamala Katmala, right? Because of her record on crime. And just talk to me a bit more about what has changed in this moment that's been overtaken with people circulating edits of Kamala dancing over chapel roan songs or even

changing the words to be about her, right? Yeah, and I think there's a lot of talk in about the vibe shift within the democratic party and most of the time they're talking about how once biden dropped out there was like a really like this big surge in like hope and excitement and like fun for the first time since like literally 2008 like but i also think there's been a huge vibe shift even from the 2016 election when i think a lot of the memes and internet chatter was sort of just like, well, Hillary's kind of like lame, but she's also she's a shoo-in to be our first female president. And it was also like very much during the girl boss era where,

you know, the fact that we were going to have our first woman president was it was really exciting because it just felt like, well, it's her turn. And everything felt a lot more earnest back then. I'm just chilling in Cedar Rapids. And I think like since the Trump era, there's just been a complete shift in like nihilism kind of among the Democratic Party where it's like, well, we're never going to get out of this. Like this is it's so over basically. And the idea that like for once, the Democrats actually like did something about their, you know, very problematic candidate and handed it to someone who is, you know, more exciting to people, like can form a sentence. Like these are shifts that no one, no Democrat actually expected to happen. And so the fact that that was possible is just like, well, that's so much more exciting than, you know,

Kamala's more complicated legacy on criminal justice, where it's like, we have a little bit of something to be excited about. And that's worth not necessarily celebrating, you know, Kamala's more complicated legacy on criminal justice where it's like we have a little bit of something to be excited about. And that's worth not necessarily celebrating, but like at least acknowledging and knowing that, you know, this is not a perfect candidate, but also like these are our options. And, you know, let's go with it. And to slightly rebut Elamin's Bratz ever being over. This is where I was going to go. Yeah. rebut Elephine's Bratz ever being over. This is where I was going to go. Yeah.

I think we're in like a post-Brat era, which is still kind of Brat because Brat is, you know, very ironic and yet, like we said, like messy and doesn't really make a ton of sense. And I think like you can be Brat and still be problematic

and you can, it can still be Bratz summer, even though everyone's kind of over it. Like that kind of makes it funnier. And I've really enjoyed everyone on my channel being like, oh, my God, stop. And I'm like, you're kind of making this funny to me. Like, I'm like, now I just like want to keep it going in spite. And it's like, yeah, like people will do brat memes, like knowing that it's sort of like,

OK, well, now that it's being talked about on CNN, like no one gives a shit. And it's so obviously lame. It's so not cool. Look, I'm honestly I had to look this person up today. There's this person named Charlie. She's got a lot of music online. She had called it brat summer, which means like you're messy and bold. What is this brat summer?

Because I thought he was calling her a brat. But it's not that Kamala Harris is a brat. She is brat. But the song's still bang and like, it's still fun. So like, whatever. Like, you know?

Rebecca, do you want Kamala to do the apple dance? Is that what you're telling me? Because the day that that happens, I think we're cooked. That would be bad, right?

Like if she like, showed up at the DNC next month with like a giant coconut tree behind her, like that would not be good. Well, here's the thing. It's like,

it's both effective and not effective. So the thing about memes is that they are a visual language that is recognizable for a lot of people a lot of people sort of speak the language of all of these memes like the idea that kamala's brat situates it in a universe that like if you're even a little bit online you're quite familiar with that's useful because then you don't have to define Kamala with her record. You don't have to think about what she's done as attorney general. You don't have to think about what she's done as district attorney. You can just kind of focus on the idea that she is the moment, to quote Wendy Williams. I feel like to me, the reason this works is because they don't

really acknowledge the memes themselves. Kamala herself doesn't necessarily acknowledge the memes in that way. She doesn't directly play into them. I feel like the moment that she does, it becomes like strategy. And also like capital S strategy. And then suddenly I think you might have lost some people. well just expand on that for me because what you're hitting at here is when a meme political

meme works and when it doesn't work yeah and just flesh that out a little bit more yeah so like the here's the beautiful thing about kamala harris is that she's sort of a meme creating machine on her own like she's someone who just speaks in a way that is just a little bit odd a little bit interesting that is you know people don't typically speak in that way and so when she is on the phone and she says we did it joe that you know right after receiving like the information that she and joe Biden have been elected, it becomes a meme because she did it in this odd voice that you don't really hear people speaking in. We did it. We did it, Joe. You're going to be the next president of the United States. The speech that she gave, perfectly cogent speech, the White House, but just has this odd little pause and odd little laugh in it that makes it very memeable, which is to say it makes it very remixable. And I feel like when a meme is effective is when you're not trying to actually put it out there and say, look at me, I'm trying to use this meme as capital S strategy.

And it's people who are running with it kind of organically. Thank you to coconut tree, bitch. You're not even no context. It has to be authentic. It has to be authentic. I think we're going to go through in a little bit some ones that are not so authentic. But Rebecca, I want to ask you about another line of attack that the Democrats have been using towards the Republicans, calling them weird, right? And the Internet has basically taken up that call. I've seen many memes with Republicans doing things like Tucker Carlson complaining about gender politics with M&Ms. The other big change is that the brown M&M has, quote, transitioned from high stilettos to lower block heels. Also less sexy.

That's progress. M&Ms will not be satisfied until every last cartoon character is deeply unappealing and totally androgynous. Until the moment you wouldn't want to have a drink with any one of them. That's the goal. When you're totally turned off,

we've achieved equity. They've won. J.D. Vance saying people with children deserve more votes. Let's give votes to all children in this country, but let's give control over those votes to the parents of those children. When you go to the polls in this country as a parent, you should have more power. You should have more of an ability to speak your voice in our Democratic Republic than people who don't have kids. Let's face the consequences. Trump bringing up Hannibal Lecter at a rally like he's a real live person.

And that also seems to be relatively successful. Like, would you agree with that? And then, you know, maybe talk to me a little bit more about why you think that is. Yeah, I mean, I think it's been hugely successful. I think like for a long time, this was sort of the line of attack from the Republicans. It was like, look at these like blue haired soy liberals, you know, like, look how weird they are with, you know, they're not going to church every week, stuff like that. And I think that was hugely effective for them because it sort of brought like culture war stuff into like a very clear dividing line. Whereas I think now the fact that like the Republican Party has gone totally off the rails with like following these insane in-cell adjacent ideologies that are like only exist in the weird like red pill manosphere, that's the base that

they're speaking to, not like normal conservative Americans. And I think the fact that Democrats now can be like, hey, you guys are actually the weird ones and be right about it because they do have weird ideas. It's not only that they're like making weird tweets and stuff. It's like calling childless women or like step parents, not real parents or not real human beings. It's like that's not a popular policy. And sort of like that kind of candor of like, hey, we're calling it like we see it. Y'all are weird and i think it's hugely effective when we're talking about a vice presidential candidate where when someone made up a joke that he like fucked a couch and wrote about

it in hillbilly elegy people were like yeah i believe that yes and and so this is a really good example let me just give a little bit more context oh that's fantastic yeah why don't you explain that one uh it was a joke that somebody said that jd vance had sex with a couch wrote about it in his book in a book which he didn't but anyways it has gone absolutely wild do you love couches with their luscious curves and supple fabrics do you wish there was a way to love couches even more introducing jcing J.D. Jelly. There's all these pictures of couches everywhere on the Internet. So I mean, really, this is an example of a meme that has been very successful in like taking down a candidate or contributing to.

Yeah. I mean, look, before last week, I knew one thing about J.D. Vance and now I know two. He has sex with couches? Well, that I know two. That's how he has sex with coaches. Well, that I know that I'm going to fact check that he did not write about it in his book. That's the correct fact check here. That's the efficacy of a political meme, right? Is it could sort of become the dominating story about a candidate so much so that this guy's been out there. He's been doing stump speeches every day, and it has not really shaken how consistently that joke keeps coming up this is the second week of the of the couch cycle and the dolphin porn thing that that he searched dolphin porn i

know it's not great for him this is what i'm saying yeah but look i don't i feel like this conversation has been giving a lot of credit to the Democrats up until this moment. I just want to be clear, like these guys aren't always so hot at the Internet. Well, in fact, before this, they were actually actively quite bad at it. Like, I don't know if you agree, Rebecca, but to me, like it feels like the shift went from Democrats adopting the Joe Biden voice, trying to use like high minded ideas of like we got to fight for the soul of america said it many times and it's no more true or real when we think about the events of january 6th we are in a battle for the soul of america a battle that by the grace of god and the goodness and greatness of this nation we will win and then now they're like, these guys are weird. So in many ways, they've kind of used the mirror image of the Republican playbook for the last few years by saying, yeah, we can speak common political language too. And it's kind of working. Rebecca, remember when Hillary Clinton told everyone to Pokemon go to the polls?

Yes, I do. Because we're going to have a lot of jobs. Jobs from building infrastructure to coding. Creating new apps. I don't know who created Pokemon Go. But I'm trying to figure out how we get them to have Pokemon go to the polls. Just feel like I want to get that in there. That didn't work. That's a really good example of someone whose persona does not match the vibe of the internet.

And I think because Hillary and Biden, they're both extremely not online people and have been in this system for just so long. And then you have someone who by contrast is like your fun aunt that you want to have six margaritas with. And I think it's been smart that they haven't like, you know, she's not going on CNN doing like referencing Charlie XCX. Like, like I think it's, it says a lot that her ad was with Beyonce, not with like Chapel Roan or like Charlie XCX or something.

And that's why I think it hasn't really been hurting so far, but yeah, I don't think you're going to see her being like, yeah, coconuts on TV. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

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To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to do a bit of a segue here and talk a little bit about Canadian politics and how political memes are used here. Are you sure you want to do that, Jamie? I do. Okay? I do. Okay. I do. Let's do it.

Rebecca, our producer Derek is going to send you a meme that was released this week, I think on the Twitter account of our environment minister, Stephen Gilboa. And just, you haven't seen it yet, just tell me how you feel. Wait, there's no sound? I don't think there's sound. Oh, that's't seen it yet. Just tell me how you feel. Wait, there's no sound? I don't think there's sound. Oh, that's so lame. Okay, they can't even like make a real video? God, no, this sucks.

This sucks. This has nothing to do with Brat. Just describe for me what's going on for people that have not seen this. So like we're seeing basically like the Brat album cover, Lime Green has Brat in the middle and then it says Summer. And then there's a animation that crosses out brat and just writes housing and then interlaid with a bunch of headlines about housing housing is brat i think

is the move yeah yeah but there's no sound like i feel like there's no artfulness to this like i would be willing to forgive if it was like you know they got a person who's really good at video animation to like line it up with a song or something no none of that that's so sad can i just say i want rebecca to review my memes before i post them all the time to be like this could use some work i have some notes yeah because that was great alamin what did you think when you saw that meme and and the liberals let me let's talk about the liberals first like um they've been trying lately uh prime minister trudeau has gone on all sorts of podcasts and various youtube things uh randy bossano posted a video with sabrina carpenter's espresso That's me, I guess so. I'm working late. Cause I'm a singer.

Oh, we look so cute. The text partly said, I'm working late cause I'm a liberal. You know, but they're not catching on, right? They're not catching on. And, you know, remember in 2015, Trudeau did have that meme where he was, someone was like, why do you have all these women in your cabinet? And he was like, well, it's 2015. I understand one of the priorities for you was to have a cabinet that was gender balanced.

Why was that so important to you? Because it's 2015. So what are they trying to do here? Why is it not working? Honestly, when I see the housing is Brad, I see an imperfect understanding of memes. Not even imperfect. I see a bad understanding of memes, which is to say that like, you think that you can sort of see something that people are talking about or excited about or sharing a lot. And just by simply sort of adding your own agenda to it, that automatically makes it a meme. That's not how memes work.

Like the idea is you are remixing something that is already kind of out in the ether, but adding some kind of personal value to it. And so I'm working late because I'm a liberal is just not going to do it. You know, like that's just great song. Love espresso. But I think like no one is having fun when you do that. Like not the person who created it, not the person who is consuming it. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of what memes are.

By contrast, because it's 2015 thing, that was a perfectly organic moment, right? Like it was like, it sort of felt organic to who Trudeau is to respond in that way when being posed by that question. And then people organically started sharing it. And then it was later that the party was like, yeah, we'll also share it in the same way. And that was, by the way, after they won the election, that was him sort of introducing his cabinet. And so there's something to be said about not understanding

where the organic energy is and actually using it. I'm like, that's what I see when I see that. There is a lot of that in Canadian politics, particularly, is that I think our politics is a little bit behind when it comes to how we use memes. We're not very good at creating our own memes in those moments. And we kind of seem to misunderstand what a meme is, to be honest with you. I will have to say, and I would be interested to know if you agree with me here, that of all of our political parties, I find that the conservatives seem to be trying to create these moments that are organic more or do maybe a better job. Like I'm thinking about Polyev, how he's often saying that like Trudeau is wacko or that

wacko stuff. Like I'm not necessarily saying it's working or not working, but they seem to be like a little bit more plugged in, in terms of how to speak to that audience. Right. You're perfectly correct when you say that. I think the conservatives are very effective at that because I think they fundamentally understand who they are speaking to and they live on the same internet that they do. And that is like 80% of anything that spreads through meme is like understanding

the person that you're trying to you know communicate to because you're trying to say hey you and me we share a universe here that's why this image is gonna make sense to you yeah and you're like tapping into that kind of rage or like the subversiveness as opposed to being like everything is so great look at how happy we are i think that's also part of it too. Yeah, housing is not brat, Jamie. That doesn't make any sense at all. It also doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense at all. Whereas a conservative meme isn't going to be a bit more effective.

Yeah. Rebecca, just because the other one was so much fun. Can we just do one more installment of you looking at Canadian political memes? We're going to send you one more. This is from our new Democratic Party, the NDP party. In theory, they should be good at speaking to the kids. So here's a tweet from the NDP. It says, who else loves venn diagrams i'm assuming referencing kamala harris's noted love of venn diagrams remember venn diagrams those three circles

right and then let's just see where they overlap you will not be surprised because i have constructed a venn diagram on this remember those three circles how they overlap i love venn diagrams so i just do whenever you're dealing with conflict pull out a venn diagram right and so you know the three circles and so it's three circles one's cancel one's corporate one's handouts and it just in every single box it says cancel corporate handouts which just at a base understanding of venn diagrams level does not make sense uh just not what venn diagrams are doesn't even make sense like visually or like like literally like this is the greatest day of my life rebecca thank you so much i'm so deeply deeply confused at what they were trying to do and i also i'm looking at their response

tweets and it's like someone's just like what someone's like that's not how venn diagrams work and one's like ironically anyone who actually does love venn diagrams would be offended by this disastrous failure to use one correctly that's hilarious how is this not deleted also it got it's massively ratioed which i think it says a lot yeah it sure is um look like we we are we are like having a lot of fun be like this worked or this didn't work but what do we know about whether or not they could actually move the needle in an election right rebecca do we know anything about that can you even measure that can you think of examples from the past where like, you know, I'm kind of thinking of 2016 and Trump, but I don't know what you think about that. No, totally. I think Trump in 2016 is

a perfect example of how to use memes to create this persona that can help win you an election. Obviously, no one can say for sure whether like it was the memes that did it. But I think they did a good job at creating this idea of him being this kind of you know right-wing strong man and a lot of um illustrations at the time that use you know like pepe the frog memes that were sort of like this edgy alt-right kind of image that then helped make him seem cool and alternative to people that were sort of like extremely like black-pilled irony like washedwashed. And I think another example, my favorite example, is in 2004 when Howard Dean let out his little scream. And New Mexico, and we're going to California, and Texas, and New York, and we're going to South

Dakota, and Oregon, and Washington, and Michigan, and then we're going to Washington, D.C. to take back the White House. Yeah! Which kind of lost him the nomination, some say. As a Vermonter, that's always my favorite example. Rebecca, if Howard Dean did the scream now, he'd win 50 states. You think? Oh, totally. He'd win every single one. Because, again, it sort of becomes like, you know, it has the potential to define you as a candidate.

And I think, in a way, there's's like at least i remember who that person is and in this media environment it would go much further than it did back in 2004 well yeah you would see a lot of tweets being like i need to queen out with this bitch i mean what does that tell you though about our modern politics today i'm kind of bummed out you just said that i feel like that depressed me a little no i don't think i don't think he should bum you out but you know what like i'm not gonna say anything that has not been said by neil postman you know and marshall mccluhan like there is something to be said over here yeah we're gonna do it man we're gonna do it which is to say that like the way that a medium changes has nothing to do with the stuff that we put in it.

It has everything to do with our expectations and how it changes our expectations suddenly. So our expectations of a politician changed when we got television and they changed again when we got social media. And they're changing again now when you sort of see the way that people receive a politician through memes. That's a thing to pay attention to because suddenly my association with a politician becomes largely defined through those memes because that's my general impression of them. And maybe it's not just me, but it's a whole lot of other people, whole lot of other people who, if you're starting to vote now, then you're starting to adopt memes as a part of your political geography. Like you go, I'm going to look at the memes about this

person just as I'm going to look at the memes about this person just as I'm going to look at, you know, at the platform that they're putting forward. And so it's not a thing to ignore. I think it's like a thing to incorporate into a politician's identity and ideas are like, this is also now an arena you're going to have to play into. Again, that's take it up with Marshall McLuhan, my dude. That was not me. The meme is the message.

The meme is the message. I was trying not to say it, but I'm glad you said it uh we're not that cool so yeah Derek and I will say it um okay final thoughts uh Rebecca I am wondering if there is a risk here in leaning in too far to the memes and thinking that the memes are the message too much. Like, what do you think happens when parties look too hard at enthusiasm online and start mistaking it for the reality more broadly? Yeah, I don't think any one person can get a super tight grasp on the internet. Like, once you try to do that, your fans will like turn on you immediately because it just comes off as like weird and try hard. But like, I think what they've done well so far is like, again, like not referencing these things at normal political events.

And the idea that now she can like laugh alongside people that are like laughing with her, I think has been a positive thing. I think it adds to the sense of infallibility where it's now you have the Republicans trying to like make edits of her saying the same thing over and over again. What can be unburdened by what has been. What can be unburdened by what has been. What can be unburdened by what has been. What can be. But her online fans are like, okay, that's amazing. Like, what a queen. And so it's really backfiring. And that's because of the fact that she's already become so memeable on the left already. It's like the tax that people used to use on like, you know, Hillary or Biden or whatever, just like aren't landing because she's in on the joke.

And I think being in on the joke is really key here because Trump was totally in on the joke. But yeah, like she's not going to do the apple dance. Thank God. Guys, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Should we do the apple dance, Jamie? I don't even know what the apple dance is. Oh, well, it's like a really easy TikTok dance to a single verse in the Charlie XCX on Apple.

Oh, I've seen that. And then they take their hands and they go down. Okay, Jamie's now doing the Apple dance. I know. No, no, no. Yeah, let's go. Okay, I'm going to go before I embarrass myself further. Okay. Thanks, guys.

Thanks. Okay, that is all for this week. Front Burner was produced by Derek Vanderwyk, Joythes and Gupta, Matt Mews, Ali Janes, and Zoe Pearson. Sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Marco Luciano. Music is by Joseph Shabison. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Jamie Poisson.

Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week. At least that brat summer thing came out in two official languages. It's a brat housing. It did. He posted it in French first. It's a broad housing. It did. He posted it in French first. It's so bad.