Front Burner - The ‘Epstein list’ explained

Episode Date: January 5, 2024

Jeffrey Epstein died in a New York prison cell in 2019, before he could stand trial for allegedly running a sex trafficking ring involving underaged girls and dozens of high-profile clients. Now, court documents including names of Epstein's known associates are being unsealed, shedding new light on the nature and scale of his network. Senior Washington Post editor Marc Fisher walks us through the list so far — which includes Prince Andrew, Bill Clinton and Donald Trump — and why further document releases might never fully answer the remaining mysteries. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Fairless. Despite the gallons of ink that have been spilled covering the Jeffrey Epstein case, there's still so much we don't know. In part, that's because aspects of the legal proceedings have been sealed,

especially the names of people Epstein allegedly associated with. But this week, a New York court began unsealing more documents connected to the late sex offender and financier. Epstein had been accused of running a sex trafficking ring of underage girls, and because of the high-profile people he associated with, there's been a lot of speculation about the nature of these relationships. Prince Andrew and the former president Bill Clinton have been named in newly released court documents relating to the sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. They include associates, friends and alleged victims of the disgraced billionaire who died in jail five years ago. Epstein died by hanging while awaiting trial but his former

girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell, is currently serving a 20-year sentence in connection to the charges he was facing. The documents unsealed this week are bringing new attention to some of the people who've been connected to Epstein and Maxwell over the years. Now, just because someone's name is on the list doesn't mean they've been accused of any wrongdoing, but it does help clarify just who made up Epstein's network. My guest today is Mark Fisher. He's a senior editor at the Washington Post, and he's been covering the Epstein trial for quite a while. He's going to help me sort through these documents and talk about some of the broader implications they may have.

Hey, Mark, thanks for coming on FrontBurner. Absolutely. Good to be with you. Okay, so you and I are speaking on Thursday afternoon, and an initial set of documents has been released, but there's still a lot more to come. So this is going to unfold over the next little while. I want to start with what's been released so far. So I was hoping that you and I could kind of go through some of the big names on the list and also, I guess, the context in which they seem to be connected to Jeffrey Epstein. And maybe the best place to start is with Prince Andrew.

Well, Prince Andrew is actually one of the famous people who we know the most about as far as his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, because he paid the price. He was removed from his duties as a result of what was learned from the allegations that were made by the very young women who Jeffrey Epstein had hanging around his house, whether it be in Florida or New York or on his island. Buckingham Palace has announced that Prince Andrew is returning his royal and military titles to the Queen and will no longer be referred to as his Royal Highness in any official capacity. And so Prince Andrew, his name pops up, as do many other bold-faced names in this new release of about 950 pages of documents. But there's no new detail about wrongdoing on his part. release, which is that far from being kind of this bombshell records dump that some conspiracy theorists and right-wing media outlets portrayed this as, these are mostly just filling in the names or uncovering the names of people we had previously heard about with no new detail about

what they allegedly did or didn't do. And I mean, as you point out, we know Prince Andrew was on the list, obviously, from the past because he had to reach a settlement with Virginia Giuffre back in 2022. But then other names that I think we expected, but maybe didn't know for sure, came out too, right? So Bill Clinton was among them? Yeah, Bill Clinton is an interesting case. This is the former president, clearly we know, traveled with Jeffrey Epstein. His name appears on the flight manifest on Jeffrey Epstein's private plane. So we also know that both men at various points said that they had met.

that both men at various points said that they had met. There's no question there of the veracity of that allegation. What is new in the allegations in this new dump of documents about Bill Clinton is a statement by one of Epstein's victims, Joanna Svolberg. She says that she heard Jeffrey Epstein say that Clinton liked them young. That is a phrase that we've heard attributed to a number of the men who visited Epstein's mansions in Florida and in the Caribbean over the years. So there is no specific allegation that Clinton did visit. Yeah. And just, and to put a fine, you know, even finer point on it too, he's never been accused of anything by any of these element.

Right. Well, he's never been accused certainly by any, uh, credible, reputable source, but what's driving this whole story is, uh, this sort of feeding frenzy or anticipation frenzy, this sort of feeding frenzy or anticipation frenzy on the part of a lot of right-wing media and out in the internet of people who thought, oh, there must be these bombshell secrets in this load of documents that had been edited previously to keep back some of these names. So now that the names are emerging, we're just seeing names, but we're not getting any new facts. And what most of the lawyers involved in this case would say is that's because there really aren't any. These are depositions

where the young women were questioned about what Epstein had done to them. They also talked about things they'd heard around the house, and that's where something comes up like Clinton reportedly liking them young. I also think, as you point out, you know, I think the documents show that because Epstein had this incredibly wide social circle or network, you know, there are people of all political stripes in there. And so, you know, speaking of former presidents, Donald Trump came up in these papers too, right? Right. And Donald Trump is someone who had a longstanding relationship with Epstein.

He was a fixture in Palm Beach. I had a falling out with him a long time ago. I don't think I've spoken to him for 15 years. I wasn't a fan. At one time, the well-connected mega-millionaire drew praise from President Trump back in 2002 before allegations surfaced. Trump saying he was, quote, a terrific guy. Going on to say, it is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. They were neighbors in Palm Beach, almost adjacent mansions, and they socialized. Epstein was a guest at Mar-a-Lago and Trump was someone who Epstein would visit. There's one of the new documents, uh, says that, uh, describes an incident in which, uh, one of the girls, uh, was traveling with Epstein and he said, we're going to New York. And, uh, Epstein said, why don't we just drop by and see Donald Trump?

Right. and see Donald Trump, just implying that he was a close friend who could just drop in. So, again, no allegations of wrongdoing, no allegations of sexual misdeeds, and yet, clearly, they associated with each other. There's plenty of evidence of that. There's photographs. Trump's been asked about it a number of times. He said, oh, you know, they had a falling out. They had once been somewhat friendly, but they had a falling out, and they never spoke again. And there's no evidence to contradict that. I mean, it's kind of ironic or even poetic. I mean, everyone seems to have a picture with Donald Trump before he became president. And it seems like everyone also seemed to have a picture with Jeffrey Epstein, too, right? These guys were just, you know, these guys were circulating at very high levels for a very long time, right? Well, yeah, and that gets to, I think, the most fascinating unanswered question about the Epstein case, which is not any of the conspiracy theories about how he died or any of the notions that there are more bombshell names that we're waiting for. Rather, I think the central question is how and why so many people of such wealth, power, and prominence were drawn to this guy who everyone knew was doing bad stuff. And so, you know, were they there to take advantage of

his ready access to teenage girls, or were they there because he had a lot of money and he dangled possible contributions in front of Harvard University or in front of various politicians? Or were there other reasons? And we really don't have the answers to that, and these documents don't help. That's the fascinating question. I want to come back to that a little later.

But I want to talk about some more of those, you know, famous influential folks that he was associating with. And just before I get into that, I should also mention Trump was never accused of any, you know, wrongdoing with these women or with Epstein either. So moving on through, you know, some, there's a considerable number of names that came out, but just some of the more, the ones that really stuck out to me that there's also Michael Jackson also came out in this list. Yeah. Michael Jackson, also someone who

has been fairly well documented, had inappropriate relationships with young boys. had inappropriate relationships with young boys. His name has not been prominent in the Epstein story. But again, Joanna Soberg, the young victim of Epstein, said that in these new documents that she met Michael Jackson at Epstein's Palm Beach estate. And nothing more than that. No allegation of anything inappropriate, just he was there. And why was he there? Well, a lot of people were there, so we just don't know.

There's also, you know, in the entertainment world, David Copperfield, the magician, came up as well. Can you tell me about him? The same witness, Johanna Soberg, said in the deposition that came out in this new batch of documents that she met Copperfield at one of Epstein's houses and that the magician asked her if she knew that girls were brought in to service Epstein, they would frequently be asked to find other teenagers who could come and make some money doing this as well. And so, if this is true, it shows that Copperfield knew something about how the operation worked. knew something about how the operation worked. And Soberg, who was then a college student, says in the deposition that she remembers seeing another young girl at the dinner at Epstein's house with Copperfield. And she remembers thinking, oh, this girl can't possibly be old enough. She's, you know, maybe high school age. Um, but that's all we know about that. And, uh, as far as we know, Copperfield has not commented yet on this. Yeah. And, you know, again, you know, just to be clear, he's not accused of anything. Uh, and,

and he hasn't, uh, he hasn't returned the Miami Herald had put out calls to reach him and there was, there was no comment from him, at least as of now. I'm curious, are there other people on that list that stood out to you? Is there anyone else that you think is worth mentioning? I mean, there are some second-tier celebrities. There's a very interesting guy named Jean-Luc Brunel, who was a Miami Beach figure. He was kind of a model scout. He's a French guy, right? Right. And there was some allegation along the road

in Epstein's prosecutions that Brunel was someone who was involved in acquiring the services of young girls for Epstein's abuse. Again, no charges have been brought. The only people ever charged in this case were Epstein and his long-term sidekick and former girlfriend, Jalene Maxwell. So Brunel separately was charged with sex trafficking related to his model scout work, charged with sex trafficking related to his model scout work.

And he killed himself in a French jail cell in 2022. Prosecutors say French modeling agent Jean-Luc Brunel was found alone, hanged with bedsheets in his cell at Sante prison early Saturday morning. The 75-year-old had been held in jail for over a year, facing allegations of rape and human trafficking of underage girls. One big name that was on in this new bunch of documents is Thomas Pritzker, who is a high-ranking executive of the Hyatt Hotel Company. And Virginia Ziffra had previously testified that she was told by Epstein to have sex with Pritzker. Pritzker has denied that allegation. We see his name in one of the accounts, one of the depositions that was released. Again, no new information, just a name that had previously been covered up is now there for anybody to see. And just before we move on, because we don't have time to go through all the details, obviously, but Stephen Hawking, the famous astrophysicist and cosmologist, Al Gore,

and a number of other people through the political spectrum, business world, cultural icons, they're in there. This guy had a really, really wide social circle. So I guess, you know, the names are new. A lot of these names, you know, we weren't sure, you know, were associated with him. But are there any surprises that came out of this? Is there anything that we didn't, you know, was really astounding? surprises that came out of this? Is there anything that was really astounding?

No. I mean, the only thing as you look through all the pages, the only thing that really stands out is that we don't get any new facts, and yet the catalog of names of celebrities, powerful people, just

grows and grows, and it really covers the gamut from the worlds of science and education to politics and business. And so it seems no one was immune to the appeal of a visit to Jeffrey Epstein's mansions. And, you know, again, the question that plagues me and has for years is were they in it for the sex? Were they in it for the access or potential access to his money? Certainly some of the Harvard scholars who he very assiduously kind of dated over the years, he was forever holding out the prospect that he was going to make enormous contributions to Harvard, and he did make some large ones. And so it's just a morass, and there's a lot of vague stuff out there, and I know there's

a lot of impatience by people who want to see some real facts emerge. It's not clear they ever will. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%.

That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, you mentioned trying to understand the motivation of the people who were attracted to epstein and his money or his influence but but i guess i'm also i'm also curious about his motivation to cultivate this this really big social circle of you know impressive world-class who's who type folks do you have a sense of what was in it for him, what the attraction was to him to bring in this stable of impressive folks? Exciting episodes in his life that he realized he could cultivate and he could draw attention from all kinds of prominent people simply because of who he was and the trappings of power that he had accumulated.

We don't have a definitive sense of how wealthy he was, but he clearly had a lot of money. His estate has already paid more than $100 million in settlements to the various victims. So there was plenty of money there. And he had the ostentatious trappings of mansions and cars and planes and island to go with it. So I think for him, it was a way to parlay his rather limited professional success. He had one prominent client as a money manager and not a whole lot else, but he was able to parlay the money he made from that into a really overblown sense of his own authority and expertise.

He would portray himself as expert in math and science, and he would go off and want to meet with professors at Harvard about their experiments and their studies. And, you know, clearly was a very bright guy but uh it was not accomplished in any of those areas so it was like a high school dropout too right well exactly he never made it through college and uh he had a series of uh lucky or uh talented uh twists in his life that led him uh to Street and then to his major client, who was the owner of Victoria's Secret. So, he led a life of trying to grab hold of power and fame through others, and always with the idea that he could be somebody's dream come true when it comes to financial contributions.

If only they would give him the attention and stature that he was looking for. And they were happy to do that. The question we always have to ask is, were they doing it because he gave them free flights on his jet? Or because he threw big bashes at his mansions? Or because he gave them accesshes at his mansions, or because he gave them access to sexual misadventures. So the Epstein case goes back a long, a long ways. I mean, so he was first convicted in Florida in 2008.

Jeffrey Epstein went to jail just before 10 this morning. He pleaded guilty in open court. He agreed to serve a total of 18 months in the Palm Beach detention facility, 12 for felony solicitation of prostitutes, and an additional six for procuring persons under 18 for prostitution. He was a registered sex offender. Why is this coming out now? It's coming out now because the Miami Herald newspaper,

which played a big role in kind of getting the Epstein case back on the national radar that led to his final prosecution and then to his death in the prison. The Miami Herald had reported on the victim's stories, and later on, they have been very active in the Florida courts to try to get these documents opened up, get these names that had been covered up, get them exposed. And they've been successful with the judge in getting some of these documents released. There are more documents to come in the next days or weeks, but there's as yet no reason

to believe that they will be any more, any closer to those bombshells that people were expecting than this one was. How many more documents and names are we expecting to be released? Do you have a sense of that? Not really. This was about 950 pages. From what I've heard, there's not nearly that many still to come. There's not nearly that many still to come, but most of these pages are just depositions that have been released previously. They're just being released this time with some of those blacked out names opened up.

We've been told that there may be further releases in the coming days. What's happened is that everyone who's mentioned whose name is going to be exposed was given an opportunity to object. Very few of them did. But in those cases where people objected, the judge is now working through that and will have to make individual decisions about each one of those. So we're told it could be a matter of just days. So you mentioned, you know, a lot of the folks who are named are not objecting. And a lot of that goes to the point that you made, that this is just a list of known associates, essentially. So, you know, appearing on the list isn't an accusation

of having done anything wrong, per se. You know, but the optics aren't great still, you know, to just be associated with this guy. So I guess I'm curious if you, you know, have any idea what kind of repercussions you might expect to see from these names being made public? You know, it's hard to imagine anything, any further repercussions given that these names have been out there before. Bill Clinton, people already made up their minds about him decades ago.

They either forgive and forget or they blame him forever. That's not going to change. And people similarly have very strong, solid views about Donald Trump. You know, could this become a political issue? Well, it might have had only Clinton or only Trump been named, but in fact, both were. So as they say in football, these may be offsetting penalties. You know, the question that you've posed, you know, two or three times in the course of our conversation has been, you know, that perhaps unanswerable question, which is, you know, why were people hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein? Was it for the money? Was it the influence? Was it for sex? That's something we clearly don't know. I guess what I'm curious, are there other questions about Epstein and his network and his money that you're aching to know still? Well, it's still not entirely clear whether he had, as he claimed, other clients beyond Leslie Wexner, the owner of Victoria's Secret, who was clearly the primary source of Epstein's fortune. Epstein, by all accounts, did manage money for Wexner.

So it's hard to imagine that if they were prominent people that that could be kept secret this long, but who knows? People are very private about their money. So it's possible that he had other clients, and it's unclear whether we'll ever know that. All right, Mark. Thanks so much. It's been great talking to you. Anytime. Thanks very much. All right, that's it for today.

Front Burner was produced this week by Rafferty Baker, Joyta Shingupta, Matt Mews, Derek Vanderwyk, and Dennis Kalman. Sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Will Yar. Music is by Joseph Shabison. Our senior producer is Elaine Chao. Our executive producer is Nick McKay-Blocos. And I'm Damon Fairless. Thanks for listening.

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