Front Burner - The fatwa on Salman Rushdie, 3 decades later

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

The writer Salman Rushdie is still recovering in hospital from a brutal attack at a literary event last Friday. A young man rushed onstage and stabbed Rushdie nearly a dozen times, leaving him with in...juries so severe he may lose an eye. While Rushdie himself has never been attacked like this before, this isn't the first attempt on his life. He has been targeted by death threats ever since the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran issued a fatwa calling for Rushdie's death in 1989. The fatwa was over Rushdie's 1988 novel, The Satanic Verses, parts of which some Muslims consider blasphemous. The uproar over the book led to huge protests in many countries, pushed Rushdie into hiding for nearly a decade, and led to the deaths of several people around the world. In England, where Rushdie was based, many people believe it also transformed U.K. society — particularly relations between British Muslims and non-Muslims. Today, we're looking back at The Satanic Verses affair and its long-term impacts with Mobeen Azhar, a BBC journalist and filmmaker. He's made a documentary about it, The Satanic Verses: 30 Years On, and a podcast, Fatwa. We'll also hear from celebrated British novelist and playwright Hanif Kureishi, who is a longtime friend of Rushdie's.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. How I've been feeling since the events on Friday, I think really sickened, really disgusting and really appalled. This is the celebrated British playwright and novelist Hanif Qureshi talking to me about the recent attack on his close friend Salman Rushdie. Apart from the political and literary dimensions of this, it's really disgusting to think that a young man would attack an unarmed 75-year-old author who's speaking about...
Starting point is 00:01:11 Last Friday, Rushdie was speaking at a literary event in New York when someone rushed the stage and stabbed him multiple times in the neck, stomach, chest, thigh, and near his right eye. stomach, chest, thigh, and near his right eye. The suspect, 24-year-old Hadi Matar, is in custody, and Rushdie remains in hospital. He's now off a ventilator, and his agent said his condition is improving, but that he is likely to lose an eye. Matar is pleaded not guilty, and police haven't stated a motive for the attack. But according to news reports, his social media activities suggested sympathy for Shia extremism and for the government of Iran. The same government that in 1989 ordered a fatwa against Rushdie, a decree calling for his death.
Starting point is 00:02:00 Today, Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini opened a new front when he demanded the execution of British novelist Salman Rushdie. Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini issued that fatwa following the uproar over Rushdie's 1988 novel, The Satanic Verses, parts of which some Muslims saw as blasphemous to their religion and to the Prophet Muhammad. Rushdie went into hiding for nearly a decade, and at least three people who translated the book were attacked. One actually died. Rushdie's friend, Hanif Qureshi,
Starting point is 00:02:33 believes the Satanic Verses affair had a transformative impact on literature. Well, two things. One, it makes people afraid to speak and afraid to engage with these issues and also engage with issues to do with race, which is, you know, very sensitive at the moment. But also it makes us aware how important literature is. You know, the books matter so much that this book that was published, I don't know what, 30, 35 years ago, is still relevant that people are speaking about it,
Starting point is 00:03:13 that it matters. The literature really counts to us that the word matters, that as writers and artists, it's always dangerous. Many people also believe that the affair was transformative for UK society as a whole, particularly for relations between Muslims and non-Muslims, a transformation whose ripples are still being felt even now. So today, we're going to go back to that time, 1988 and 89, and look at the impacts of the Rushdie affair then and now. My guest is Moby Nazar, a BBC journalist and filmmaker.
Starting point is 00:03:49 He's made a documentary about this called The Satanic Verses 30 years on, as well as a really excellent BBC podcast, Fawa. Hey, Mobin, thank you so much for being here. Demi, it's lovely to be with you. So look, you were a child growing up in Northern England when the Satanic Verses was published and when the backlash happened in England and around the world, including, of course, the fatwa from Ayatollah Khomeini. What would you remember from that time? So, indeed, I grew up in a town called Huddersfield in Yorkshire.
Starting point is 00:04:34 And the area I grew up in specifically was quite heavily populated by the Pakistani community. quite heavily populated by the Pakistani community so it was fairly mixed but the school I went to in particular was mainly Pakistani and I myself am second generation Pakistani I'm of Muslim heritage and I remember distinctly being in the schoolyard and kids saying uh have you heard about that guy and they were referring to Salman Rushdie and I remember a game developing in the schoolyard which was a kind of extension of tag and the game was called um how would you kill Salman Rushdie and that sounds terrible and horrible and whilst I'm saying it now I'm kind of wincing because of course we we we had no plans to kill anyone or hurt anyone it was school children being very very silly but we would think of the most fantastical ways to one catch this what we thought was a mythical character called Salman Rushdie, and also to then end his life, none of which was
Starting point is 00:05:46 rooted in reality. But that's what was unfolding at the time. And I think that's because collectively as a nation, and certainly within the Muslim community, everyone was digesting this stuff, watching it on the news. It was huge and it dominated our lives. I know a few years ago, you read the Satanic Verses for the first time. And what did you think? I read the Satanic Verses for the first time whilst making a documentary and whilst making a podcast series. And I thought, you know, if I'm going to do this, then I need to be qualified. and what's making a podcast series. And I thought, you know, if I'm going to do this,
Starting point is 00:06:24 then I need to be qualified. I have to at least read the work. And I have to say that that parcel arriving and bringing it into my home, there was part of me that felt like it had some kind of mystical power because pretty much for 30 years, I've been told that this was a book that I as a Muslim shouldn't be entertaining.
Starting point is 00:06:45 I shouldn't have in my home. I shouldn't touch. I certainly shouldn't read. But of course, there's many Muslims, including myself, that did read the book. When I read the book, to be completely frank, I thought it was brilliant. I thought it was really, really entertaining and vivid and psychedelic and all the things that I like in really good fiction. Part of the book is set in kind of fictitious version of 80s Britain. So, of course, Margaret Thatcher was the PM at the time. In the book, there's someone called Lady Torture, who bears remarkable resemblance to the prime minister of the day.
Starting point is 00:07:26 And there were parts of it that I have to say that I thought, hold on a minute, this is really close to the bone. And, you know, being someone who I have a kind of academic background in Islamic theology, so I could draw out those bits instantly. It didn't take a lot of work to understand that there were references to the Prophet Muhammad's life. But ultimately, what is it? It's a work of satire. And so as a work of satire, if you're going to target Margaret Thatcher, I think there's an argument, a strong argument that you can also target other historic figures and some would say other theological figures as well. And so I have certainly never
Starting point is 00:08:12 been of the episode, but even before the fatwa was issued in 1989, protests against the book were erupting across the UK in 1988. Most controversially, the book was even burned. Two months ago, the first book burnings. In Bradford, a mill town in northern England. People were shouting, saying, kill the man. There were people actually going that far.
Starting point is 00:08:57 There were people on the street. Can you tell me a bit about those protests across the country? What was bringing people out? What were they doing? Those protests, which on the face of it, were about challenging Rushdie's book and effectively kind of appealing for a ban on the publication. Of course, that's what they were about at face value. But I think actually, they were about many things. They were about poverty. They were about a community feeling voiceless. They were about young people feeling angry and not really feeling like they fit in. And so Rushdie and those demonstrations became a
Starting point is 00:09:35 flashpoint for all of that. And, you know, of course, understanding that the protests over the book were about more than just the book. Just for our listeners, what specific elements in the book did some people find offensive? What were they protesting? The bits that were offensive, really, to the Muslim community was the fact that there was a character in there called Mahound. The most controversial character sounds like Muhammad, but he's called Mahound. The most controversial character sounds like Mohammed, but he's called Mahound, which means the devil.
Starting point is 00:10:09 And the religion in the novel is called submission. That's the English translation of Islam. To its critics, these examples are enough to condemn satanic verses. And the life of Mahound and the wives of Mahound were based broadly on the theological understanding of the Prophet Muhammad and the wives of the Prophet Muhammad. In a thinly veiled reference to Muhammad, a prophet named Mahound is portrayed as a wily businessman and a philanderer. You had these characters who had the same names as the Prophet Muhammad's wives,
Starting point is 00:10:50 and they were represented as working in a brothel. People say that I've called Muhammad's wives prostitutes. It's not true. I've done no such thing. What I did do was to counterpoint the haram of Muhammad, you know, of Mahund in the novel, in which it's clearly stated that the real haram was composed of wives living chastely with him, you know, and to counterpoint that with a profane world of this decrepit poet who hides out in this brothel where people take the names of the Prophet's wives, you know, and to say, here is a sacred world,
Starting point is 00:11:20 here is the profane world. And so there was this line where you could have one reading of it and say this is purely a work of fiction many people within the muslim community read it differently and that was the source of the controversy I'm going to go. part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo.
Starting point is 00:12:27 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You interviewed the man who led this infamous book burning protest, just to go back to the protest in Bradford for a minute. How did he seem to feel about it 30 years later? Did he stand by what he'd done? I imagine a lot of people listening to this would think of the men that organized this book burning as kind of evil puritanical ideologues.
Starting point is 00:13:20 And I remember going around to his house and he was so unassuming and kind of offered me tea and biscuits. And he was what we'd call in the community an uncle and reflecting on what happened 30 years ago I feel that I had to do quite a lot of work in order for him to understand the scale of impact he'd had and so what that really taught me is a lot of the architects of this movement including this man Muhammad Siddiqui who'd been the guy who'd actually organized the book burning, I don't think they realized what they were doing and they didn't realize the impact. Perhaps it inflamed the feeling of people in the community.
Starting point is 00:13:54 And if it did do that, we feel sorry for that. We didn't intend to cause that feeling, that hurt. Perhaps we did go a bit far. Perhaps not. I don't know. There's one anecdote, if I can share with you. From the day he told me that they had real trouble getting any kind of press coverage. And so eventually a mutual friend said,
Starting point is 00:14:23 look, if you want to get the local paper down in Bradford, then you need to do something which is going to grab some attention. So maybe you need to burn the book. And so sure enough, he called the local paper and said, if you come down this evening at seven o'clock, we're going to burn the book. And sure enough, the local paper sent over a photographer. I mean, I couldn't believe this when he told me. He said, the photographer got there and said to him, I've been told you're setting fire to the book at seven o'clock and it's quarter past seven and I need to get home for dinner. So can you hurry up? And Muhammad Siddiqui said at the time, you know, he was looking for a lighter and no one had a lighter.
Starting point is 00:15:03 And so they said to the photographer, do you smoke? And he said, yeah, sure. I'll give you my lighter. And the photographer handed over his lighter. And that's how that book burning happened. So my point is that a lot of these guys, I think, didn't understand the impact that their protest was having you know I am old enough and my skin is brown enough to know what it has been like growing up in the UK post-Rushdie into 9-11 and the fallout from that the 7-7 bombings all of those things and I know along the way, there's always been kind of zealous individuals who claim to speak on our behalf. And I do think that there is some responsibility there. You know, you can't set fire to a book in the streets and then say that you're the victim when someone asks questions.
Starting point is 00:16:19 You talked before about this period in the 80s in England, how it was also a time when South Asian communities were facing a ton of racism, were othered. Part of that was serious physical violence, right, from the racist far right, including from members of the fascist National Front Party. How much of a motivating factor do you think that was in bringing some people out to these protests? people out to these protests? It's really, it's fascinating, because I think it's a kind of cyclical issue in the sense that at the time, there was most definitely racism. I've had conversations with my father who arrived in the UK in the early 70s, and has told me explicitly about being attacked with a glass bottle by a member of the National Front when he was working in London. And so that was happening in the 70s. So of course that fed these protests. But conversely, what happened is the protests then fed the notion of Muslims being the other, of being fanatical.
Starting point is 00:17:16 And so I remember meeting a man whilst I was making the documentary called Matthew Collins. Matthew Collins at the time was a member of the National Front. There was a massive demonstration called for London against the Satanic Verses. And about 20 of us came here to demonstrate against their demonstration. We were standing here with these banners saying no Muslim wars on British shores. And there were thousands of Muslims running onto Parliament Square in front of Big Ben in the House of the Parliament. And we're like, shit, war's really, really here. He described Rushdie's book, he described the Satanic Verses as the greatest gift possible for the National Front.
Starting point is 00:17:56 We did pick up quite a few members. People watching these anti-Rushdie protests thinking, ah, well, this is very, very, very, very intolerant. We don't want them here. It was the best gift ever for the National Front. The best gift ever. He told me the number of people getting in touch to join the National Front in the weeks and months following the protests against the book went through the roof. Satanic Verses wasn't going to put us into Parliament, but we could feel that it was going to swell our numbers.
Starting point is 00:18:27 Probably about 40% increase. We knew once this went around that more people would join up with us. You know, more and more people would say, yes, we need to fight these Muslims. So all of a sudden they shifted from saying, we don't want immigrants. We don't like anyone that isn't white and we are white supremacists. In 1988 and 89 that shifted suddenly the national front was saying no no we're not racist this is about an ideological problem that theme of no we're not racist but we don't like the idea or the ideology of muslims has lingered and continued and i believe thatRashti and around the time of
Starting point is 00:19:06 these demonstrations. The fatwa itself, the issuing of the fatwa itself, I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about how that came to be. Like when it was issued on February 14th, 1989, was this a typical thing for the Supreme Leader of Iran to be doing? What would the motivation be for him putting out a hit on an author in England over a novel? I mean, absolutely not. This wasn't in the jurisdiction of the Ayatollah Khomeini, who of course had come to power via the Islamic revolution in Iran. So the Ayatollah Khomeini effectively wanted global influence, and he wanted to present himself as the leader of the Muslim world, quote unquote. I think what many people will be really surprised about, and I was certainly surprised about this when I was making the documentary, is yes, the fatwa was issued, this religious edict was issued in Iran, but its origins in many ways are British.
Starting point is 00:20:27 And they're British because there was a man called Kaleem Siddiqui. Kaleem Siddiqui was again a kind of community activist, community leader, a British Muslim guy. And it's fairly well documented, actually, that when the controversy broke and the book was originally published, he went back and forth and had meetings with some of the Ayatollah's advisors and suggested that this was an opportunity and that a fatwa, a religious edict, effectively calling for Rushdie's head should be issued. And as we know, Valentine's Day 1989, that fatwa is issued and the rest is history. How did Salman Rushdie respond to the fatwa at the time? He went into hiding for nearly a decade, but how did he respond to this threat on his life?
Starting point is 00:21:19 If you kind of speak to people who were there at the time, there were phases to the way he responded. kind of speak to people who were there at the time, there were phases to the way he responded. So initially, he went into hiding, was unrepentant, was a kind of very vocal champion of freedom of speech, and spoke about the fact that this was plain satire. The question is not whether my book is a good book or a bad book. The question is much bigger than that. Because if it's me today, it'll be somebody else tomorrow. If we get into the position where any zealot group can go along, and as long as they're sufficiently violent, they can silence any dissent, any opinion which dissents from their own, well then, you know, in what is still supposed to be a liberal and free society, that's a terrifying precedent. We end up in a phase where at one point he professed to have kind of re-embraced Islam and he did this
Starting point is 00:22:06 publicly which is kind of astounding. I have no quarrel with the central tenets of Islam which is the oneness of God and the validity of the prophecy of the Prophet Muhammad. So you're a believer? I am able to accept the central principle of Islam. So that effectively you are a Muslim? So that effectively yes I would not? So that effectively, yes, I would not be prepared to say that. You know, of course, Rushdie was born a Muslim. So at one point he claims to have had this epiphany and kind of seen the error of his ways.
Starting point is 00:22:37 Retrospectively, you know, everyone that I interviewed who was around him at the time said that that was entirely tactical. And, you know, it wasn't wasn't cynical you know I think you've got to understand that this was a man who was fighting for his life so I understand entirely why he did it and then we enter this third phase which is the kind of the longer game which is you know Rushdie goes on to publish lots of brilliant work and continues then to be held up as a literary giant, which is well established, but also then as a freedom fighter. So someone who is not afraid to satirize and someone who's
Starting point is 00:23:17 not afraid to comment on the state of the world we live in. And that's the space he continues to occupy. I believe in free speech, but people should behave themselves. I believe in free speech, but we shouldn't upset anybody. I believe in free speech, but let's not go too far. The point about it is the moment you limit free speech, it's not free speech. The point about it is that it's free.
Starting point is 00:23:46 I want to talk a bit about the actual, of the actual impacts of of the fatwa here like people were killed apparently in association with the book and can you tell me a little bit about that there are actually dozens of people and it pains me to say this there are dozens of people who lost their lives in in a couple of contexts so you know for example we have uh the the japanese translator of the satanic verses was murdered in cold blood you had offices of the publishers being firebombed you know anyone associated with the book at one point in terms of publishing or translation was was being threatened so there was this kind of campaign to silence. Then what you also had is in countries around the world, including Pakistan, you had people at demonstrations
Starting point is 00:24:33 that became so violent, so animated, that people were killed at the demonstrations. I mean, to kind of just let that soak in for a second, you know, it's a book, it's a work of fiction, and people end up losing their lives because of it. It's astounding. And I need to be really clear there as well. When I say they end up losing their lives because of it, I'm not for a second suggesting that it's Salman Rushdie's fault, or that it's the book's fault. and suggesting that it's Salman Rushdie's fault or that it's the book's fault. Of course it isn't. It's no one's fault apart from the people
Starting point is 00:25:07 who organized these attacks and responded in the way that they did. But people did lose their lives. And I think we often forget that. One thing I did want to ask you before we end this conversation today is you talked before about how Rushdie of British Muslims describe feeling caught in the middle of this culture war, essentially, right? Like asked to pick a side, both by their like white liberal friends and then by people they saw as religious extremists. And can you talk a bit about that and what impact that has had? And can you talk a bit about that and what impact that that has had? society, creating cultures, creating club nights, creating publications, magazines, going to university, doing all those things, creating scenes, all of a sudden their friends were saying to them, and I'm talking about their white liberal friends, were saying to them,
Starting point is 00:26:34 hey, so where do you stand on this whole issue then? You know, you're not one of those people, are you? And so they were pondering questions and being asked to pick a side through the kind of pushback against Rushdie's book. And I don't think ultimately, I don't think that helped anyone. I really don't think it did. You've had so many fascinating insights during this conversation, Mopeen. insights during this conversation with you um and i know you've been doing this throughout but i wonder uh in in light of of the attack against rushd on saturday if there's anything else that you've been reflecting on these past few days that you might like to share with us yeah of course i mean i think my first thoughts when I heard the news were, of course, about Salman Rushdie himself and his family.
Starting point is 00:27:28 And of course, I think that needs to be everyone's focus. And, you know, we are hearing, of course, that he is now speaking and off a ventilator. But his injuries were life threatening and are life threatening. but his injuries were life-threatening and are life-threatening and there is no universe in which any of that approach is being acceptable I think after the attack I've been contacted by so many of the people I spoke to when I was making the documentary so many people who watched the documentary or heard the podcast and I think what everyone is really struck by is that how are we in a place in 2022 where someone who wasn't even born when this book came out, wasn't even born when this fatwa was issued,
Starting point is 00:28:15 how can we be in a situation where they feel motivated to attack someone in public? And I think that is tragic and i think what we have to be able to do is take stock of how we got here because these issues of freedom of speech of book burning of literature of the ability to be able to satirize and all the issues of how communities responded and continue to respond we can be uh kind of very surface level about it and that's about good and bad people and it's about the quote-unquote backward people and the progressives or we can we can be a bit more thoughtful and actually if we're a bit more thoughtful then these issues are actually multifaceted what are they about they're about people feeling like the outliers
Starting point is 00:29:10 they're about economics they're about individuals feeling like they're not being heard none of that i have to make clear is a reason or justification for attacking someone or issuing threats. None of it is. But we need to be able to understand each other. And so class, economics, race, racism, people's personal experiences, all of those things have a part to play. And we need to understand that or we're never going to move forward. Obin, thank you so much for this. I've so, so enjoyed listening to you today.
Starting point is 00:29:44 Thank you. Thank you. It's enjoyed listening to you today. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Jamie. Take care. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. Thank you.

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