Front Burner - The fight for better sunscreen, from AOC to skincare influencers

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

Sharing your skincare routine, whether it’s on DermTok or Instagram, is a hugely popular trend on social media. These days, there is one product that you’ll hear talked about religiously: sunscree...n. You’ll find dermatologists and skincare influencers alike evangelizing about the importance of cancer- and wrinkle-preventing SPF. But there’s another reason why sunscreen is top of mind this summer — it’s become a political issue in the United States, thanks to Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She recently took to TikTok to talk about how few quality sunscreens are available in America, compared to Asia and Europe. And it’s not just the U.S. — it’s a problem that’s also playing out here in Canada. Today we’ll be talking about the rise of sunscreen as a skincare must-have and the fight for better SPF options with Julian Sass. He is a cosmetic research and development professional and a content creator focused on sunscreen in Montreal. Looking for a transcript of the show? They’re available here daily: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

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Starting point is 00:00:00 In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Ladies and gentlemen of the class of 99, wear sunscreen. If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it. So if you grew up in the 90s, you might remember the spoken word song.
Starting point is 00:00:43 It was everywhere at a time when you didn't really hear much about sunscreen. Very different from today. These days, it seems like everyone is wearing sunscreen and talking about it a lot. This sunscreen is what Koreans are obsessed with, and let me show you why. Looks like a toothpaste, comes out just like this. Doesn't really have like a weird sunscreen smell. It's SPF 50 plus plus plus plus. It's super lightweight. It leaves no white cast. Firstly, I have always been a huge advocate for using SPF every single day, even when you're inside, even when you're in the UK, even when it's cloudy. I tried over 50 sunscreens so you don't have to. And that is just a small sample of the dermatologists and skincare influencers evangelizing about the importance of SPF on social
Starting point is 00:01:33 media right now. But there is another reason why sunscreen is top of mind this summer. It's become a political issue in the United States. I was in South Korea earlier this year and it is so clear how far advanced the rest of the world is on sunscreen and we deserve better. That's Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on TikTok talking about how few quality sunscreens are available in America compared to Asia and Europe. And it's not just the U.S., it's a problem that's also playing out here in Canada. I'm Tamara Kandaker, and today we're going to be talking about the rise of sunscreen as a skincare must-have and the fight for better SPF options in North America. Julian Sass is a cosmetic research and development professional and a content creator focused on sunscreen. He joins me now from Montreal.
Starting point is 00:02:40 Hi, Julian. Hello, how are you? I'm good. Thanks so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. This is fantastic. Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you about something that I feel like I know a little bit about and has become a big part of my life, but I have a lot of questions about still. So let's start with kind of the ubiquity of sunscreen. So I'm sitting in a dark room right now and I'm covered in a coat of SPF still. And I put it on this morning after I moisturized. It's something that I do every day. And I feel like a lot of people in the last little while have become religious about wearing sunscreen. It's something that you hear being preached online all the time. And that wasn't the case so long ago. And I'm wondering if we could start with
Starting point is 00:03:26 why that is. Why is sunscreen so ubiquitous right now? I think that it's a couple of things. So one of the big things is social media now. So you have influencers and you also have skin professionals, like dermatologists and estheticians who've been saying these kinds of things forever. But if you weren't going into their offices, then you weren't hearing this kind of stuff, like wearing sunscreen every day and moisturizing all of these things that just weren't accessible to people now. But now people have so much more access to all of this information. That's been one of the things driving it. And also, I think it's just the products themselves have gotten so much better. I I mean if we're
Starting point is 00:04:05 thinking about you know some things that are out now like there are these brands that have come out that have made sunscreen this like more fun kind of thing to wear and not something that's just for the beach and the products have gotten so much better and so much more cosmetically elegant work well under makeup and there's really something for everybody now. If you're still on the hunt for that perfect sunscreen that doesn't feel heavy and greasy and leave white cast on the skin, this is the new series for you because I've tested out over 50 sunscreens and I'm going to share the absolute best ones. So it's a combination of kind of people knowing more about it and the formulas just being more tolerable to use as like an everyday thing. the formula is just being more tolerable to use as like an everyday thing.
Starting point is 00:04:50 Is this also the result of like this obsession that people had 20 years ago with tanning? Yes. Yeah, it was like there was the big tanning boom. So we definitely, you know, saw decades ago people would, you know, go out, go tanning, get on tanning beds, all of those things. And now as that time has has gone on and they're now seeing how much damage that the tanning has done to their skin now trying to reverse and so now there's so much that being preached from these professionals saying no you don't need to go tanning like you need to be wearing sunscreen protecting your skin from the sun and now you're just being able to see all the damage that all of that has done. So it's like we had this trend, we're now seeing the repercussions of it now trying to backtrack and make sure that that doesn't happen again.
Starting point is 00:05:32 Right. Okay, so so this wider embrace of sunscreen is relatively new, thanks to all of these things that you mentioned, and the industry seizing the opportunity, but protecting your skin from the sun isn't a new idea, right? Like people have been finding ways to do that since ancient Egypt. Yeah, 100%. Like when you look back into history, we're looking at places in Africa, as of Saharan Africa, we're looking at Egypt, indigenous cultures in North America, Greece, Rome, India, Southeast Asia, they all had these components that were like, okay, we're going to use like olive oil for sunburn treatment or using like a wound healing salve with herbs or all these different things that were designed to either protect from the sun
Starting point is 00:06:17 or to help heal from sunburn. And so that part of human nature is not anything new. But as you know, time has gone by, and even in Europe, you know, we they had like face and head coverings to protect from the sun. And, you know, coming up to maybe the early 1930s, when the first actual sunscreen was developed, and then SPF came around in the 60s. And now we're where we are now. We have these incredible, elegant formulas. But yeah, trying to protect your skin from the sun is nothing new at all. But it was definitely more of a focus on sunburn for sure than all the information that we know now that the sun can do for your skin. What I've read historically, it hasn't always been about health reasons either, right? Like, it was for cosmetic reasons, because lighter skin has been culturally seen as more desirable. Exactly, exactly. So when you're doing that, putting your skin in the sun, it's like, oh, I know that the sun's gonna make me darker, but I want to be lighter. Because when you think about how it was in Europe all those years ago, the people who were darker were the people who were outside in the fields and working, when the people who were darker were the people who were outside in the fields and working. The people who were inside had the lighter skin tones. They weren't as
Starting point is 00:07:29 exposed to the sun. And so those fairer skin tones were more desirable. Obviously, the tide has shifted since then, but it was definitely seen as a sign of wealth and high standing to have that lighter skin tone. And so a part of that was also religiously protecting their skin from the sun. Okay, so that's the past. But based on what we know now, why is sunscreen so important? Like, give me the big sell for wearing SPF every day. Big sell for me is in two main things.
Starting point is 00:08:14 There's the health reasons and there's the vanity reasons. So for health, you obviously do not want to get sunburned if you're going to be out at the beach. And also, if you have a lighter skin tone, you have a much higher disposition to get skin cancer from like UV exposure. So that's a big part of it. But then in the vanity piece, there are so many different skin concerns that people try and treat that can be improved drastically by sun protection. So you're thinking about like photo age and like get, you know, these fine lines and wrinkles
Starting point is 00:08:44 that you get from being exposed to the sun, thinking about uneven photo age and like get, you know, these fine-linted wrinkles that you get from being exposed to the sun. Thinking about uneven skin tone, pigmentation, even acne can be improved by protecting your skin from the sun because the UV rays in the sun make all of those skin conditions worse. So those are the kind of like top sells for me. It's like there is no downside to wearing sunscreen every day. And it's going to be a great investment in your skin for the long run for both the health and the vanity reasons. And so while we're here, what is the right way to wear sunscreen? Because I've heard a lot of different advice.
Starting point is 00:09:16 I've heard the shot glass for your whole body guideline a lot. Is that right? Or is that like a TikTok thing? No, the shot glass thing for your body is great when you're like at the beach and you have so much of your skin exposed but i think like for like per region of the body um it's really hard to kind of give a general thing because the way sunscreen is tested it's like by weight per the amount of skin that you have so it's hard to do like a general thing but a good kind of broad spectrum sort of thing that you can use is a half a teaspoon for your face, ears and neck, and then a teaspoon for
Starting point is 00:09:49 each arm, two teaspoons for each leg, and then 14 teaspoons for your torso. So two for the front and two for the back, if like your entire body is exposed. But if you're just going out every day, you don't have a ton of skin exposed, half teaspoon face, ears, neck, that's going to be great. every day and you don't have a ton of skin exposed, half teaspoon face, ears, neck, that's going to be great. Yeah. And then in terms of reapplication, is it true that every 90 minutes you're supposed to reapply? Yeah, that is the recommendation if you are being continually exposed to UV. But if you're not being exposed to UV or if you're inside and like not going out, it's not as important to be reapplying that religiously, but definitely if you're going to be out, reapplying that every two hours is essential to make sure that the sunscreen is still setting up and working well on your skin. So I know there are two main types of sunscreen, chemical and mineral. Chemical sunscreen, correct me if I'm wrong, but it absorbs UV rays, it converts them to heat, all over your body, which is bad for you. And I wonder if you can set the record straight on that.
Starting point is 00:11:10 Are chemical sunscreens bad for you? No. And I think that even calling it chemical just makes it seem scary because there's so much like, for want of a better word, chemophobia right now. Because when you look at those mineral sunscreens, zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, those are also chemicals. And I think that the idea is that, oh, these are like natural minerals, but the mineral sunscreens are still chemically processed and coated and all of these things happen to them. So it's not like you're getting this like straight from a mine, for example. But even when you're looking at how the sunscreens work, it's fairly similar as to how they work. You're getting the chemical sunscreens that absorb UV, but the mineral sunscreens also mostly absorb UV and convert it into heat. So the way that they
Starting point is 00:11:57 work is fairly similar. We've known this since about the 80s. But even with those chemical sunscreens, there is a lot of fear mongering that happens for a number of reasons. And it mostly comes from a misunderstanding of the data that we have about sunscreens, because it did get to a point where we found these sunscreens when used as directed are harmful to human health, they'd be pulled from the market. So no, there is no harm from using any kind of sunscreen, mineral or chemical. And the best kind of sunscreen that you can use is the one that you like to use and will wear every single day. Okay, right. So just to be absolutely clear, according to Health Canada and the FDA, there is nothing right now that says any of these ingredients are unsafe for people to use and that people should not stop using sunscreens. Exactly.
Starting point is 00:12:58 So this feels like a good time to point out that sunscreen in Canada is heavily regulated, same as the U.S., which brings me nicely to the next part of our conversation, which is about this fight for better sunscreen in North America. And we heard Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez at the top of this episode, and you just moved to Canada. You're from the US. How do our sunscreen options in North America compare to other parts of the world? America compared to other parts of the world? It is a shocking downgrade. It really is. And it is, you know, a lot because of the way that sunscreen is regulated in the US and Canada, because here, they're non-prescription drugs, but around the world, except for maybe Australia, they are cosmetic products. And so it's still heavily regulated, but the process to get a new sunscreen filter approved isn't nearly as
Starting point is 00:13:52 stringent and doesn't take nearly as long. And the safety data is still extensive, but there are alternatives that are approved in Europe, in East Asia that we don't have access to here because of those regulations around how drugs have to be tested. Tell me a bit more about that. How is the regulation process different here than it is in other parts of the world? So because sunscreens are non-prescription drugs, anytime that you want to have a new drug on the market, it has to go through what's called a new drug approval, which takes 15 years at best and costs thousands and thousands of dollars. And you have to have a lot of safety data that goes into how drugs are approved. It's the same thing that you would do for any kind of over-the-counter medication. And it also involves animal testing for safety reasons. And the difference between here and
Starting point is 00:14:52 Europe, for example, is that Europe has completely banned animal testing and they have these alternatives that they have access to for these animal testing processes. And so when you're looking at trying to get one of those new filters approved in the US or in Canada, there is that animal testing process that has to happen, but it's banned in the country where it's coming from. And companies don't want to pay all of that money to do the animal testing when they've already in their own region done that safety testing, and they know that it's safe on the skin. and especially when it's been used for 15, 20 years over there. So it's like, well, what's the point of doing all that testing just to have
Starting point is 00:15:29 one more country that we can sell in? So it's a really complicated bureaucratic issue because of the way that the different sunscreens are regulated in these different regions. Okay. And so why are so many people obsessed with sunscreen that's made elsewhere? What's so good about it? And how is it different from what we have access to here? So around the world, looking at Europe, Australia, looking at East Asia, there are 27 to 29 sunscreen filters that are approved. And in the US, there's 16 to 17 with a couple more in Canada. But in the US, there's been nothing new since the 90s, really. And in addition to that, they also feel a lot more elegant on the skin.
Starting point is 00:16:14 And so you're able to have formulas that feel nicer. And additionally, in these other regions, they have more strict regulations around UVA protection. So UVA rays are the ones that cause the premature aging. So it's like UVA for aging, UVB for burning. Additionally, in these regions, you have sunscreens that not only have more advanced filters, but are also more protective against the entire range of UV rays that are coming from the sun. So they feel better on the skin and they're more protective.
Starting point is 00:16:45 And also a lot of the times they're more affordable. So it's just a win in every single category. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.
Starting point is 00:17:23 I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So it sounds like a lot of the options that are available in other parts of the world are kind of the opposite to the sunscreens that we have here, which are like sticky and greasy. They take forever to blend in. Sunscreens that we have here, which are like sticky and greasy, they take forever to blend in. They have that horrible white cast and they're super expensive, which all seem like barriers to something that's pretty crucial for people to have access to, right? I wonder if you can talk about what you've learned are the biggest barriers that prevent people from wearing sunscreen on a daily basis.
Starting point is 00:18:23 barriers that prevent people from wearing sunscreen on a daily basis? Yeah, a big part of that is that the cultures that we're living in actually drive the way that products are formulated. So when you think about, you know, US culture, Canadian culture, the sunscreens that we're used to are just for the beach, for example. And so when you're thinking about the kind of beach mentality, that like people want something that feels kind of thick and heavy because you feel more protected. And so when you look at a place like South Korea or in Japan, where wearing sunscreen is like a very normal thing, these lighter and more elegant textures are a lot more common. You have these much more elegant formulas because that's what the majority of consumers want.
Starting point is 00:19:09 So things are changing for sure, but it will definitely take some time as this kind of concept takes hold of writing sunscreen every day to get to a point where, okay, most sunscreens feel nice on the skin, which sounds to me like a very given thing. It's like, of course, this should feel nice on the skin, but we're not quite there yet, but we're getting there.
Starting point is 00:19:29 Yeah. Can I just ask you, does that explain the price of sunscreens? I'm just thinking this is something that you have to use every day, quite a bit of it every day. And some of the sunscreens that are considered like good quality, they cost, you know, anywhere from 40 to like $60, which is pretty expensive, right? So why is it? Why is it that expensive? It is a combination of not being normal to have like these nice sunscreens that people are wearing every day. But it's also the companies who make these really nice formulas know that what they are creating is something that is unique to what people have seen on the market. And a part of
Starting point is 00:20:09 that does come with an upcharge. It's like, okay, we're making this really nice, elegant formula that not a lot of brands are doing. And we're going to charge for that, which is a shame really. And until we have brands at all different price points able to make really nice, elegant sunscreens, then you're going to see that price be for those more expensive products. Because yeah, I totally agree that when you have to wear, you know, 2.5 mil and wear that every single day, it's like, okay, I've got this, you know, 50 mil sunscreen from Sephora that I've gone through in a month and it becomes a cost barrier for people as well. It's like, okay, if I want to
Starting point is 00:20:50 wear this every single day, I'm either not going to wear enough of it or I'm going to go broke. Because if you think about it, so many other kinds of products have options at every single price for it. I mean, you can get, you know, a $3 cleanser from Shoppers, but you can also get a $60 cleanser from Sephora as well. So you have those things that will work similarly, but at lots of different price points. And so as this phenomenon becomes more ubiquitous, hoping that the ranges of prices that we have for nice formulas will happen at every single price point. single price point. So I appreciate that governments move slowly and arguably for good reason, but skincare advocates argue that we are decades behind here. And how do you think we should balance this need to regulate products for safety with this desire
Starting point is 00:21:46 for more access? What would you like to see happen? I think in a perfect world, I would love for the FDA to take the years of safety data that's coming from different regulatory agencies like the EU and Australia, which is something that Canada does very often. It's like, okay, we know that these other regions have done all the safety testing, have done all this, and we're going to adopt what their regulations are. And a part of that also is if we are going to still treat sunscreens as drugs to really put a lot of effort and money into expediting the approval of these non-animal alternatives to these animal safety tests so that it's easier for us to have these sunscreen options here and even for just drugs
Starting point is 00:22:33 in general. And also just more collaboration between different agencies because looking at just the regulatory sphere in general, there's so much science happening in all of these different regions, and when everyone is kind of in their own sphere, then it's so much harder to share information. So just wanting that collaboration between all of these different agencies that all, yes, have their own rules, but also have the same goal of ensuring that their consumers have safe and effective products for whatever concerns that they're trying to treat. But it sounds like we might be dealing with this issue for a while. So just one last question, what advice would you have for people who want to order sunscreen internationally?
Starting point is 00:23:19 I do not recommend Amazon. Amazon, definitely, you can get some duds for sure. I've seen a lot of fake products on Amazon that have the same packaging. But when you look at the formula, it's like, this is not what this is advertised to be at all. But there are lots of different reputable retailers in Europe, in Southeast Asia, in Australia that are able to ship sunscreen to North America. So definitely want to start there before trying to get things that you see on Amazon, because you definitely have a much higher likelihood of getting something that might not be as advertised. Okay. I think that's a great, great place to end, Julian. Thank you so much. This was awesome. I
Starting point is 00:24:01 appreciate it. Thank you for having me. All right, that's all for now. This week, Front Burner was produced by Imogen Burchard, Joyta Sengupta, Shannon Higgins, Lauren Donnelly, Matt Mews, and Derek Vanderwyk. Our sound design was by Sam McNulty. Our music is by Joseph Chavison. Our executive producer this week is Elaine Chao. And I'm Tamara Kandaker. Thank you so much for listening. FrontBurner will be back on Monday.
Starting point is 00:24:42 For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.

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