Front Burner - The gloves stay on in Walz-Vance U.S. VP debate

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

In most American elections, the vice presidential debates are almost an afterthought — but this has not been a typical election. Republican J.D. Vance and Democrat Tim Walz are relative newcomers on the national stage, both making headlines since their selection, and this will likely be the only time they face off in a one-on-one debate.CBC Washington correspondent Alex Panetta breaks down the debate's biggest moments, and what it can tell us about the parties' strategies for the final month of the campaign.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcriptsTranscripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. All right. Hi, everybody. I'm Jamie Poisson. I'm here with my colleague in Washington, Alex Panetta. Hey, Alex. Hey, how we're going to really get into it in a second. But first, I actually just want to take a moment to reflect with you on the fact that this debate was pretty normal. Just two guys who were fairly polite to each other, a very policy-centric conversation,

not what we got with that disastrous debate with Biden and Trump, not what we got in the debate between Trump and Kamala Harris. Listen, after the car crashes we've witnessed this year, this was like an uneventful trip to the grocery store. You know, this was pretty simple. Dare I say boring? I like boring. I've covered three elections featuring Donald Trump. I'll take boring. But it really is also sort of a testament, I don't know if that's the right word to Trump, who has fundamentally made this like a reality TV show that when he is absent from the debate, it's now like watching

C-SPAN and not The Apprentice. Absolutely. I mean, you know, there are things that Donald Trump has introduced to American politics that are going to stick. There are other things that he has only accentuated that already existed. For example, lies, right? There were some nose stretchers in which we could talk about as well, but, you know, not on the scale or the scope or the frequency that you see with Trump. Right. And there are other things he just he just completely changed about American politics, the gratuitous insults. And I mean, this was the exact opposite opposite of that. As a matter of fact, the candidates who kind of greeted each other, you know, a little tentatively before the debate at the end were like they had a long chat on stage.

They introduced their spouses to each other. They were slapping each other's arms. They look like friends at the end. Yes. Yeah. Towards the end, Walt said. Well, I've enjoyed tonight's debate and I think there was a lot of commonality here and I'm sympathetic to misspeaking on things. And I think I might have with with the senator. Me too, man. Which, I don't know, just is really something to watch. But, you know, having said that, it wasn't all boring. There's still lots for us to talk about tonight. And I do want to talk about J.D. Vance first with you. diversion of J.D. Vance that we were going to get. The really fiery Fox News guy who in the past has talked about how the country is being run by childless cat ladies. We're effectively run in this country via the Democrats, via our corporate oligarchs, by a bunch of childless cat ladies. About people eating pets in Ohio. We've heard from a number of constituents on the ground, Caitlin, who both firsthand and

secondhand reports saying this stuff is happening. Or if we were going to get something different. And what did we get? Yeah, well, we got a much more cerebral version of the of the guy you see on Fox News. And frankly, you know, people who've talked to him and I personally have not people who have talked to him say that that's kind of the real guy. I mean, this is a person who's written like, I don't know, a 3,000-word essay on his conversion to Catholicism that quotes St. Augustine. He's a thoughtful person. And even where that stuff on the childless cat ladies comes from, he is of the belief that it should be the policy of the U.S. government to encourage the creation of families and, you know, through child tax credits and, you know,

supports for working parents. We're going to have to spend more money. We're going to have to induce more people to want to provide child care options for American families, because the reason it's so expensive right now is because you've got way too few people providing this very essential service. This is not the traditional position of the post-Reagan Republican Party or post-Goldwater Republican Party. It is a conservative party that believes the government is always the problem, always wrong, and not the solution to your problems, right? He's actually like, one of the reasons, you know, you heard Walt say there's some commonality here, because frankly, on economic issues, there is more commonality today than

the Democratic and Republican parties than there has been in some time. The Trump Republican party is actually closer in some ways to the Democratic party. In other ways, it's not. Absolutely not. And, you know, you see that around their positions on manufacturing. Just just elaborate on that for me a tiny bit more. Absolutely. I mean, the, the way economic debates tended to work in Washington in the last few years is Republicans were militantly pro-trade. Any attempt to interfere in the economy was called socialism. Government supports for people were, you know, derided. Of course, I mean, I'm caricaturizing it a bit because there are always exceptions. But, you know, the fact that you have a Republican vice presidential candidate talking about,

you know, child tax credits, the fact that, you know, they're talking about more tariffs on top of the tariffs they already placed because they see manufacturing as inherently good because it creates stable families and working class communities. I mean, this is not, you know, I don't want to be a dead horse here because it's been known for years that the party's changed a bit. But I think what was really striking is you had someone channeling Trumpism in a much more fluid and sophisticated vocabulary. It's the heart of the Donald Trump economic plan. Cut taxes for American workers and American families. Cut taxes for businesses that are hiring and building companies in the United States of America, but penalize companies and countries that are shipping jobs overseas. That's the heart of

the economic proposal. And this is not something that Mike Pence would have done, right? Mike Pence was not a Trump style Republican at all. So, you know, Vance appears to be very sympathetic to the philosophy of Donald Trump, but he speaks in the language of a former editor of the Yale Law Review, which is what he is. And do you think that that will resonate with people watching the debate tonight? I guess maybe put another way, what did he have to do tonight and did he do it? Yeah, I guess his objective tonight was, well, twofold. One is, you know, along the lines of what we're talking about to try to present a sympathetic face to sort of uh you know disabuse people of the impression they may have had of him elections are close here right so you want people to sort of think okay this could be a president

if anything happens to the you know um soon to be octogenarian donald trump um that's the first objective the second thing is to try to just continue to push the frame of this debate as being about Kamala Harris. And then that's almost the flip side of what Waltz was trying to achieve. You may have noticed how often Vance mentioned Kamala Harris. That's gotten more difficult thanks to Kamala Harris's energy policies. That's gotten harder because of Kamala Harris's policies. And that too has gotten harder because of Kamala Harris's policies. And that too has gotten harder with Kamala because of Kamala Harris's policies. And how often Waltz mentioned Donald Trump. Trump was in office. It was Donald Trump. Donald Trump pulled that program. Donald Trump's fickle leadership. Donald Trump tweeted because that's the. Because frankly, those are the big fish in this election. You know, no one's voting or very few people are going to be voting based on how they feel about J.D. Vance and Tim Walz.

What do you think Vance's best moment was? Well, I think there was this one moment where he really hid his pride, where he tied everything together. The more popular elements of his platform, we're not talking about abortion here, we're talking about some of the more economic, you know, beat up on foreign imports kind of stuff. Tied with his criticism of his principal target, which is Kamala Harris. And he tells Tim Walton. Honestly, Tim, I think you got a tough job here because you've got to play whack-a-mole. You've got to pretend that Donald Trump didn't deliver rising take-home pay, which of course he did. You've got to pretend that Donald Trump didn't deliver lower take-home pay, which of course he did. You've got to pretend that Donald Trump

didn't deliver lower inflation, which of course he did. And then you simultaneously got to defend Kamala Harris's atrocious economic record, which has made gas, groceries, and housing unaffordable for American citizens. I was raised by- That to me is like,

it's the entire argument in a nutshell. And it's frankly delivered way more eloquently than Donald Trump ever could for his own campaign. Worst moment? The January 6th of 2020. As much as this debate was a glimpse into American politics without Donald Trump, it was a reminder, like a record scratch, that Donald Trump is still a very important fixture in the American political firmament. And that this man tried to steal the last U.S. presidential election. And at one point, you know, Walton, look, this is something I can't get past here. When Mike Pence made that decision to certify that election, that's why Mike Pence isn't on

this stage. And'm concerned and and that was a reminder that the reason mike pence is not the vice presidential candidate is because he refused to allow trump to steal an election refusing pressure from trump uh ignoring the chance you know the kill mike pence chance on january 6th at the u.s capital you know in a normal world jd vance is not on that stage And when when Vance was pressed about what he would do or whether the election was stolen in 2020, he is still saying he didn't lose the election. I would just ask that. Did he lose the 2020 election? He couldn't answer or he avoided answering. Tim, I'm focused on the future. Did Kamala Harris censor Americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 COVID situation?

That is a damning non-answer. It's a damning non-answer for you to not talk about censorship. Obviously, Donald Trump and I- And that was not a glorious moment. Yeah, he just said he wanted to move forward and Waltz essentially came back to him and said that it was a damning non-answer, I think is what he said. said that it was a damning non-answer, I think is what he said, which, you know, I think it's fair to say that that was probably Waltz's best moment in the debate, right? I think so, too. And I think Tim Waltz, if he could do it all over again, he would have had that 2020 segment near

the beginning of the debate rather than at the end. Yes, 90 minutes in and everybody's stewed out. We're going to come back to Waltz in a minute. But just sticking with J.D. Vance for just a moment longer, something that I was thinking about and that came up in our group chat during the debate is that, you know, the Democrats have spent a lot of time trying to label Trump and Vance as weird, right? And I do wonder if tonight that strategy might have backfired to a certain extent because people might have been expecting something that they didn't get. That, you know, instead, he probably didn't seem weird and actually seemed quite persuasive and reasonable to many people. Yeah, I mean, it was very personable i at one point when tim waltz talks about his son here look i got a i got a 17 year old and uh and he witnessed a shooting at a community center playing volleyball those things don't leave you as a member tim first of

all i didn't know that your 17 year old witness is shooting i'm sorry about that and i appreciate christ have mercy uh it is i mean he seemed like a nice, normal person, right? And look, I'm sure all of the things, the criticisms that have been said about him, some of them carry a truth. But they are caricatures. There is an incomplete portrait there. And, you know, it would be like watching Kamala Harris laughing clips, which, you know, are selectively edited clips by the Republican Party and concluding that that's Kamala Harris. It's not. You know, people are more complicated and complete. And tonight you saw, like I said, the former editor of the Yale Law Review was able to quote St. Augustine and who's, by all accounts, a pretty friendly, amiable person, also very conservative, but also espousing a kind of different brand of conservatism, you know,

pro-family, pro-manufacturing, pro, you know, let's rebuild our communities type of conservative that was not really the focus of, you know, the George W. Bushes and Ronald Reagans of the world. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling

numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, one thing that was interesting is that one of the criticisms of Waltz that people made kind of immediately after the debate was that he didn't do enough to push back on Vance, right? To kind of surface this long history Vance has of doing and saying all sorts of stuff. And that, you know, that was a real failing. And I wonder if you would agree with that. And if so, you know, where that happened. I think you're right. J.D. Vance has endorsed a national abortion ban in the past.

Doesn't talk about it anymore. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. It's not whether women should be forced to bring a child to term. It's whether a child should be allowed to live, even though the circumstances of that child's birth are somehow inconvenient or a problem to the society. Now, it's basically, you know, he's taking Trump's approach, which is leave it to the states. And, you know, and let's include some exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother. We have to accept that people do not want blanket abortion bans. They just don't. We have to provide exceptions for the life of the mother, for rape and so forth.

But, you know, really, it's not our issue at the federal level anymore. Right. That's so. But that's not what he used to say. And and, you know, if he became president one day, either, you know, by replacing Trump, you know, throw an act of God or, you know, went on to the presidency at some later point in his life, you know, would he sign a bill that Congress sent him? That's you know, that didn't come up. And I don't think Walt's pushed very hard. You know, I don't think, I mean, he could have mentioned January 6th a little earlier. He could have said, look, the only reason you're here tonight is because Trump's CZ was likelier to help him steal an election than his previous vice president. I mean, that didn't come up until the end. You know, Walt's could have maybe pushed it a little harder earlier on.

Frankly, I thought he looked a little nervous at the beginning um he he you know he waltz was i mean let's be honest here i think he was less um less polished than vance for most of the debate you know he recovered somewhat but you know he still suffered more hiccups than his rival uh you know including one wince inducing quote where he you know waltz says i've become friends with school shooters i've seen it look i think he meant to say he's friends with school shooters. I think he misspoke, but there was quite a few of those in his first answer about the Middle East. I mean, both candidates refused to give a straight answer on whether they would allow Israel to launch a preemptive strike. But he mixed up around in Israel a few times.

The expansion of Israel and its proxies is an absolute fundamental necessity for the United States to have the steady leadership there. You saw it. He seemed very nervous. He had another really rough moment when he was asked about whether he was in China during Tiananmen Square, right? And just tell me more about what happened there. Yeah. So I don't blame Waltz for being nervous on the Israel answer because politically, I mean, that's just going to cause you heartache no matter what you say on that issue. I was actually kind of surprised Vance didn't didn't bite harder on the Israel question. No, the one, I mean, probably the worst moment of the debate for Waltz was when he was called out for having claimed on different occasions in the past that he was in China during the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989. He said that a couple of times, and it's not true.

He went to China a couple months later, and he's been to China many times because he led a student exchange program. But it was such a fumbling answer. Being there, the impact it made, the difference it made in my life. I learned a lot about China. I hear the critiques of this. I would make the case that Donald Trump should have come on one of those trips with us. I guarantee you. He tried to avoid admitting that he lied or made it up and sort of talked about the value of cultural exchanges. And he was pushed. The moderators pushed me. He kind of admitted to misspeaking governor just to follow up on that the question was can you explain the discrepancy all i said on this was as i got there that summer and misspoke on this so i i will just that's what i've said but this is kind of part of a pattern with waltz he has embellished uh his his cv a few times he sort of exaggerated his

military rank a little bit it was and i'd call that a small white lie he kind of like earned a rank that was it was downgraded upon retirement and he claimed one he didn't have uh he claimed to have used ivf uh when ivf was in the news he you know he and his wife had not used ivf they used a other uh type of fertility uh treatment you know and this is you know i guess the third the trifecta of you know, and this is, you know, I guess the third, the trifecta of, you know, CV embellishing statements he's been called out on. And so, you know, in a normal time, this would have possibly been, you know, the political story of the year, like a candidate who kind of makes up parts of his CV. But, you know, we are not in normal times. Like I said, we've got two assassination attempts.

Exactly. Yeah. There's just a lot going on in this. We were talking before about how the narrative around J.D. Vance is not the whole portrait. Right. The narrative around J.D. Vance is not the whole portrait, right? And, you know, Walt rode into this campaign on vibes, really. These, like, social media vibes. He wasn't on anybody's short list to be running mate, right? And people loved that he was this folksy dad, coach, teacher, just speaking real truth.

Well, it's true. These guys are just weird. We don't have the Ten Commandments post in our classrooms, but we have free breakfast and lunch. And do you think that that translated on the vice presidential debate stage tonight? You know, I'll say it was funny. It was almost like a Bizarro World version of Kamala Harris. OK, so Tim Walz, one of the reasons i think he was picked as her running mate was he he was great in interviews you know he's good at media interviews at least from the ones i've seen very thoughtful folksy you know but you know a replacement level player at best as a debater all right and when i say replacement level i'm comparing them to other you know people in the upper echelons of U.S. politics.

Whereas Kamala Harris is the opposite. Kamala Harris in media interviews doesn't usually shine. But she was just a wizard on that debate stage a few weeks ago. That was one of the best debate performances I've ever seen, if not the best. And so it's funny. Waltz is kind of the opposite. Great at one, not the other. funny, like, Waltz is kind of the opposite. Great at one, not the other. So look, I know this is something that you have said to me before, that generally vice presidential debates don't really

move the needle in presidential elections. Actually, it doesn't even seem like the last presidential debate moved the needle in this election. But do you think that anything that we saw here tonight might have the potential to tip the scales one way or another in this insanely close race that is really going to just come down to a handful of swing states. I'm happy you added that caveat at the end, the closeness of this race. Because in a race like 2020, for example, uh like you know 2020 for example uh where i think it was like 42 000 votes or something like that uh decided you know a trio uh of swing states uh and frankly the election pretty much anything can swing 42 000 votes the weather in detroit on election day can swing 42 000 votes right so so yeah i mean this could have swung the election. But, you know, my prior bias entering this conversation is that, no, on the long list of things that affect the presidential election, the vice presidential debate, certainly one that's, you know, not so lopsided would not be on the list of top 10 things that affect the election.

But again, you know, in a paper thin race, you never know. Okay. Well, that sounds like a great place to end this conversation. Alex, thank you so much for this. It was great chatting with you. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you, Jamie. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.