Front Burner - The long fight for women’s rights in Iran

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Since the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini in the custody of Iran’s morality police on September 16th, protests have erupted throughout Iran and in some 160 cities around the globe — with some of the biggest protests happening here in Canada. Despite violent crackdowns on the demonstrations in Iran, protesters are still coming out to the streets. And women have remained at the forefront, at times burning their headscarves, or chopping off their hair. But this is far from the first time that women have led protest movements in the country. So today we’re taking a look at how the Mahsa Amini demonstrations fit into a long history of women’s activism in Iran — and whether or not this time feels different. Our guest is Mona Tajali, an associate professor of International Relations, and Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality Studies at Agnes Scott College. She’s also the author of the recent book Women’s Political Representation in Iran and Turkey: Demanding a Seat at the Table.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Of all the powerful footage emerging from protests in Iran, some of the most striking is probably of schoolgirls. Like these ones, removing their compulsory head coverings in the hallways and shouting, death to the dictator.

their compulsory head coverings in the hallways and shouting, death to the dictator. Or these ones in the city of Karaj, chasing a government official out of their school and throwing what appear to be empty water bottles at him. The protest began nearly three weeks ago, after a 22-year-old Kurdish woman named Masa Amini died in the custody of Iran's Morality Police. After they arrested her for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. Witnesses say Amini was beaten inside a police van and her family believes she was tortured. Allegations the police denied. Allegations the police denied. The demonstrations have spread to some 160 cities around the world,

from Paris to Beirut to Kabul to Seoul. Some of the biggest have been here in Canada. This past Sunday, around 50,000 people gathered in Richmond Hill, just north of Toronto, calling for change. Justice! What do we want? Justice! When do we want it? Now! In Iran, police are responding violently, sometimes using live ammunition against the crowds.

According to one human rights group, more than 130 people have been killed. But the demonstrations have continued and women have remained at the forefront, some burning their headscarves in bonfires, others chopping off their hair in front of massive crowds. This is, of course, far from the first time that Iranians have staged huge protests against their government. And also far from the first time that the government has responded with violence.

Today, I want to talk about how these demonstrations fit into a long history of women's protest movements in Iran. And whether or not this time feels different. My guest today is Mona Tajali. She's an associate professor of international relations and women's gender and sexuality studies at Agnes Scott College in Georgia. She's also the author of the recent book, Women's Political Representation in Iran and Turkey, demanding a seat at the table. Mona, hi. Thank you so much for being here. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. So I'm hoping we can start today by diving into some history here because you've written about

how these demonstrations we're seeing right now are growing from a long history of women's activism within Iran. So I want to start all the way back in 1979, just weeks after the Islamic revolution. Even then, women were taking to the streets, right? And can you tell me about that time and what was happening? Right. And can you tell me about that time and what was happening? Yes. Yes, of course. So the revolution that took place in 1979, it was not an Islamic revolution. Right. It was a popular revolution of people across different groups. Right. It was quite diverse. We had Marxist groups.

We had secular groups. We had religious groups that really came together. They poured into the streets to topple a government that they deemed to be corrupt and authoritarian, which was the Pahlavi regime. My passion, my passion, my passion. I don't want to be a slave, I don't want to be a slave. My passion, my passion. So I think that's important for us to keep in mind that the people did not pour into the streets in order to have a theocracy, right? In order to establish a theocratic regime. But rather they wanted to see, you know, drastic change. But then what ended up happening soon after, unfortunately, was that the extremist groups, the extremist clerical

groups, of course, represented by Atala Khomeini at the time. For the people of Iran, the arrival of his jetliner signaled the beginning of even more radical social and political changes than have already taken place. Khomeini, almost unknown outside of Iran just a few months ago, returned a hero, the man who from long distance had led the revolution to topple the Shah. They were able to succeed in establishing a theocracy, and they did so by having their more extremist sort of interpretations of Islam enter into politics and society. And so one of, you know, and of course, we know that ideologies, whether it's extremist secular ideology, or whether it's extremist religious ideology, they often play themselves out on women's bodies. So of course, gender became

such a prominent thing for the for the theocracy. And and there were rumors at the time that okay, well, now that we're going to be in Islamic country, women need to be veiled. There needs to be gender segregation. And just from hearing those rumors, women panicked. And many of them, again, across ideological groups, they poured into the streets on March 8th, 1979, in order to really protest and to say, this is not why we just poured into the streets to topple, you know, a monarchy, right? It's not that we wanted to replace one authoritarian group with another.

We want that sort of Islamic justice that we were asking for. And this is not, this is not going to, you know, definitely elevate our status and give us what we're deserving. In Iran, International Women's Day was marked with a demonstration that stressed the split between old and new, between tradition and freedom. Thousands of women forsook the traditional black veil in favor of Western clothes and marched through Tehran demanding equal rights. Unfortunately, although women poured into the streets and they protested on that day, they did not get a lot of support from other political groups, particularly from men.

And it was violently cracked down. Today's demonstrations brought to the surface Iran's simmering post-revolutionary tensions. There were angry men denouncing the women's movement as a threat to the Islamic revolution. But nonetheless, women never remained silent. They always protested. And in fact, it's important to keep in mind that mandatory veiling was not able to be enforced in Iran until 1981. How come? Until two years after, because of because of this, because the protests. So it happened in waves. It happened. You know, so first they said, OK, OK, just kidding. You know, no, we're not going to do mandatory veiling right off the get go. Maybe just some offices, some government offices.

You need to put on your veil when you enter those. And then, you know, gradually it became sort of a state law. And the other factor was that Iran-Iraq war, right? That when Saddam Hussein attacked Iran, a lot of these civil rights issues were just put on the back burner because many felt that it was more important to protect Iran's borders against Saddam Hussein attacked Iran. A lot of these civil rights issues were just put on the back burner because many felt that it was more important to protect Iran's borders against Saddam. A lot of your research has looked at the period from 97 to 2005, known as the Reform Era. And can you tell me a bit about that time and the explosion of feminist activism in Iran during that time? What that era did, so 1997 was sort of an important moment in modern Iranian history because a little-known cleric, Mohammad Khatami,

he won with a landslide in the 1997 presidential elections. And that success was in large part due to women and the youth very much just getting energized by his campaign for reform. very much just getting energized by his campaign for reform. His power comes from the street, not the mosque. An extraordinary 70% of the popular vote. Not a revolution, but a massive call for reform from a young and disillusioned generation. And so what that era represented for women's rights groups, for student rights groups, was sort of a window of opportunity. The image that Khatami was presenting of Iran was one that you could have religion, you know, religious ideals and values, while at the same time, you could have respect for human rights and human dignity. And that really appealed to large sections of the society. So we actually saw

women taking advantage of this window of opportunity. And they, you know, established lots of women's NGOs. We had women's journals flourish around this time. We had Islamic feminism really reach its height and actually have a platform for itself to be able to talk. These are women who, you know, some refer to them as sort of new religious thinkers, those who are trained in religion, but nonetheless, they definitely do not see a contradiction between their faith and, you know, concepts of gender equality. So those were really important sort of factors. And when you saw, you know, women being able to push for reform from within the state, from within the formal structures, they also got

the support of a large sections of the secular groups, the secular feminist groups. So we actually were able to see some important collaborations and sort of cooperations happen from women across the ideological spectrum. So not just religious women, but also secular women sort of joining forces in order to recognize that gender equality is in significant demand, and we need to, you know, make our demands public to the state. There was all this activism during this period, but then things changed, right, in Iranian politics and for the women's movement that you're talking about. So what happened? Yes. So when we had the reformists, so Iran, we don't have, you know, clear political parties or political party platforms. What exists instead is sort of what we call factional politics. So you

have groups that maybe orchestrate as political parties right before elections. And the two dominant factions at that time were particularly the reformist faction and the conservative faction. The conservative faction started getting more nervous. And there's also in Iranian politics, we have sort of bodies that are elected and others that are non-elected. And the non-elected bodies, particularly the role of the Supreme Leader, is one that is very much so far has been sort of in line with that more conservative faction. And when they got nervous, what they started doing was making sure that maybe those individuals or those reformers who really wanted to challenge the status quo or challenge,

you know, the theocratic regime, that they would silence them. And the way they did this was just to not qualify them to run for election. So it was basically sort of orcish engineered elections that were happening. And this had a big effect on women's issues and women's rights concerns because of the fact that it sort of led to a silencing of some of the policies and concerns that women had with regards to gender equality, those were no longer maybe debated or talked about in the parliament in other ways. And we also saw an extensive crackdown on those women's NGOs that I saw, on women's journals, journalism, all of those were sort

of restricted because of this group very much feeling threatened by this popular support for the reform. And is it fair for me to say that these crackdowns also coincided with the election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Yes, exactly. So there was another sort of window of hope that presented itself following the first term of Ahmadinejad being a president. That happened in 2009 presidential elections when we had, again, some critical reformist candidates running for the presidency. And again, the youth and women campaigned extensively for their election, which was quite significant just to see how energized they felt at that time. But unfortunately, the results of the election was that Ahmadinejad was reelected,

and many felt that this was a contentious election. Iran's most divisive election brought out a record turnout, some 85% of eligible voters. Reformists were certain of victory, riding on a seemingly widespread call for change. And so we saw the birth of the Green Movement when again women and youth were at the forefront protesting and demanding, where's my vote?

A show of mourning for the victims of earlier protests, but no less another show of disdain for the government. Once again, tens of thousands of pro-reform protesters seize the streets in Tehran, adamant they will keep coming back until they get new elections. That was sort of the central demand where they were really questioning elections in Iran and in part also questioning the legitimacy of the state. And yes, that also once, you know, the hardliners again showed their literal tolerance of this was that there was extensive crackdown. There was extensive crackdown on reformist parties, on women's rights groups. Women's rights activists were forced to flee

after years of harassment. So, yes, they definitely were able to silence those voices that, as I said, challenged the status quo. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. If we could jump to 2017, there was this movement that began called the Girls of Revolution Street.

And can you describe that a little and what you found in your research about how that movement was maybe different from earlier waves of women's activism in Iran? So we did see a group of women that in a very strategic, nonviolent way without uttering a word, just getting onto public spaces like platforms onto busy streets of Tehran and just very silently removing their headscarf and waving it in the streets. Standing on a power box, her headscarf on that stick is Vida Movahed. She became known as the girl of Revolution Street, the Tehran road where this happened back in December. Worryingly, she disappeared soon after, arrested. Inspired by Movahed, the girls, plural, of Revolution Street are all over social media.

One, then another, then more, new pictures almost every day. And it started by one, and then very quickly it spread to many others. We saw women across different ages do this, across different regions, across different ethnicities do this. And of course, many men also showed their interest. What I saw it being different from other forms of activism was the girls of the Revolution Street and many other sort of protests that we saw against mandatory bailing. There were just so many women that did this,

particularly young women that were just so fed up, but maybe they were not necessarily associated with a feminist group, with a student organization. The context made them feminists, right? Not that they went and they read it, but they realized that, hey, this is quite unfair. This is unjust and I I'm not going to remain silent. We had many religious women also express their support for this, which is also what I found

in my research, that we even had women from within the Islamic Republic, from women within the parliament that said, hey, we need to pay attention to this, right? We have our own daughters basically saying, you know, we don't agree with mandatory veiling. Should we revisit this? Should we look at this? And they did. And they, you know, and they did research on it and they found out that, yes, in fact, in their conservative sort of measurements, half of the Iranian population do not agree with mandatory veiling. They would like to have what they call sort of, you know, for it to not be this fixed form of dress from the state, but for it to take different shapes based on what the population wants.

At that time, as the conversation about compulsory veiling moved from the streets into parliament, how did the government respond? Unfortunately, again, very little tolerance. And at that point, I think it's when the Muslim headscarf really began to become this sort of symbol of the theocracy, because we saw the extent to which some hardliners were going to go in order to protect this, right, in order to protect that sort of extremist version of the Muslim headscarf. And so, again, when they saw this sort of reformist-oriented parliament take place, which was in the parliament from 2016 all the way to 2020, they then said, OK, well, we're not going to allow such critical voices to enter the parliament again. So then they disqualified incumbent women to run again for another round of elections. And then again, we saw the conservatives basically being the only candidates available, the only viable candidates available.

And that's when we saw for the 2020 elections for the parliament and the 2021 elections for the presidency, that's when we saw masses of the Iranian population, large sections of the Iranian population, really decide that elections might not be the way forward. So then we saw an extensive campaign for boycott of the elections. Millions of frustrated Iranians have stopped hoping that voting will improve their lives. This man posted a plea to boycott the election.

My vote, he says, is for the downfall of the dictator and the criminals who've sold out the country. And the same women that I had been researching for years who were, you know, hopeful of reform, they then campaigned for boycott of the elections. And that was a really interesting shift that I saw in the society because they were saying we cannot continuously give our legitimacy to a regime that we feel is just death tone to much of our demands. That's so interesting. You talked about how the veil became the symbol for the theocracy. Is it fair to assume that they may see giving an inch on the hijab as potentially leading somewhere they don't want to go, right? Like, what do you think their fear is about where this could go? Yeah, I mean, it definitely is a symbol. I think some commentators have sort of made the analogy

that the Muslim headscarf is similar to like the Berlin Wall for that ideology, right? That with its fall, could it mean the fall of a particular ideology? So I think it is an important question for us to think about. And if there's going to be a concession, I think that's where the key concern is at the moment is, are the women going to see freedom of choice when it comes to the dress, while still retaining sort of that, that theocratic structure. I think that's the part that is quite unpredictable. I don't know. I mean, so I think another thing to keep in mind is that the Islamic Republic of Iran is also not a monolith, the same way the population is not a monolith, neither is the state. And you do have diverse voices from within that, right? Some are saying, hey, is this worth us fighting tooth and nail for a piece of cloth? Or is it worth for us to maybe give discussion on this issue, which is a major,

major accomplishment. On the other hand, yes, there are going to be fears coming from the hardliners in the sense of, you know, is there going to be violent crackdown, which is what we're seeing on university campuses, which is quite worrying. Reports of plainclothes police being deployed to campuses have stirred concerns of a further lethal crackdown against young, peaceful protesters. So I think there's a lot of discussions happening for both within the state and among the public and the intellectuals. It's so clear listening to you that the groundwork for what we're seeing now has been laid by to encompass like a whole lot of other, like a wide cross section of people, right? And maybe even more like cross gender lines, class lines, political and religious lines, people who are angry about a lot of different issues as well. And why is that? Like, what has happened

in Iranian society to make so many different groups of people feel like they also need to be in the streets right now? Yeah, that's that's really a good question. So there's a number of different things that that has been happening. I think first and foremost was women being at the forefront of the most recent protest has really energized large sections of the society. As you mentioned, we've had previous protests. We had extensive protests in 2017. We had extensive protests in 2019. And they've been for, you know, different issues, yet connected issues. Right. So we've had protests because of economical hardships on the population. We've had protests because of environmental catastrophes

on the population. What they have in common is that they're all trying to express their grievances from the state that they feel is not listening to them, not hearing their demands. But they also are somewhat different

in the sense that these other protests, they all felt energized by women being at the forefront. And they saw this as an opportunity to then come out and also utter their own grievances again, right? So we saw the ethnic minorities, you know, whether in the East, whether in the West, you know, come out and pour out and say, hey, enough is enough, right? We saw labor unions, we saw academic institutions, right, Who are just so fed up with having limited academic freedom. Also joined forces to say, hey, we're going to stand in solidarity with the women while at society that their demands are part and parcel with the larger demands for democracy and human rights that many other Iranians hold, and that we all need to

sort of utter these in a united voice. And that's what we're seeing happening, right? And I think this solidarity is extremely powerful across different ethnicities, particularly among the ethnic Kurds, across class, across religious ideology, across regions. I mean, diverse regions of Iran. We're not seeing this only in major, major cities. We're seeing it, you know, in completely, you know, sometimes even rural areas that are that are disenfranchised in their own ways from the state structure and have their own grievances. So I think this is yet another opportunity to really be able to shake the system to say there is extensive disapproval of the way things are. At the same time, though,

I've heard some Iranians here in Canada describe a certain sense of futility here about what's going on right now. Because, as we've talked about during this conversation, we've seen this government weather protest after protest after protest without really relinquishing any power or giving any concessions. And do you feel that too? Yeah, I don't know. I think that's that is really hard to say at this moment. We are talking about we on behalf of the state, we are talking about a group that is feeling that they feel threatened and they would want to protect their power, right? And some of them are willing to take extreme means, including extensive violence and crackdown, to do so. Others may not feel that within this. I think there is a social revolution that just took place. The social

revolution is that women are now at the forefront and the larger public is recognizing that their demands are quite central to the larger demands of anything else that you want to be asking for. But whether this social revolution will lead to a political revolution, whether we will have concessions, major concessions come from, you know, allowing a referendum or allowing set of elections to take place. That is the part that I think discussions need to be had about, you know, from the Iranians themselves, right? So I think, you know, a lot of us outside, we feel so many different feelings at the moment. Some of it is despair. Some of it is hope. But at the same time, we all need to recognize

that this is an important moment. And let's give time and chance to those individuals to really decide how do they want to shape their future. What we can do here from abroad is obviously elevating those voices, right? It's obviously recognizing that this is something that's happening across the country. It's historical. It's not just this time, right? It's definitely been going on and, you know, supporting those individuals by really elevating their voices so that the crackdown is hopefully not going to be to the extent that we fear. Mona, thank you so much for this. This was really, really fascinating. My pleasure. My pleasure to talk to you about this important topic. talks to you about this important topic. All right, that to cbc.ca slash podcasts.