Front Burner - The long road ahead for US President-elect Joe Biden

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

Joe Biden is now U.S. president-elect. But Donald Trump is still in the White House. And there are no signs of a co-operative transition on the horizon. Today, longtime CBC Washington correspondent Keith Boag returns to explain the uphill battles Biden is facing on everything from the coronavirus response to uniting a divided country.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. So for now, he's just president-elect. But it really does seem like Joe Biden is raring to go. The challenge before us right now is still immense and growing.

And although we are not in office yet, I'm just laying out what we expect to do and hope can be done some of it between now and the time we were sworn in. Meanwhile, the sitting president, Donald Trump, has yet to concede. Keith Bogue was a longtime CBC Washington correspondent, and he joins me to talk about the obstacles that lie ahead for President-elect Joe Biden. This is FrontBurner. Hi, Keith. Thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast. I have so been looking forward to this conversation. Well, thanks for inviting me. It's nice to talk to you again. So we don't know yet if Trump will concede, but he's signaling right now that he won't. He's most recently been retweeting right wing news media clips, essentially talking about fraud and stolen elections. We have to be able to deal with the nature of the legitimacy of this and if it can be legitimate.

I do think the president has some legal avenues to pursue. What happened in Pennsylvania over these recent weeks is a constitutional travesty. And CNN is now reporting that an all campaign meeting has been called and that they still think that he could win this. So we know that there are these lawsuits filed in Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Nevada. And last we heard from Trump, he's wanting to go ahead with these lawsuits. Experts are saying they're a long shot. And why? Why are they a long shot? Because the evidence such as we know it doesn't indicate, A, that they have a strong case in terms of what they're presenting. And B,

in terms of what they're presenting, they don't have a case that would overturn the election results. Those are two separate but important points. What we're seeing now is what Donald Trump told us to expect and he's not accepting the reality of the result. He's being stubborn and difficult and actually harmful to the transition process. This is a fraud on the American public. This is an embarrassment to our country. But what we know of Donald Trump from four or five years watching him in politics and however much longer watching him as an entertainer is that he doesn't take these kinds of things well. He's not somebody who can accept defeat. He has a capacity to invent a reality all of his own and to not really care

what the consequences of that are. So what we're seeing now is the 2020 version of birtherism. Birtherism was the hoax that he began his political career on that defined Barack Obama's presidency as illegitimate. Three weeks ago when I started, I thought he was probably born in this country. And now I really have a much bigger doubt. He spent $2 million in legal fees trying to get away from this issue. And what Trump is doing now is defining Joe Biden's win and his status as president-elect illegitimate as well. This idea that the campaign still thinks that they could win this, that they're still in

this fight, are there any other options they have besides these lawsuits? Not really, no, unless they believe that they could create a massive civil uprising that will take the government by force, they're going to go. What is happening right now is that people are trying to adjust their own political interests with how they behave with the president. They want to be able to get through this with the president leaving office, but not have the president aligned against them as one of their enemies for the future of their own ambitions. So none of the people that you see in charge who should be coming forward, from Mitch McConnell to other leaders of the Republican Party to senators like Ted Cruz who might harbor presidential ambitions of his own.

Despite the media trying to tell everyone, give up, go home, we know who we want to win, that's not how it works. We need to follow the law, and that means allowing the legal process to play out. To Lindsey Graham. If Republicans don't challenge and change the U.S. election system, there'll never be another Republican president elected again. President Trump should not concede. All of these people have an eye to their own political future and what it would mean to the base of the party if they were to be branded by them as traitors. I think that's the only explanation for what's happening now.

And can we talk a little bit more about what it could mean for them? Like, what could this mean for Mitch McConnell? And the courts are here to work through concerns. And President Trump is 100% within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal options. Well, you know, McConnell is a shrewd operator. And at this moment, I would think that he considers that time is still going to be on his side or on the side of reality, that eventually Donald Trump is going to have to recognize that he's not going to be the president anymore. He just doesn't want to get too far out in front of that. But you know that he already predicted that the election will be decided

because all the votes will have been counted. Blaming you when the election is different from finishing the counting. is different from finishing the counting. At some point, he knows that he is going to have to reject Trump's fantasy world. And I guess his hope is that before that time comes, Trump will accept that it is a fantasy and deal with reality itself. But the time is marching. Each day, this gets progressively more dangerous for a smooth transition. And you can see already that parts of the administration that should be turning over the information, the expertise, the files on what the government is up to, what the history is, what's been done, all of that is being delayed.

And it shouldn't be delayed. That should have begun already. All of that is being delayed, and it shouldn't be delayed. That should have begun already. There is a process that was put in place in the United States after 9-11 that meant that there was a legal requirement for presidential candidates to have transition teams, and that they needed to develop plans for transition in power that were cooperative plans. What should be happening at this moment is that there should be meetings

being scheduled by the outgoing heads of the administrative service, that is the secretaries of state, of commerce and so on, the national security advisor. Those meetings should be being scheduled so that they can get together and talk both sides of them about the realities facing the new administration coming in. But that is not happening and it's not happening because Donald Trump's just too stubborn to admit that he lost the election. And what's the impact of all of that, the stubbornness to actually transition to power? What impact could that have on Joe Biden's upcoming presidential run? Well, I mean, consider how big the united states government is it's arguably the largest organization in the world handing the control of that from one person to another particularly when when they are on different political parties is a monumental task and though it seems like there's a long time

to do it 70 some days are left there really isn't there's just so much work that needs to be done to make the transition smooth and the requirement for a smooth transition is a national security issue. So it's very important. But it's not happening now because, as I said, Donald Trump is just too stubborn to admit that he's lost and he's slowing down a process that's necessary and vital to the health of the government of the United States. It also strikes me, I can't help thinking that he's going to be president for the next 11 weeks, too. And what can a sitting duck president do during this time? Well, he still has all of the powers of the presidency. But in a lame duck session, I mean, the essential definition of the lame duck is that that person has lost the legitimacy to

exercise the power that he holds, because the successor has been identified, and the succession path is already underway. Donald Trump clearly is not respecting any of that. And so, you know, the extent to which he wishes to continue to use his power is going to be held in check only by the will of other elected officials, by the Congress and so on. But some of the things he can continue to do that people expect him to do is to use his power of pardon. There are a lot of people who are in legal difficulty who have associations with the Trump administration, not the least of which is Trump himself. And in some cases, Trump may wish to make sure that they're protected from

the justice system or to pardon some of those who have already been in the justice system, such as Paul Manafort, for instance, his former campaign manager, who has a prison sentence against him. He may wish to pardon people like that. So we can expect to see those things. He also has the power of appointments. But I think there's, you know, without getting distracted by too many of those things, the most important power he has right now is to ensure this smooth transition of his presidency to a Joe Biden presidency. And he just doesn't seem prepared

to do that. Can I just ask you one thing you just said, that Donald Trump is facing some legal problems of his own, and that he has the power to pardon. Is it possible for Donald Trump to pardon himself? We don't know. I mean, it seems illogical. And you could imagine that, you know, he may attempt to pardon himself and that, you know, a constituency somewhere in the country might seek standing to challenge that in the courts and that it would get all the way up to the Supreme Court.

And perhaps the Supreme Court would decide that, you know, this question has never been answered before. And so we'll answer it and know he doesn't have that power, but we won't apply it retroactively so he can't apply it to himself. There remains, however, a question about whether it does him any good. He has the power to pardon in federal jurisdictions. It's not clear that he can pardon in jurisdictions outside of that. And one of those jurisdictions is the Southern District of New York, where there are investigations into his businesses. Spring, an attorney general of New York, Letitia James, is looking into allegations that possibly the Trump organization

might have inflated some property values. And no one is above the law, including the Trump organization, and no one individual. And they may be insulated from any power he might have or think he has to pardon himself, or that any other president might have to pardon him as well. I'm leaving open the possibility that for the good of the nation, it's possible that a Democratic president might think that we need to put this all behind us. I wouldn't bet on that, but I think it's clearly possible. Gerald Ford, for instance, pardoned Richard Nixon. Very interesting. Only I, as president, have the constitutional power to firmly shut and seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my duty not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility,

but to use every means that I have to ensure it. In the Dragon's Den, I'm going to go. through angel investment and industry connections. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to talk about Biden a little bit more. I know that he's planning a bunch of executive orders as soon as he takes office, including to rejoin the Paris Climate Accord and to stop the coronavirus. We can get this virus under control, I promise you. We can rebuild our economy back better than it was before. We can address race-based disparities that damage our country. It's in our power. And I want to talk about the coronavirus for a minute. Cases are spiking across the United States. This is the worst that they've seen the epidemic so far.

And what challenges does Biden face in turning around the coronavirus response, especially given all these obstacles that you've just outlined? Okay, well, first of all, as we know quite pointedly this week, this is a moving target. Things are changing all the time. The news that there might be a vaccine sooner than expected has certainly changed the conversation to some degree. Pfizer coming out this morning saying that the vaccine that it is developing with BioNTech is 90% effective. The company's also saying no serious safety concerns have been observed. Pfizer's CEO.

It is a great day for science. It is a great day for humanity. But Biden is hampered in the same way that Trump was hampered in as far as he does not have complete jurisdiction over the entire country to implement a comprehensive plan to deal with coronavirus. The governors may get ahead of him. They may fall behind him. There is this mood in some parts of the country that the whole thing is a hoax anyway. The idea that you wear masks has become, rather than a health requirement, has become a political issue, a political football. rather than a health requirement has become a political issue, a political football. But nevertheless, as you rightly point out, Biden has been signaling that this is a priority. It doesn't matter whether or not we always agree with one another.

It doesn't matter who you voted for. We are Americans and our country is under threat. He has named this 13-member virus task force to deal with it. They'll come up with proposals, I assume very quickly, and that one of the things that Biden will want to do is move forward in whatever ways he can before his inauguration. In other words, to get the cooperation of whatever agents are necessary in the community to understand that there is going to be a new way of dealing with the coronavirus and to begin to adopt whatever measures this task force might recommend. There's also in the business community a recognition that the new president of the

United States is going to be much more seriously aggressive in dealing with the virus. And any comprehensive solution to managing this is going to have to involve business. And I think, you know, business has such an interest in this because the economy and the virus are so closely linked that I think the certainty of the direction will be, I think that will be encouraging to them, even if some of the measures that they're asked to embrace are difficult. them, even if some of the measures that they're asked to embrace are difficult. I also want to talk to you about how Joe Biden brings the country together here, which has been this remarkably consistent message. Basically, his whole campaign was about bringing the country

together. On Saturday night, he talked about the need for cooperation. I'll work as hard for those who didn't vote for me as those who did. Let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now. of the Republican Party for the last four years. And now that he's lost the election, what do you think is going to happen to Trump's brand of politics? It clearly isn't going to disappear. Yeah, I think one of the messages of the result was that Trump may have been defeated, but whatever you think Trumpism is, it is alive and well and got more than 70 million votes on November 3rd. And so it is a real force to be reckoned with for Democrats. But it's also going to be a force to be considered very carefully by the other constituencies that were the representatives of Trumpism, such as it were, which includes not just the Republican Party, but media outlets, in particular Fox News. Are they going to continue with the Trump message that signals that the outcome of the election

was rigged, that Trump is correct and Biden is illegitimate? If they do those kinds of things, there is such a closed media circuit echo chamber on the right that it might be, it will be difficult and it might be impossible for Joe Biden to break through that. It is a very, it's a very strange situation in the United States right now, that does not really have precedent, because you have a whole large constituency in the United States that questions science, questions facts, questions the media, questions the institutions of democracy. And they do so with a lot of reinforcement from their political agents in the Republican Party.

And those challenges are the really big challenges that the country faces. It doesn't begin and end with the election and then defeat of Donald Trump. There are much more serious divisions within the community to deal with, and it's going to be a monumental task for the new president. And the fact that you mentioned 70 million people have voted for him, what does that tell you about those people, about the country? I think it tells you that they have enjoyed the world that Trump has opened up for them, that Trump has allowed them to believe that they don't need to worry about climate change, for instance, that they don't need to worry about the racial divisions in the country, that they don't need to worry about all of the things they've been told they have to worry about by Democrats over the last couple of decades, that they can believe

in a kind of hazy reality where their view of things is the truth and anyone who questions it is dishonest, uninformed, just plain wrong. Basically, that Trump makes people feel like they don't have to worry. That's interesting. He gives them hope in places where they were told they shouldn't look for it. Yeah. Whether that's fair to them, because, I mean, what is the point of telling people that coal is coming back when it clearly isn't? What is the point of that? But one of the strongest human emotions there is, Jamie, is our ability to believe the things

that we want to believe. Trump knows that better than anyone, and that's the emotion that he's exploiting, our willingness to believe what we want to believe. Keith, one more question for you today. It strikes me that the problems go so far beyond one person, you know, that this is so much to put on Joe Biden's shoulders, where we're talking about a society that's polarized. You talked about the media landscape, the role that social media has played. Do you think that there is a political solution to bringing this country together? Or is the idea that I'm even asking this question kind of like a pipe dream? No, I don't think it's a pipe dream. I don't know what

the answer is. But I think a few months ago, German Chancellor Angela Merkel suggested that maybe the coronavirus is the antidote to populism and some of the strains found within populism that are anti-science, anti-truth and anti-fact. Maybe that's right. Maybe what we're seeing in the news this week with the announcement that a vaccine might soon be ready and effective and safe is a way of telling people that, no, science does work, that complex problems like coronavirus are real. They're deadly. They're dangerous.

They can be fixed. They can be solved. But you have to believe in the science because the science not only explains what's happening, the science can find the solution to the problem. But that may just be me and Angela Merkel. Well, Keith, it's very nice to end on that. You're going to let me get away with that, eh?

It's very nice to end on that hopeful note. We haven let me get away with that, eh? It's very nice to end on that hopeful note. We haven't had a lot of those lately. So thank you very much. Well, it's great to talk to you, Janie. Take care. All right. So before we go today, as Keith mentioned in our conversation, there was some positive news on the coronavirus vaccine front on Monday. The drug giant Pfizer has announced that early data suggests their vaccine may be up to 90% effective. This Pfizer vaccine is one of seven that Canada has pre-ordered, and we're

going to have more on this development on tomorrow's show, so I hope that you'll tune in. That's all for today, though. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and talk to you soon. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.