Front Burner - The perpetual Marvel machine

Episode Date: July 23, 2019

Marvel Studios has announced plans for the latest phase of the Marvel cinematic universe, setting the world of deep superhero fandom abuzz. On Front Burner, we speak to Eli Glasner, CBC's national entertainment reporter and film critic, about what Western cinema gains and loses.

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If you thought Avengers Endgame was the end for your favorite Marvel superheroes, well, I have some news for you. This weekend at Comic-Con in San Diego, California, Marvel Studios boss Kevin Feige announced the next

phase of the company's already sprawling cinematic universe. Now, for those of you who don't know, that's the series of interconnected films, TV shows based on Marvel superheroes and storylines, which by some counts started with Iron Man in 2008 and supposedly ended 22 movies and 11 television series later with this year's Avengers Endgame. But you didn't really believe that, did you? Now I could spend 90 minutes talking about what we've done, or I could spend some time talking about what we're about to do.

Now there's a whole new slate of movies, TV shows, and characters coming to screens of all sizes over the next couple of years, and for fans, some choices that are sure to raise eyebrows. But it's also a testament to just how completely Disney has dominated Western media in recent years, and a sign of things to come in the company's fight against Netflix. I'm Matthew Braga, filling in for Jamie Poisson, and I'll be speaking to Eli Glasner, CBC's national entertainment reporter and film critic about what this means for moviegoers, movie makers, and really the industry writ large. That's coming up on Frontburner.

Hello, Eli. Hey, Matt. Thanks for coming on the show. Happy to be here. So I used to work down the hall from you, and I don't think a week went by when I didn't see you wearing some sort of superhero T-shirt underneath, you know, another shirt, a blazer. You dressed it up really well. You clearly like this stuff. I do. How are you feeling this week? You know, a bit of a putz because I was saying, you know, Comic-Con, Marvel hasn't really been doing a lot at Comic-Con the past couple of years. And then come the weekend and just when you're recovering from Avengers Endgame, they announce the next phase and just an avalanche of new characters, new titles, spin-offs, some really exciting casting. characters, new titles, spinoffs, some really exciting castings.

So, yeah, I mean, I'm feeling a little sheepish, but also excited about the years and years and years ahead. And you say that with a grin on your face, which is good. Now, I have to confess, I haven't seen Avengers Endgame, which I know. Is that allowed? Well, apparently not, because apparently everybody else has seen it, because it has now surpassed Avatar as the highest grossing movie of all time. All time. All time.

You know, I've seen other films. I've seen Iron Man. I've seen the Spider-Man movies, Guardians of the Galaxy. I've had fun. But I think I'll admit that I'm suffering from a little bit of Marvel fatigue. There's a lot of films. It's a lot to keep up with. How long have you been Ant-Man again?

A race of noble warriors. Heroes. Whatever it takes. Thank you, Spider-Man. Yet, looking at some of the people involved in this next batch of films, hearing words like weird and gothic horror being tossed around, so I'll admit I'm a little intrigued. I want to know, of these new movies and TV shows they've announced,

what Marvel is calling Phase 4, what are you excited about? What should I be excited about? Lady Thor. Thor, love and thunder. Nothing more powerful in the world than love and thunder. Why? So there's a great comic series a little while ago,

and Thor, Los Thor loses the hammer. Jane Foster, who, by the way, has cancer, picks up hammer, now is the mighty Thor. Whoever is worthy, man or woman, she becomes Thor. Taika Waititi coming back to direct this. For us, there's only one person who could play that role. Please, welcome to the the stage Natalie Portman. And so not only do we get to find out what happens to Thor when he doesn't have the hammer,

but we have now Natalie Portman coming back into the Marvel fray to play a female version of the Thunder God. And on top of that, Tessa Thompson back as Valkyrie, and she has spoken over the weekend. I think, first of all, as king, as new king, she needs to find her queen. So that would be... So Lady Thor, gay love story, Taika Waititi. I mean, that I think is the one I am most anticipating. Then you've got Shang-Chi, so the first Asian superhero, basically.

A very prominent cast there with Isimu Mu, of course, from Kim's Convenience. Here's the thing. When I was 16, my dad kicked me out. Or I might have run away. It's all kind of blurry. I believe in Kim's Convenience just as much as I believe in Shang-Chi. I think they're part of that same fight. They're two slightly different weapons, but they're so important.

So a lot of people very excited that not only do we have a Canadian actor, but a Chinese-Canadian actor playing Shang-Chi. Did I cry? I did. I cried hysterically. Hysterically. It was honestly as if I had found a genie in a cave, and he was like, what is the craziest thing you've ever dreamed up? What is the gist in a sentence for those who do not know? He's a martial arts master. Someone told me he also has the power to duplicate himself, which I just learned.

So honestly, like I didn't even know that. He was like a B or C character that would show up in the odd Avengers comic. He was like a B or C character that would show up in the odd Avengers comic. But that's what Marvel does is they pull out these characters from the past and throw them in. And then on top of that, we have The Eternals, directed by Chloe Zhao, who is this remarkable independent director, made this beautiful portrait of a film called The Rider. No more riding. No more rodeos. If you don't stop, your seizures are going to get worse. And now she is making a tale about demigods and demons set on Earth with, like, space and fantasy and Angelina Jolie.

Oh, and by the way, there's going to be a deaf character, a deaf superhero in that film. Lauren, what does it mean to you to portray the first deaf hero in the MCU? I have to say, well, I do have a son and he asked me after he read Greek mythology, he was reading through that. He's like, what does honor mean? This, this is what honor means. I'm so honored to be here. So you can see that Marvel, I mean, it's kind of like the gloves are off. But in that, like, creatively speaking, like, they really are making some bold plays here. Mahershala Ali, Blade, a movie known for its infamous blood rave scene.

Yeah, you know, that's huge. I mean, Love Ali, a two-time Oscar winner, he walked into the Marvel offices and said Blade, and they said yes. And you could make the case that Blade kind of was the template for what Marvel does now, in that that was a comic book that was not very successful, not widely read.

The movies, especially the first two, were huge hits and show that you could take, again, like a minor character, and if you do it the right way, then you can have a blockbuster. And that's kind of become the Marvel signature. Most of the representation I had at the time were very against me doing the Blade Runner.

They considered me a classical actor. And what made you want to do it? Oh, because I'd never seen a black vampire that did karate before. It was real simple. And I'm curious how much of that diversity is reflected in the source material. So for someone who hasn't picked up a comic book in years, maybe decades, or someone who maybe is only kind of going to the genre for the first time,

do you find a similar degree of representation in those pages? No, up until now, Marvel has been basically lagging behind what's been happening in the comic books. I mean, female Thor was many years ago. Right now, the main Hulk in the Avengers is She-Hulk. Iceman in the X-Men team has been gay and out for quite some time.

And so I think in the comic books where there's less risk and the writers are able to just play around that sandbox, they really have been messing around with that and trying things. And we saw a black Captain America essentially come and go a few years ago. So I want to talk a little bit more about directors like Taika and others who have been brought into the fold. I understand that some of the directors in this latest phase of movies,

maybe not the most obvious choice. We've talked a little bit about Chloe Zhao. We've talked a little bit about Chloe Zhao. We've talked a little bit about Taika. What is different about bringing these people into the fold compared to some of the films that we've seen in the past? I think what Marvel is doing is looking for directors with an interesting voice, someone with something to say, and someone that can kind of keep the Marvel world fresh. And so you look at something like Thor. And Thor, I mean, I love the character, the kind of big thunder god doofus. And I think Chris Hemsworth has made that richer and richer as it's gone on.

But then Taika Waititi came in, and just because of his style and his irreverence and maybe his background, maybe his point of view as an indigenous person, like all sorts of things went into the mix when he made Thor Ragnarok. You don't care about me. You're not my friend. No, I don't even like the whole piece. I'm like, I prefer you. It was just something that I felt like

this could be a career ender in a good way. This could be something that... The idea of it makes me very nervous. And I think Marvel realizes that brings in new audiences and new ideas and a new spirit to a character that might be getting a little kind of moldy.

And so it's a good idea to keep scouting Sundance and independent film and look for those voices that are going to bring it alive. I mean, they did it with James Gunn, who was a guy who made, you know, really interesting, smart, but goopy, scary horror films. Something's wrong with me. Slither.

And then he came in and they gave him this cast of like space rogues called Guardians of the Galaxy, a comic, again, that not many people had been following and made it sing and added another flavor to the Marvel universe. And I think that's what they're doing. I am. Well, that's just as fascinating as the first 89 times you told me that. What is wrong with giving tree here?

It's interesting because there was a story from argentine uh director lucretia martel who was talking about how she was approached to direct black widow and she said you know if i want to change the music for example i don't like the music in marvel movies if i want to change the music if i want to do fight scenes differently you know there's only so much you can really kind of play with it was was the feeling that she kind of uh had after coming out of these meetings. How much freedom do you have if you are someone like Taika Waititi, if you were someone like Chloe Zhao? Like, how do you how do you actually push back a little bit against that if you want to put your stamp on things? I think you have freedom, creatively speaking, in terms of like the style of the film and your conception of the characters.

like the style of the film and your conception of the characters. But because these characters are chess pieces in a larger story, like you can only go so far because they already know three movies down what's going to happen to Groot or the Scarlet Witch or Thor. One of the weirdest things I guess they've announced this week is something called WandaVision. I don't know what this is. Can you explain this to me? What is going on here? It's going to get weird. We're going to go deep. It's going to be surprising and weird. I can't tell you how exciting and different and strange that show is going to be. I can't tell you how exciting, indifferent, and strange that show is going to be.

So WandaVision is the Scarlet Witch and a cyborg named The Vision. And they were Avengers, and now they're going to be the stars of their own Disney Plus series. And I mean, I'm imagining some kind of like warped domestic comedy, like something about. Look, there there was an amazing series, a kind of a miniseries in the comics that was like this kooky, weird. It was their life actually raising a family. And the interesting thing about WandaVision is that it's also going to lead into the next Doctor Strange movie. going to lead into the next Doctor Strange movie. And so this is the like maniacal brilliance of Disney in that if you want to appreciate whatever the heck is happening to Benedict Cumberbatch in the forthcoming Doctor Strange and what is it called?

The multiverse of madness. Well, that's going to start with Wanda and Vision and what's happening there. And so, oh, if you think you could avoid subscribing to Disney+, you are sadly mistaken. And what is Disney+. So Disney+, will be basically Disney's streaming service. And it's being offered at a lower price than Netflix. Disney has already said they're going to take a loss for a number of years. So they're very aggressive in that they want you and all your friends to subscribe to Disney+. They have Star Wars, they have all the Marvel heroes. They also have all the Fox stuff

they bought. Acquiring 21st century Fox's movie and TV empire, which includes edgier assets like FX, Nat Geo, and a number of top-rated comic book franchises. But what is really interesting is up until now there were the Marvel movies. And then there was like some Marvel TV shows like Daredevil and S.H.I.E.L.D., Jessica Jones and all of that. Many of them on Netflix. And there wasn't necessarily that shared continuity. You'll notice none of the TV stars showed up in the latest Avengers explosion. But now moving forward, if you want to understand where we're going in the Marvel Universe and appreciate the next massive multiplex hit, the next Avengers Endgame or Infinity War, you pretty much will need to subscribe to Disney Plus just to try and keep

up and understand all the references and Easter eggs. What does that mean for Netflix? Where does that leave them? I think Netflix is in a really kind of precarious spot right now because they have a really aggressive offer from Disney. Disney, as I said, is undercutting them in terms of the subscription price. And at the same time, you have a lot of big studios now realizing that streaming is the future. And so they are yanking their content from the Netflix library. And Netflix, I don't know if they can build enough original content fast enough to compete with the massive library that Disney is now got. So speaking of that library, I just want to look ahead at sort of what's coming up on the next little while. We have Avengers Infinity War and Endgame. These movies were supposed to tie up the storylines of a couple of major characters. But on the horizon, we have Black Panther 2, we have Black Widow, we have the

Thor movie we've been talking about, and then all of this other stuff that we've also talked about that was unveiled over the weekend. Will Marvel ever do anything that is new, that is truly, you know, something that we've never seen before in a book exists for the first time in a film, just given all of the resources they have? They have so much money and so much talent. And in some ways, we're telling a lot of the same stories in a bit of a different way. I don't think so, because I think for them, the spark of so many of these stories

and one thing that helps propagate it out into the world is that fanboy and fangirl community. And so it starts when they say, we're making movie X, and then everybody gets all excited or riled up, depending on what they're doing and talking about the importance of that character. Oh, my God!

And if they just started from nothing, where's the rest of our pee? Where's the rest of our content? Where's the other books that we can tie in the rest of our content? Where's the other books that we can tie in? How is the community going to buy into that? Where is going to be the passion? So like some of the heroes like Shang-Chi that they're now developing are in the world of like comic fans, not big ones, but they do exist. And so there is already kind of like a baseline of affection or at least stuff to read and investigate there.

You don't pitch a screenplay of an unknown hero to Marvel. I think you try and get a job at Marvel writing comics and then hope that one day Kevin Feige looks down on you and goes, you, you are the one, and then you get to develop that franchise. I wonder if there's perhaps a cautionary tale, too, in Avatar. We talked earlier about how Avengers surpassed Avatar. Yeah.

But you look at Avatar, and sure, it made a ton of money, but it was such a big swing. Just the world building that was involved, the lengths that James Cameron went to try to create this brand new world, this brand new language, this brand new alien race from scratch. So we started down a process which ultimately took about two years, a little over two years, of in parallel designing everything, every creature, every plant, every tree, and in parallel designing our process for doing the performance capture. And, I mean, I guess it was popular, but, like, well, is that sort of maybe proof, perhaps, that, like, new creative endeavors, new franchises are hard and risky?

They are not hard. They are almost impossible. And now the exception to the rule. Look at the top box office from 2018. The top 20 films, except for one movie, were all pre-existing intellectual property of one kind or another. So they were either franchises, sequels, reboots, books adapted to film, except for, I think at like number 18, A Quiet Place. Who are we if we can't protect them?

We have to protect them. Right? That was something. He wrote that, directed it, became a thing, became a hit, fantastic film. Everything else was already something else. And I think the world that we're living in now, in terms of Hollywood, when you are making blockbusters for a global stage, and you are risking $150, $200 million,

you need that story and you need that film to perform internationally very successfully and you can't afford to take a risk on an unknown entity. And what's going to play well across the globe? It's going to be something with action, something with high stakes that are easy to understand no matter what language you speak. That brings us to the world of franchises and fairy tales and superheroes. And if you have

that sense of familiarity, you know, they figure, okay, well, that will cushion the risk. So if you will pardon the pun for a moment, what is the end game here for Marvel? I mean, how long does this go on for? Maybe this is a bad comparison, but, you know, we're not still watching Westerns every year today. Genres come and go. Where do we go from here? I don't see it ending anytime soon. I really don't.

I just it's almost like we're now like the Hollywood studio is being self-contained by Disney, right? Like even in Marvel, they can mix it up. We're like, yeah, it's not a Western, but it has a Western flavor. And like, this is sort of a horror film and this is a space opera. Like they are able to change enough flavors that we don't get tired of eating the same thing all the time. But at the same time, it all exists under the gloves of Mickey Mouse. And here's the other thing that we, well, I haven't forgotten.

Just as it starts to get a little stale, just as we're thinking, oh, you know, yeah, okay, the new Iron Man seems fine, but I still miss Robert Downey Jr. Then what they do, they bring in X-Men. They're still sitting on all that other stuff that they bought from Fox and they can freshen things up. A decade from now, it could be Avengers versus X-Men. That would not surprise me at all. Eli, I look forward to chatting with you then. Thanks. Thank you. Well, at this point in the show, it's probably not going to come as a surprise to find out that Disney and Marvel aren't just content with streaming and cinema. There's an Avengers video game on the way, too.

It's made in part by a Quebec company, Eidos Montreal. It's due out in May of 2020. It's apparently an original story separate from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And it's part of a multi-year, multi-game partnership between Marvel and Square Enix, which owns Eidos Montreal. That last bit is interesting

because while we've certainly seen quite a few Marvel games over the years, the last Spider-Man game was pretty good, their characters haven't dominated the gaming industry in quite the same way that they have on film. Well, that's all for today. I'm Matthew Braga, here for Jamie, and we'll see you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog.

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came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.