Front Burner - The political fallout from Paul Bernardo’s prison transfer

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

To the frustration and hurt of the families of Paul Bernardo’s victims, the notorious rapist and murderer has been moved from a maximum security prison to a medium security one. Conservatives are ...calling on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to intervene and move Bernardo back to a maximum security facility. They also want Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino to resign over how his office handled information about the transfer. Ashley Burke is a senior reporter at the CBC’s Parliamentary Bureau. She’s been looking into how the Liberals handled Bernardo’s move and the controversy that has followed. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

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Starting point is 00:00:00 In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. A warning before we begin today. This episode contains descriptions of Paul Bernardo's crimes, including murder and sexual assault. Hi, I'm Saroja Coelho. A few weeks ago, the families of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French had to face another horrible day. An explosion of outrage met the news of Paul Bernardo's new home, a medium security prison in Quebec.
Starting point is 00:00:52 The news that Paul Bernardo would be moved from a maximum security prison to a medium security one wasn't shared with the victim's families until the morning it happened. When they heard, their lawyer said it was extremely upsetting. Shock and disbelief. And then when they were able to catch their breath and compose themselves, they asked the obvious question, why? On what basis? What criteria? Paul Bernardo, who is 58, is serving a life sentence. He was convicted in 1995 of the kidnapping,
Starting point is 00:01:25 aggravated sexual assault, and first-degree murder of teenagers Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French, and he was declared a dangerous offender. He had been serving time in Millhaven, a maximum security prison in Bath, Ontario. Correctional Service of Canada says it deemed Bernardo could be safely managed in a medium security prison. But exactly why he was transferred to La Macasa Institution in the Laurentians' region of Quebec
Starting point is 00:01:50 is a big question the victim's families still have. And when I told them that they would not answer that question because of his privacy rights, it was like putting a spike through their chest. Now, Conservative leader Pierre Pogliere has been calling for Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino to resign over the transfer and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to step in and take action. Trudeau has the ability to put Bernardo back in a maximum security penitentiary. He has the power. All he needs is the will. He can do it today. If he doesn't... But is it the role of politicians to involve themselves in the specifics of individual
Starting point is 00:02:32 criminals' incarceration? Today, Ashley Burke is with me. She is a senior reporter at the CBC's Parliamentary Bureau, and we're going to talk about this case and the controversy that it sparked in Ottawa. Hi, Ashley. Hi. What was it about Paul Bernardo's crimes in the late 80s and the early 90s that terrified and raged Canadians so deeply? Well, initially before police caught him, Paul Bernardo was referred to as the Scarborough Rapist. And many of his victims were stalked after they got off the bus late at night and raped, some in their backyards,
Starting point is 00:03:17 in front of their home or in the bushes. And people were terrified, especially young girls. Police didn't get very far at that time until a victim was able to provide details of his face so they could make a computer composite image, and that's when others came forward with Bernardo's name. DNA testing at that time, it was new, and police took samples of Bernardo's DNA, but they were not convinced it was him. Eventually, Bernardo admitted to the sexual assault of at least 14 women in southern Ontario. And at one point, he faced 53 charges related to murder and rape. Paul Bernardo meets Carla Homolka. She would eventually become his wife. She became a partner in his crimes.
Starting point is 00:03:57 And with her involvement, Bernardo raped and killed two teenage girls, 14-year-old Leslie Mahaffey and 15-year-old Kristen French. He kept saying, go through what we're going to do. So I said, well, if we see a girl, we're going to stop. I'm going to ask for directions. I'm going to try and get her over to the car. And together, Homolka and Bernardo also raped and drugged Carla Homolka's 15-year-old sister. She became sick while she was sedated and she died. And eventually the police matched Bernardo's DNA to the Scarborough rapist.
Starting point is 00:04:29 So this is the moment where prosecutors make the deal with Carla Homolka. What was so controversial about that to the public at the time? It was incredibly controversial because they called it the deal with the devil. I mean, it gained international media attention. Carla Homolka pled guilty to manslaughter, and in exchange, she was the main witness against Bernardo. And her testimony played this instrumental role in his dangerous offender designation and his life imprisonment.
Starting point is 00:04:58 But there was public outrage that Homolka only served 12 years for the rape and murder of two teenage girls. But by the time she testified, it could be argued that the prosecution didn't really need her. They had video with graphic detail of the crimes. A lawyer had discovered the incriminating tapes, but here's the catch. The prosecution didn't know about them till long after they had cut their deal with Carla. As evidence against Bernardo, they were as good as a smoking gun. But they also exposed something sinister about Carla Homolka.
Starting point is 00:05:31 In many cases, she appeared to be enjoying herself as she took her turn sexually assaulting the couple's young victims. So eventually they end up in court. And Homolka testified for 17 days in the Bernardo trial. That was in 1995. He was found guilty of all the charges against him. So two counts each of first-degree murder, kidnapping, forced confinement and aggravated sexual assault, and one count of committing an indignity to a human body. He was given life in prison. He was declared a dangerous
Starting point is 00:06:11 offender. Where was he then kept? Well, he spent most of his time in prison in the Kingston Penitentiary up until it shut down in 2013. And I spoke to Mary Campbell. She's a former Director General of Corrections and Criminal Justice at the Public Safety Canada. She retired in 2013 and she said she's visited a lot of penitentiaries and she saw Bernardo back when he was there. And she told me that he was in a barred cell and that staff had to put up a sheet of plexiglass over those bars because inmates were constantly throwing bodily fluids at him, including feces, and the staff there had to keep cleaning it up. And after that, almost two decades later, Bernardo was transferred to another high-security prison,
Starting point is 00:06:50 Millhaven Institution in Bath, Ontario. And he was called a no-contact offender, which meant he spent most of his day in his cell. He had one hour of solitary time in a common area cell, and his yard time was also spent alone. And then came this latest controversial move. On May 29th, Bernardo was quietly transferred to a medium security institution in the Laurentian Mountains in Quebec, and the Correctional Service of Canada told the victim's families for the first time just the morning it was happening, which their lawyers told me they
Starting point is 00:07:22 found very upsetting. And the department told me that they were trying to protect the staff that were escorting Bernardo because people knew where he was detained. But the lawyer representing the victim's families argues that it meant that they couldn't try and stop the transfer because it was frankly too late at that time. Well, meanwhile, even though that moment might have been very quiet since then, I feel like the news cycle has been really wrapped around this story. But let's look for a minute about what this means, the difference between maximum security and medium security. Can you explain that? Well, experts that I spoke to said that when it comes to the difference of an offender escaping, of the risk
Starting point is 00:08:05 to the public, that there's virtually no difference. He's still in a prison with a concrete wall and razor wire and staff watching every move. But the difference between the two is how much time an offender can move around outside of their cell. And Campbell said that Bernardo might not spend as much time in a cell alone. He won't be in his cell, you know, 23 hours a day. He will be out and possibly associating with other inmates, possibly in some group therapy sessions. But in terms of safety and, you know, comforts of life, believe me, lock yourself in your unrenovated bathroom for, you know, a year or two and you'll get a taste of what it's like. And Campbell said that the goal of the modern day system is not to punish people more. That's what used to happen back in the 1800s and Western democracies really moved away from that.
Starting point is 00:09:00 She said that the punishment is supposed to be the sentence itself. from that, she said that the punishment is supposed to be the sentence itself, and that this facility Bernardo's now at is a place that violent sex offenders are often transferred to because it has specialized programs for them. Is there any chance that he would get moved again, say sometime in the future, to minimum security or even get parole? Well, the victim's families don't want to see that happen, and they have been adamant that Bernardo should never be let out or transferred, even out of maximum security prison. And since Bernardo is considered a dangerous offender, experts say that it's unlikely that he ever will be released. But he has been eligible for parole for more than three years. And when he first attempted to get parole back in 2018, the board rejected it in just 30 minutes.
Starting point is 00:09:42 Both mothers had the same message that Bernardo needs to spend the rest of his life in jail. One of the women he sexually assaulted as a Scarborough rapist was there too. She says the attack left her a shell of her former self. Bernardo had nothing to say to any of them. There's never been an apology. When he was denied parole in 2021, Kristen French's mother, Donna, she testified and she said that time doesn't heal the pain and that the pain itself is a life sentence to her family. But under the current legislation, Bernardo is eligible for parole every two years and the families can go and give victim impact statements. Meanwhile, what you've described is that medium security is still very secure and it's extremely unlikely that he will ever get out if I'm understanding what you've described is that medium security is still very secure. And it's extremely unlikely that he will ever get out, if I'm understanding what you just described. So why then are people still upset about the decision to move him? Well, they're upset because he's one of the most high-profile serial killers and rapists in Canadian history.
Starting point is 00:10:38 He committed horrendous crimes, and people feel strongly about that. And many feel he should spend his entire life in maximum security prison and some people want to see him suffer. The Minister of Public Safety, Marco Mendicino himself, called this decision to transfer him, quote, shocking and incomprehensible. But we learned that Mendicino shouldn't have been shocked because his office says it knew about the transfer
Starting point is 00:11:01 three months in advance. And the Correctional Service of Canada said it followed the proper protocol in place for high-profile offenders like him. And they sent an email on March 2nd to Mendocino's office about that transfer and again in May. But Mendocino maintains that his staff didn't tell him for three months until the day after the transfer happened. Look, it is very clear that I should have been briefed at the time.
Starting point is 00:11:24 And that is something that I made abundantly clear to my staff. And as I said yesterday in the House of Commons, I have taken the corrective steps to ensure that that does not happen again. And that has created a political firestorm on Parliament Hill that grew when it came out that the Prime Minister's office also confirmed that it knew back in March about the possibility of Bernardo being transferred. And Justin Trudeau's office said it briefed the Prime Minister the day the transfer happened, which Mendocino says was before that he knew about it. And he is the minister who is responsible. So if that's true, and his staff did keep him in the dark for close to nearly 90 days, that raised a lot of questions about what else he might not know and also how his office is operating. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.
Starting point is 00:12:27 Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you.
Starting point is 00:12:49 Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So what you're describing is a situation where the families of the victims are saying
Starting point is 00:13:15 that they want the liberals to do whatever it takes to get Bernardo back into maximum security. Conservative leader Pierre Pallievre is also saying the same thing, but is that even possible? Well, the Conservatives say that the minister could issue something called an order in council, which essentially is a government order that a minister can make who's in charge, and it has to be signed by the governor general. Or the official opposition says Mendicino could issue something called a ministerial directive that would order all high profile and dangerous offenders like Bernardo that they must spend their entire sentence in a maximum security prison. Now Mendicino said that he's waiting for a review into Bernardo's transfer for it to be completed
Starting point is 00:13:56 in the next few weeks or so before deciding if any changes are needed but amid calls for his resignation Mendicino announced last week that he would order a different ministerial directive that would make it mandatory that he be notified directly of all high-profile offender transfers and that victims' families must also be notified in advance. Right now, victims' families only have to be told if an offender is transferred to a minimum security prison, not a medium one. We are going to support them. We're going to make sure that victims' rights are at the center of these decisions and that going forward, victims are notified in a timely manner before those decisions are taken. But there are also questions around why didn't Mendocino's office do this before the transfer happened in the first place?
Starting point is 00:14:39 Do we really see it as the role of politicians to decide where inmates serve their sentences? Isn't there a process that is intentionally separate from politics? Well, Mendicino and those who have come to as a defense from the Liberal Party argue that politicians shouldn't be meddling in decisions like this. And that they say it would be considered political interference and that it would be inappropriate to intervene in something like this. Well, your reporting showed that Minister Mendicino's staff knew about Bernardo's transfer months before, as you described. So why didn't they inform the minister? And how does this whole thing reflect on his leadership? You know, I've heard a lot of people ask me and I've heard people speculate on Parliament Hill, perhaps his staff are younger
Starting point is 00:15:22 and they didn't grow up at a time when Paul Bernardo was in the news. Perhaps they didn't know who he was. I've directly asked the office that. They have assured me they say that they all did know who Bernardo was. And the explanation that they gave me was that they were internally exploring options to figure out if the transfer decision could be changed or not. And they said that they learned that the minister did not have the power over offenders' transfers and couldn't change this decision. So they say there wasn't anything he could have done anyways and that they chose to brief him when they did, which they say was a day after it happened.
Starting point is 00:15:57 What's important is that these issues are identified and they're corrected. And so that is what I have done with my team to be sure that there is no further breakdown in information flow. It is important that I get those. on Wednesday. Then his office called that off. And then the next day, he had to testify at a committee on foreign interference at where he did not escape questions on this. And afterwards, he said he would take reporters' questions. He then gave a brief statement and tried to walk away and brush off reporters again. And I'll be happy to take more questions. How is it? How is it? And we have questions.
Starting point is 00:16:42 How is it? How is it? And we have questions. Come on. Why didn't your staff tell you what's the explanation? How is it? Which led to this really dramatic scene on the Hill as this large group of journalists, including myself, you know, followed him to try and get some answers because he wasn't offering any or taking any journalist questions.
Starting point is 00:16:59 Oh, it was quite, it was quite the scene. He spun on his heel and this, this group of journalists just follow him and surround him again and force the question forward. But if we come back to the ask here, this returning of a prisoner to maximum security, politicians being involved in where a prisoner spends their time. Have there been any other cases that provide an example of something like that in the past? Well, there was one conservative MP in the House last week who suggested that their party was successful in doing that in the past? Well, there was one Conservative MP in the House last week who suggested that their party was successful in doing that in the past. In 2013, the Conservative government took responsibility when we were faced with exactly the same issue. Paul Bernardo was to be transferred to medium security prison and
Starting point is 00:17:40 the Conservative government of the day said no. And they suggested that the public safety minister at that time, Stephen Blaney, that he stopped Bernardo from being transferred to a medium security prison. But news stories at that time, we went and dug them up, they suggest that when the Kingston Penitentiary was closing down, that Blaney asked if Bernardo would be transferred to a medium security prison and received assurances that there were no plans to do so. medium security prison and received assurances that there were no plans to do so. So that suggests that Bernardo didn't meet the requirements at the time, not that the public safety minister intervened in some way and blocked that move. So we have a number of things going on here. One of the big questions at the core of this is what the government actually knows and when they get involved. So this is not the first time that we have heard that someone from the liberal government is talking about a situation where bureaucrats knew something important, but the political leadership did not. example that I'm thinking of is Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Minister Mendocino saying that they only learned about allegations about the Chinese government targeting the family members
Starting point is 00:18:49 of a sitting MP from the newspaper. So they open the newspaper, that's the first time they're reading about it, that they didn't learn about it from CSIS. So are you seeing a pattern there? Yeah, and that example you provided is just one of those that we've seen in the recent months that have raised questions around the flow of information and how the government deals with it. And the opposition parties say that this is part of a larger problem. The NDP's leader Jagmeet Singh calls this Bernardo case yet another example of a cabinet minister saying that they failed to receive information on an important file. There's a serious problem of communication in this Liberal government.
Starting point is 00:19:25 They're not reading emails. They're not getting briefings properly. They're not actually acting on information that their ministry has. And the minister is claiming that he doesn't actually have the information. This is a serious problem. In April, International Development Minister Harjit Sajjan said that he missed emails that may have alerted him that a senator was distributing unauthorized travel documents. There was also this report that found Menachino's
Starting point is 00:19:50 predecessor, Bill Blair, didn't get a key memo from CSIS on foreign interference. And opposition parties argue that the Trudeau government does have an issue when it comes to how information flows. And the Bloc Quebecois leader, Yves-François Blanchet, said that the government has, quote, I believe that this government has a real, real bad habit of saying, I didn't know. They know so little. What the hell are they doing there? I want to look at the way that wider Canada is responding. And I'm wondering then how Conservatives might be tapping into this case to take aim at the Liberal government and their position on crime. Well, yeah, the Conservatives leader, Pierre Palliev, calls Bernardo, quote, one of the most evil monsters in Canadian history. And he put out a statement saying that Bernardo should rot in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life.
Starting point is 00:20:44 No killer of this type should ever be released from maximum security. In fact, he should leave in a coffin. Now, he's accused Mendicino and the prime minister of refusing to take any responsibility on this transfer. And he said that the government's plan on putting forward a bill to require all mass murderers and dangerous offenders must remain in maximum security prisons. We encourage all members of the public, every Canadian who cares about justice,
Starting point is 00:21:10 to call Trudeau's office and urge him to have his caucus unanimously adopt this common-sense conservative bill to keep mass murderers in maximum security penitentiaries. This is all part of the Conservatives' efforts to try and show that they're tough on crime versus the Liberals, who they argue are soft on crime. So you're seeing this latest chapter of that unfold. Well, this seems like a relatively procedural move, the moving of someone from maximum to medium security facility. Of course, there's a massive history here and the weight that Paul Bernardo holds in the Canadian mind. But are you seeing an opportunity or maybe even opportunism on the part of politicians, particularly the Conservative Party, to be able to score political points with the Canadian public? Well, the government's house
Starting point is 00:21:55 leader, Mark Holland, who calls Bernardo's crimes despicable and unspeakable, he accuses the Conservatives of unfairly politicizing Canada's correctional services and that it can't be interfered with politically. But the assertion that this is a decision of the government is false and it in fact is dangerous. The decision to transfer inmates is a decision of Correctional Services Canada. The independence of our correctional service has been a foundation of our country for a very long time. Having a mature conversation about how we respect that and respect victims is what I think Canadians expect. It feels like we are headed into a conversation about what our penitentiary or our penal system intends to do.
Starting point is 00:22:35 And that's an interesting piece that seems to be coming up. I'm wondering if you're hearing that as well. I think the conversation right now with the government and what they've said publicly is that there needs to be a more victim-centric approach. And certainly at the heart of this, you have victims' families who didn't see this coming. They found out the morning that it happened, and then they got a call after it happened. And they feel that that's not fair, that they should have known in advance, and that they should have some sort of say in that decision. And it's something that the Victims' Ombudsman for Crimes has told us that they have been calling for
Starting point is 00:23:08 for more than a decade now and that they want addressed. Ashley, this is a really difficult story to tell. I'm really grateful for your time today. Thanks for having me. And that's it for this edition of Front Burner. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Saroja Coelho. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.

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