Front Burner - The Pope vs The President

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Pope Leo has once again criticized the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran, saying “I don’t think the message of the gospel is meant to be abused in the way some people are doing, and I will continue to speak out loudly against war.” This is not the first time the pontiff has criticized Trump's behaviour and policies.Trump responded with a Truth Social post calling the Pope “weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy”. Trump later posted and deleted an image depicting himself as a Christ-like figure. Reporting also suggests Trump officials issued a veiled threat involving military force against the Vatican.Today, we look at the President and the Pope’s competing visions of the world. Our guest is Christopher Hale, a democratic political operative and author of the Substack ‘Letters from Leo’ which focuses on the intersection of Catholicism and U.S. politics.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

Hi, I'm David Suzuki. I'm turning 90 this year and you're invited to the party. Join me in Vancouver for a celebratory concert featuring music and storytelling in support of the David Suzuki Foundation's work, protecting nature and advancing climate solutions. This is a CBC podcast. Hi, everyone. I'm Jamie Possum. I do not look at my role as being politely. political politician. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue

to speak out about this against war, looking to promote peace. That was Pope Leo, articulating his position on the U.S. and Israel's war in Iran in front of a gallery of reporters. This is not the first time, the pontiff has criticized elements of Trump's behavior and policies, previously referring to his immigration program as inhuman and Trump's comments about the annihilation of Iranian civilization as truly unacceptable. During his Palm Sunday address over the weekend, Pope Leo said he rejects the prayers of those who wage war and that such leaders have, quote, hands full of blood. Cue, a truth social screed by Trump, where he called the Pope, weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy.

The Post was followed up by an image depicting a Jesus-like Trump with a divine light emanating from his hands as he heals a man in a hospital bed, with a series of American flags and what looks like a demonic figure floating in the background. The Post was condemned as offensive by many on the religious right, though notably silent was the American Vice President J.D. Vance an adult convert to Catholicism.

It was also reported last week that earlier this year in closed-door meetings between staff, Trump officials cast a veiled threat, which involved the use of military force against the Vatican. So today, we're going to talk about these two men. They're competing worldviews and get into some of the complicated history between the Catholic faith and America's political culture. Christopher Hale is a Democratic political operative and author of the substack letters from Leo, which focuses on the intersection of Catholicism and U.S. politics. Christopher hi, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.

It's an honor to be on. A busy week for you. I just went over a bunch of comments that the Pope made. There are more than that, sort of a bit more thinly veiled. The principle established after the Second World War, which prohibited nations from using force to violate the borders of others, has been completely undermined. Here's another. War is back in vogue and a zeal for war is spreading. What do you think has so angered Trump? Is it these critiques as a whole? Is it something else?

I think it's really the past few weeks. We really have seen two iterations of Pope Leo the 14th. You have to realize he was the youngest pope elected since 1978. He's now 70, but when he's elected he was under 70. It was the first time we had a pope under the age of 70 since 1990. And so he took a longer view of his papacy, his pontificate, than his predecessor, Francis, who was elected just shy of his 77th birthday. Francis thought he was going to die. He only had one lung. He thought he'd have a very short pontificate, similar to John the 23rd.

And John the 23rd was a great reformer and moved quickly. And so that's how Francis viewed himself. But during the first few months of Leo's pontificate, he was characterized in the media, rightly so, as the quiet hope. That's sort of changing, though, over the fall. On September 30th, he gave what's now become a ritual, a weekly press gaggle, similar to when the president of the United States stands outside and Marine wanted the helicopter going. He gave a weekly press gaggle, and he said that... Someone who says I'm against abortion, but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life. Someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with

the inhuman treatment of immigrants in the United States. I don't know if that's pro-life. That's a very common belief among progressives in the United States, but a lot of conservative Catholics took that and did not swallow it well. But he continually has picked up his pace of criticism.

And really, the turning point was the U.S. Israel strikes on Iran on February 28th. After that, the past few weeks have been, as you said, thinly veiled. The message of the church, my message, the message of the gospel, blessed of the peace speakers. Attacks on civilian infrastructure is against international law, but that it is also a sign of the hatred, the division, the destruction that the human being is capable

of, and we all want to work for peace. I'll mention, though, he's only said the name Donald Trump twice in his pontificate, noteworthy that those two times have been in the past week. I have no fear either the Trump administration are speaking out loudly about the message in the gospel. And that's what I believe. I am called to do what the church is called to do. We're not politicians.

We're not looking to make foreign policy as he calls it with the same perspective that he might understand it. So you can see the escalation continuing. But I think 60 minutes, interview, which probably we can talk about, was what set them over to top. And I can just set the scene for that. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about this. Of course. And so this Pentagon meeting that you refer to is a turning point. It happened on January 22nd. It was between the Pentagon and the Vatican's nuncio to the United States. That's Vatican speak for ambassador to the United States,

Cardinal Christoph Pierre. He comes to the Pentagon, which is strange in itself. And they have this talk, But where they're upset at the Pope, the Pentagon's upset at the Pope for comments, he had made it the state of the world's rest. We talked about the Zil for war. And they saw it as a critique. And they were correct of the president's then attack that has just occurred on Venezuela, his threats that were coming towards Greenland. But what we've learned even the past hours is Vatican officials, in retrospect, saw that as an attempt by the Trump White House, by a Trump Pentagon to get a preempted green light on the. the military operations that now are occurring in Iran. Obviously, they didn't get it.

They did not get it. And I think that what we can parse together here is that Leo at one point wanted to operate first and foremost through diplomatic channels. When the Vatican saw that that was foreclosed upon, he started using the greatest power that he has. And that's the pulpit. You have to realize we haven't had an English-speaking pope and natural English-speaking pope in modern times. And what I see is that when Pope Leo the 14th, when his statements are reported, they have a certain wave. But when he is in front of a camera wearing that white casic, which symbolized the papacy and the power of the institution, and he speaks clearly in English, that is one of his words reverberates. So this 60 Minutes interview, we have three Cardinals identified as close allies of Poplio, the 14, the top Cardinals really in the United States.

they criticize President Trump on three levels. They said, they criticize them on deportations and the ice raids. But when people act in this way, when they have to hide their identities to terrify people, when they can actually violate other guarantees of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, well, I think somebody's got to call that out, and I'm not the only one. They criticized them on Iran saying that Catholic teaching to thought that the war was unjust. God wants us to promote peace in the world because his desire is that we be one human family. What we're seeing as pastors is an enormous, profound level of human suffering. And that's what motivates us.

And they said his rhetoric was unacceptable. We're dehumanizing the victims of war by turning the suffering of people and the killing of children and our own soldiers into entertainment. You called it sickening. It is sickening. And they tied it all together and saying they were inspired by Pope Leo the 14th. He's the pastor of the world. He's not a pundit.

So the distinction is he's not going to pronounce on everything, but he's going to pronounce on what's important. And here's what we know. In the United States, over the weekend, we have the Masters. And, of course, the President loves golf. He was watching the Masters on CBS. And the winner of the Masters was Rory McElroy. is Scotty Sheffler who got second.

We think if Scottie Sheffler had won based on Trump's past, he would have called Scotty Sheffler, but he did not win. Roy McForre won. So President Trump is watching CVS and then it switches over to the famed TV show 60 Minutes.

And the first interviews of these three Cardinals. And that is what took President Trump over the top. He was on Air Force One watching this interview and he reacts. Now, President Trump has been asked

about Pope Leo several times by the press over the past six weeks, and each time he demurred until this moment. So this is the moment that took him over the top. And you're talking about that long kind of post, right? That screed, where he refers to the Pope as, quote, weak on crime and weak on nuclear weapons, which I just, sorry, it's so wild to hear. Like, of course the Pope is weak on nuclear weapons, I guess, where he took credit for Leo becoming Pope in the first. And first place saying if I wasn't in the White House, Leo wouldn't be in the Vatican, and that he also said that he was catering to the radical left, that the Pope is catering to the radical left. And just like, is that what you would have expected? I think the critiques

were out of left field. He had mentioned way back in May, and a lot of people don't, he tweets a lot on true social, that is. And way back in May, he also said that he should get credit for the election of Pope Leo the 14th and a one-off tweet about an ABC news program called This Week with George Stepanopoulos and someone has suggested that the Pope had correctly been elected not because of Donald Trump, but he said no, it was because of me.

But the other ones were just a hodgepodge. And the weekend crime is wild. I mean, I did check. There have been zero murders at the Batigan since Pope Leo the 14th took office. So he's actually very strong on crime. He's brought it down to zero. But it was an out-of-left-field critique.

And as you know, it was paired just minutes later with that second tweet. Yeah. Of depicting Donald Trump as Jesus Christ. Mr. President, did you post that picture of yourself depicted as Jesus Christ? Well, it wasn't a picture. It was me. I did post it, and I thought it was me as a doctor. The president insisting.

It's supposed to be me as a doctor, making people better. And I do make people better. I make people. Here's what I think is remarkable for your listeners, and I think it should take home with them. There were two tweets. One of those tweets very much offended, really one side of President Trump's religious right race,

the Catholic Church, the Catholics, Maga Catholics. The other tweet offended evangelical in the MAGA movement. There was even swift backlash online from some of the president's MAGA coalition, who wrote, God shall not be mocked, and there is no context where this is acceptable. Those are really the two foots of the MAGA religious right in this country. Only one of those tweets got deleted.

It was the one that upset the evangelicals. And that, I think, is revelatory. The evangelical movement has much more cachet in MAGA than the Catholic Church. And I believe that sentiment has been particularly strong since the pushback that's occurring over the Iran War. Maga Catholics are being marginalized in Donald Trump's community. Hi, I'm David Suzuki. I'm turning 90 this year, and you're invited to the party. Join me in Vancouver for a celebratory concert

featuring music and storytelling in support of the David Suzuki Foundation's work, protecting nature, and advancing climate solutions. The Powering Politics podcast is available six times a week, but you might not be. If you want to catch up on what happened this weekend politics join me, Laura Dangelow and some of Canada's most tuned-in political strategists to break down the week that was. Short on time, the weekly wrap has you covered with a new episode every Saturday.

Coming back to this meeting that has now been reported on between Vatican officials and members of the administration, I think it was at the Pentagon. And in the reporting, which I know you have confirmed, a Pentagon official alluded to the Avenue on Papacy, right, which was a period in the 14th century in which the French monarchy ordered attacks on the Vatican and forced seven successive popes to relocate from Rome to a town in Aveninian France. And you wrote, many in the Vatican saw the Pentagon's reference to an Avignon Papacy as a threat to use military force against the Holy See. This is really pretty incredible, like an unprecedented story. And just walk me through a little bit more like the implications of this. Sure. And I should note immediately that the Vatican officials and

Pentagon officials denied that that occurred, but separate outlets have confirmed the Avignon Papacy reference. I would say that this is a safe face reality to keep diplomatic channels open on the denials. But the Abingon papacy, what is unclear is if it was referenced as a joke, if it was a crude joke, or was it an implicit threat. And the military force that the people I spoke to that some, not all, I would say not even most, some in the Vatican felt, was because that President Trump had taken actions against peaceful NATO allies. I don't think there was any assertion that any thought that Donald Trump was going to bomb the Vatican. But the Abingham Papacy is a very good example of using military coercive force to keep the Pope under the administration's

thumb. And I think that you could argue that this action that the president took in Iran, he was hoping that Pope Leo the 14th would say quiet about it. And it's remarkable to me because it shows that there is an insightfulness in the administration, to their credit, to realize the moral force of having a pope, but not only any pope, a pope from our shores, they see that he can have an impact on the conversation, on the sentiments of the American people. So it's extraordinary. And of all the meniles that took place between the administration and the force of Vatican, I mean, President Trump completely stomped on it on Sunday night.

His actions confirm that this is a belligerent situation that's occurring. Yeah. You know, Pope Leo has publicly said he has no fear of the Trump administration. But it has been reported that he has canceled, Pope Leo has canceled plans to visit the U.S. as part of the country's 250th year anniversary later this year, opting instead to visit the Italian island of Lampedusa, which has been an episode. center of Europe's migration crisis. I wonder if you think these events are connected and why you think the Pope made this decision. The source of I've talked to you said there's definitely a connection. I will note it is usually, it's usually the protocol of the Vatican to never put

the Pope in a situation where he can be seen in the context of an election. And there are midterm elections obviously coming up in November. But there were plans. I mean, there were plans. I can confirmed that there was a written up plan for him to visit the United States in September to cities named and he was going to give a speech at the United Nations and that those plans were put on ice after this meeting. I should know it was not because Pope Leo the 14th feared for his safety. It's he does not want to be used as a political football. And there was conversations that I've been in this week and people were like, was there fear that President Trump and Vice President Vance would confront him similar to Zelensky.

And until Sunday, the answer was no. Really, the fear on the Vatican side was that he would try to weaponize the Pope for his political end. So make himself seen as allied with Pope Leo the 14th in a way that Pope Leo the 14th did not want to be instrumentalized. The sources told me that Republicans were hoping to get Pope Leo the 14th. Then come in 2027 and, you know, I'm putting money on it. I do not think we will see Pope Leo the United States while Donald Trump is president.

We'll see if I'm wrong on that. I think it would be very unlikely at this point. It's really remarkable. I mean, you have these two white men from the same country, one from New York, the other Chicago. Trump is 79. Pope Leo is 70. they're of the same generation essentially, and thus were produced by the same time period

and historical events. You might think they have shared cultural roots, though they've obviously taken very divergent paths in life. You have written, I believe God raised up a Pope from the Americas to confront mega authoritarianism just as he raised up John Paul to from behind the Iron Curtain. Can you tell me more about that? Sure. And so for folks who don't understand the reference, John Paul II was elected in 1978. He was the first non-Italian Pope in over 400 years. And we, this is a phrase maybe in retrospect, we find surprising. He was a Soviet pope. He was from the Soviet Union. He's from the USSR. He was from the Polish state, which was under the iron fist of the USSR. So he was behind an iron curtain, as I referenced. And really in the 1980s, his efforts, his famous

trip to Warsaw in 1979. His work to soften the regime and to help topple the Soviet regime was a defining part of his legacy. I think this is a religious claim. So Catholics believe that the Cardinals elect the Pope, but the Holy Spirit, which is part of the triune God, when we say the Holy Spirit, we are referring to God, that God helps pick the Pope. God influences the election. So I think God has raised up Pope Leo the 14th from behind the wall of maga authoritarianism to help defeat it. Now, I want to note something. He is the Pope of 1.4 billion Catholics. I don't think he has a particular obsession with the United States.

I don't think he wants to be seen as having a particular obsession in the United States. But I believe he sees authoritarianism as a global phenomenon. It would be like saying that communism only affected the U.S. S.R. It did not. And so this is my claim. And so I think what's interesting about the claim is communism was seen, what came from the left. But now we have our own form of totalitarianism from the right, I would argue. So that's what I see and believe. And that's what I'm really dedicating this letters from Leo's substact, this community on. I'm trying to raise up a bunch of Pope Leo fighters, if you will, here in the United States and across the globe. I want to ask you about Donald

Trump specifically and his personal relationship with Christianity and faith. It's kind of unclear, which stands in contrast to most U.S. presidents through history. Trump has, of course, been married three times. He's been involved in high-profile affairs and all kinds of other scandals out of step with the U.S. Christian constituency. He was also formally supportive of abortion, another one's disqualifying fact for much of the religious right. Though despite this, he enjoys this incredible support, as you talked about earlier from evangelical Christians in particular. You won't have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians.

I love you, Christians. I'm my Christian. I love you. Get out. You got to get out and vote. He's gone to great lengths to blend Christian iconography and white identity, a core tenet of Christian nationalism. One academic wrote, Invox,

that Trump's Christian constituency was a, quote, cross-faith coalition united not by theology, but by a shared sense of cultural siege around issues like sexuality, gender, and race, and that it was about reshaping the country along these lines. And when you think about Trump's relationship to faith and religion to theology, what comes to mind for you?

I think it's one of this strange situation where one of Donald Trump's superpowers, is he can get people from all different walks of life to get in the same room and say, I support Donald Trump. I mean, the Republican coalition expands from only fan porn stars to evangelical Christians. In some ways, as a Democrat, I'm jealous. I think we should try to emulate that.

On the Christian side in particular, Christians would argue, debout Christians would argue basically the King David argument, the idea being from the Old Testament that God raised up an imperfectness. man to save the Jewish people to become a source of salvation. I think the reality of it is, is that a lot of it is a nostalgia for an era that never really existed in the United States, and they find him to be a useful tool in that. One of the great things, one of the most funny things about this entire process of the 10 years of Donald Trump now, 11 years of Donald Trump, is that evangelical Christians will pretend that Donald Trump is religious.

and Donald Trump will pretend that he's religious to evangelical Christians, but everyone knows in their heart or hearts is not true. I'd like to be Pope. That would be my number one choice. An Old Testament guy or a New Testament guy? Probably equal. I think it's just an incredible. The whole Bible is an incredible.

I joke very much so. They always hold up the art of the deal. I say my second favorite book of all time. What about those in his orbit? You know, I'm thinking about the likes of Pete Hegseth, who I believe is a reformed evangelical Christian and J.D. Vance, who converged to Catholicism as an adult. They're both incredibly religious. Hegseth in particular often invokes his faith in the context of war and U.S. military force. It's some of the same kind of language you read about in the Crusades of the Middle Ages. Almighty God who trains our hands for war and our fingers for battle. You who stirred the nations from the north against Babylon of old,

making her land a desolation where none dwell. Behold now the wicked who rise against your justice and the peace of the righteous. Snap the rod of the oppressor, frustrate the wicked plans, and break the teeth of the ungodly. By the blast of your anger, let the evil perish. What do you make of their invocation of religion? I've seen you mention Hague-Sess reliance of the Old Testament, for example. I think it shows that there's a definite fissure in Christian theology in the United States about how we see war and how we see peace and what parts of the Bible are illuminating our faith. And it shows the tenuousness of the religious right in this country.

What we have seen over the past nine months, starting with President Trump's bombing in Iran last. last June, and also to his support of Israel in the midst of the Gaza bombings that hit the only Catholic parish in Gaza, injuring a very close friend of the late Pope Francis, who he called every night in the past months of his life, I think we are starting to see a rupture there that is unbridgeable. Really, Pete Hexsv's Christianity is altogether different in kind than the Maga Catholics that are in his movements. And so that is really coming to the forefront. Remember, President Trump was elected on being a peace president. Just as recently as last February, J.D. Bansk bragged to a group of Catholics at a prayer breakfast that where I think President Trump's policy is most in accord with

Christian social teaching and with the Catholic faith is that more than any president of my lifetime, President Trump has pursued a path of peace. So, So among Catholics, among conservative Catholics, among Maga Catholics, the president is losing the sentiments of his base because he's lifting up these leaders that have completely different world views. I want to very quickly hone in on head except for one moment. His pastor, his mentor, as he said, his words. Doug Wilson, he invited Doug Wilson to speak at the Pentagon on February 14th. A month later, Doug Wilson spoke in an interview and said that he wanted to ban. all public expressions of the Catholic faith in American life.

And that was an incredible statement. And a week later, we find out for the first time in over 40 years that the Pentagon did not have good Friday services specifically for Catholics. So there's been these moments again and again and again, starting with this meeting, this meeting in January and up to recent days, where the Pentagon seems to be stepping on the toes of Catholics that feel their movement. So I think that this is a very tenuous situation and it's getting worse and worse by the day. And then just hone in on J.D. Vance for me here. He is the highest-ranking Catholic member of the U.S. government. The third highest-ranking Catholic elected official in American history, right, behind JFK and Biden.

And just like, how do you think he's able to reconcile all this, the attacks on the Pope, what you were just talking about with Heg Seth as like a practicing member of the Catholic Church? I think for a lot of some of the left, we are very skeptical of J.D. Vance in several ways. I would say that it's hard for us that his conversion into Catholicism in 2019, as an adult, as you mentioned, coincided with his conversion into MAGA ideology. the fact that they overlap in such a profound weight, I think it's a bitter pill for so many of us to swallow. His ability to reconcile that is going to be the number one key

to whether or not he can win his party's nomination to be president of the United States. And I think that that dance, that uncomfortable tap dance that he's doing at times leads to crazy results. One being he's writing a book on converting to Roman Catholic. that comes out in June, but the cover of the book is a Methodist church. And so it's, he's trying to have play both sides. If he, if he leans too hard into his Catholic identity, it's going to upset the evangelicals. And so it's going to be a very hard, um, rich to, to reconcile for him to win nomination, but he's got to do it. He's got to do it. And the number

one question that's going to dominate J.D. Bans's, um, run in 2020, at least in the short term, is Israel. To be evangelical, the core identity of being evangelical in the United States is support for the state of Israel from a biblical perspective. Now, Catholics would call that insane. There is no biblical support for the modern state of Israel from a Catholic perspective. So J.D. Vance is going to somehow have to bridge these two groups where he will not win his party's nomination. Just to come back to kind of what you've been saying throughout this interview. that the Catholic Church is being marginalized by the Trump administration.

I know you've also just very plainly said that the church itself is under attack. And I just like, why do you think that is ultimately? Like, and how do you square your argument with the fact that the second in command of the U.S. government is a member of the Catholic Church? We see this time and again. I mean, we see that people exploit the faith and subjugate the faith. We saw it all through the fastest rise of Europe in the 20th century with Mussolini, with Franco. And I think it's very common that people use the faith as a tool to advance their causes and when it becomes an obstacle to move it away.

Last night on Fox News, J.D. Vance told the Vatican basically to stay out of U.S. politics, which I thought was a really remarkable statement. I certainly think that in some cases, it would be best for the Vatican to stick to matters of morality, to stick to matters of what's going on to the Catholic Church, and let the President of the United States stick to dictating American public policy. He definitely wants the Vatican to be involved in U.S. politics when it's talking about abortion or same-sex marriage or any of these other issues. But when the issue turns against what his base wants, it's, push it away. So I want to be, I want to distinguish Catholics in the United States have tremendous

religious freedom. We're very thankful for it. We go to Mass without fear. We think so much about the Christians in the Middle East, who are in this war-torn region who cannot celebrate the sacraments. But there's a distinction between Catholics and their their lives on the ground, and the church is the institution. When the president of the United States becomes the first leader, I would say since the Second World War, modern leader, global leader, to proactively, publicly attack the Pope, who in the Catholic worldview is not just the head of the church, but the vicar of Jesus Christ, which is Catholic speak for he acts in the name and ministers in the name of Jesus Christ. I say the church is under attack, and I think that Donald Trump used

the Catholic Church as a tool of the resistance that against them in the United States. and two, to be fair to Donald Trump, he's right. The Catholic Church is functionally the biggest resistance to Donald Trump, especially in parts of the United States, where MAGA dominates. The best organized resistance to Donald Trump in MAGA country is the Catholic Church. And we're seeing that time and again because these bishops do not answer to the political winds of their community. Their authority is derived from their appointment from the bishop of Rome. So they're not trying to keep everyone at bay local.

thing. I just like, to end this conversation, I wonder if we could zoom out a little bit here. It's not new that Catholics would be kind of an oppressed class in America for all kinds of reasons. I know for much of American history, there was this suspicion of dual loyalty. The Catholics face a belief that a Catholic president would be more loyal to the Vatican than the U.S. Constitution, for example, that they weren't real Americans during his campaign for president. J.F.K., who had become the first Catholic president, was questioned relentlessly about the prospect of dual loyalty and Vatican influence. And just when you look at the history of Catholicism in America, particularly through the lens of the U.S.'s political history, where does this current moment fit in that broader history? I think today, right now, this is the most contentious and sensitive moment in the history of the relationship between the Catholic Church in the United States. I think the last two months, everything that's occurred combined, made that clear. When John Paul II openly opposed the Iraq War in 2003, he didn't have any

foot soldiers with him because the vast majority of the American public, including the vast majority of American Catholics, supported that war. But this war, the Pope's prophetic statements, and the organized response from the president and his Pentagon, I think we are in the most sensitive and disturbing moment in the history of that relationship. And it will be very intriguing to see how this moves forward because Catholics across this country are calling on the president to apologize and he won't.

No, I don't because Pope Leo said things that are wrong. But there's going to have to be an off-ramp here that President Trump's. going to have to give. There's going to have to be an olive branch here that he's going to have to give to reform because this issue keeps hammering away at him. The losses that he'll see in the midterm will be historic. One parallel, the biggest shift we've ever seen in modern history of Catholics from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party was in 2006. And the issue was the Iraq War. And so 20 years later, we're doing the same thing. Christopher, this was

was great. Thank you. This was so interesting. Thank you for this. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. All right. That is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.