Front Burner - The Proud Boys: A brief history

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

In the wake of last week's attack on the U.S. Capitol, the Proud Boys — a group founded by Canadian Gavin McInnes — has been under intense pressure. The FBI is arresting some of its members. NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh has called for the them to be designated a terrorist group, and the federal government is considering it. Today, how the Proud Boys started, and where they ended up, with Jared Holt — a visiting researcher at the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab who studies domestic extremism

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. In the wake of last week's attack on the U.S. Capitol, the Proud Boys, a group founded by Canadian Gavin McInnes, has been under intense pressure.

NDP leader Jagmeet Singh has called for them to be designated a terrorist group. The federal government is considering that. And the FBI is arresting some of the group's members. Today, how the Proud Boys started and where they ended up. This is FrontBurner. My guest today is Jared Holt. He's a visiting researcher at the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab, where he studies domestic extremism. Jared, thank you so much for making the time to come into the podcast today. Oh, it's a pleasure. If only it was under better circumstances.

Absolutely. So I'd like to start at the beginning here, at the origins of this group. And briefly, who is the Proud Boys founder, Gavin McInnes? Gavin McInnes is a longtime Canadian media figure who has really prided himself on kind of sticking it really to the larger legacy media conglomerates that have existed both in Canada and the United States. And it's really that drive to put up a proverbial middle finger to the established order of things that motivates him and drives him forward. Right, right. And people might also remember him as one of the founders of Vice magazine, although he and Vice cut ties in 2008. And he was also a contributor to the Canadian far right video channel, Rebel Media, and he had his own show on another streaming platform. And when the group was founded in New York in 2016, what did he say at that point about what the group was all about?

Yeah, Gavin McInnes wrote a article for a far-right publication called Talkies Mag, in which he debuted the group in 2016. The way he described it was a group of young men who were, you know, it started out as a fan club for his show on Compound Media at the time, and they would get together, they'd drink, they'd get in fights and kind of poke fun at themselves. They would sing along songs from Aladdin,

discuss Pat Buchanan, and just gather together, get drunk, and engage in this far right material that, you know, essentially painted a portrait of a Western world in decline. Right. And can you tell me a little bit more about the beliefs that this group held at the time? So I know by the time that McInnes founds the group, he's already come under very hot water for really controversial statements that he's made. Most women are happier at home.

They are pretending that they like working. Racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamophobic statements at this point. primarily was driven forward by this idea that racial justice initiatives, you know, attempts to diversify representation in entertainment and news media and, you know, a whole host of other hot-button issues of the time were part of this, you know, kind of broader project to delegitimize white people in some way, or to make people with Western heritage feel guilty or lesser than, which is remnant of, you know, more extreme white genocide conspiracy theories, which believe that there's forces underway to essentially destroy the Western world and white people's majority population in it.

And in addition to that, I just want to pick up on something you mentioned before, the jokes. You know, I understand that the Proud Boys actually came from this song in Aladdin called Proud of Your Boy. Proud of your boy, I'll make you proud of your boy. Believe me, bad as I've been, ma, you're in for a pleasant surprise. And it does seem like, especially in those early stages, the Proud Boys place this big emphasis on irony, right? On making jokes. And for example, their membership rituals too. And can you remind me about those? Yeah, the membership rituals range from, you know, reciting a pledge in the first degree. The second degree is getting pummeled by other members of the group while naming breakfast cereals.

One, two, three, go. This is part of what it takes to become a member of a group that calls itself Proud Boys. Getting punched by a group of guys while naming breakfast cereals to join the self-professed Western chauvinist multiracial fraternal organization started in the U.S. last year. The third degree, I believe, is still getting a tattoo from the organization. And then the fourth degree being engaging in some sort of physical altercation while representing the group. I want to come back to that idea of fighting in a moment. But, you know, so McInnes forms this group in 2016. And can you tell me a little bit about how this group grows and spreads across the United

States and even in Canada? The group originally, you know, gets popular in New York City, and then once word of this group starts to spread, because Gavin McInnes is a media figure who was at the time reaching audiences all across the United States, by the end of the year, we saw chapters popping up in the Pacific Northwest, in California, and the group boasted what they claimed at the time to be around 1,000 members. So it came together fairly quickly, all united by his, you know, entertainment, politics, news, media show. Right. And I know that by 2017, we're also talking about many chapters in Canada as well. And to come back to this idea of fighting, at what point do you think that street fighting started to play a really prominent role in the group's identity?

You know, the first big thing that happened with the Proud Boys solidifying the fighting along with their image was in New York City. Gavin McInnes gave a speech at a university and showed up with about a dozen members of the Proud Boys who then clashed with anti-fascist demonstrators outside the speech. And from there on out, you know, from all the video and the photos that came out at the time, this group became associated with those kind of confrontations. And, you know, another confrontation that immediately comes to mind is at Berkeley in 2017. And can you tell me a little bit more about this one? Yeah, some members on the ground in Berkeley were engaged in what at the time was a very sort of standoffish situation between extreme right-wing political figures and people who didn't want those figures engaging in hate speech or otherwise in public spaces. or otherwise in public spaces.

Most notably out of the Berkeley era of the Proud Boys was an individual named Kyle Chapman, who became a viral sensation in extreme right online communities after he was photographed and filmed hitting anti-fascist and anti-racist protesters with a wooden stick they called him based stick man and gavin mckinnis invited him into the proud boys where he then formed a sort of paramilitary wing of the proud boys called the fraternal order of alt knights i was thrust into the movement due to my actions at the first battle of Berkeley. There were multiple instances of Trump supporters just being relentlessly attacked. I said, that's it.

Next time there's a rally, I'm going to show up and I'm going to protect my brothers and sisters. You know, so that's when I flew into action and started to defend myself and others. And that's when you hit a dude with a stick. Flagpole. And tell me a little bit more about this other faction of the Proud Boys. So the Proud Boys at the time were engaging in brawls. They'd get in drunken fights outside of bars and outside of events. But the

Fraternal Order of Alt Knights, in effect, was kind of the frontline shock troop of the Proud Boys. For the time that it existed, it, you know, those were the ones who were directly going out and seeking these confrontations and seeking to inflict maximum harm among the people they were targeting. Right. And, you know, during this time, can you talk to me a little bit about where Trump fits in here? Yeah, the Proud Boys were part of a, you know, broader sort of alt-right media phenomenon

that rose up alongside Trump. You know, there was a lot of coverage at the time on how this new coalition of digital savvy and extreme rhetoric deploying network of online figures and media figures and organizations were coming together around supporting President Donald Trump. And Gavin McInnes and his Proud Boys were a big part of that development. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, now we're heading into the summer of 2017. And Canadians might also remember around this time that the Proud Boys popped up in the news here.

remember around this time that the Proud Boys popped up in the news here. Five Canadian servicemen who identified as Proud Boys disrupted a group of Indigenous protesters who wanted the statue of the Nova Scotia Lieutenant Governor Edward Cornwallis to be removed because of his dark history towards Indigenous people. I want to talk to you about August 2017, So you don't have Canadian ID? You don't pay your taxes? You don't have a Medicare card? I want to talk to you about August 2017, because this is when something very significant happens to the Proud Boys, and that is the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. Our streets! Our streets! Our streets! And this is, of course, a very violent rally that brought together a huge number of neo-Nazis, other far-right hate groups.

A counter-protester was killed. And where Donald Trump infamously said there were good people on both sides. If you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. Gavin McInnes didn't attend that rally. He even told Proud Boy members not to go. But why did that event still have huge repercussions for the group? Well, one of the key organizers of that event, Jason Kessler, had been affiliated with the Proud Boys. So it wasn't just that a couple Proud Boys didn't listen to Gavin McInnes and attended anyway. Somebody who was associated with the group actually was one of the lead organizers of the whole thing.

And this really hit the group hard because Gavin and the Proud Boys had been trying to dance around and try to figure out how to shape their image and maintain that alt-right patina without being labeled white supremacist. And this really made things a lot more difficult for them. Right, because within six months, the Southern Poverty Law Center, the American Legal Advocacy Organization, labels them a hate group, something that they deny. Right. In the wake of Charlottesville, I know by this point there are schisms in the group.

And how do the Proud Boys start to change and evolve after they find themselves in this position post Charlottesville? Well, they have another identity crisis on their hands. the Proud Boys continue to try to find the thin line that they can walk where they, you know, can engage in this hateful rhetoric against, you know, LGBT people, against Muslims, against different minority groups, without being associated with the most extreme white supremacist groups. And that dance is kind of going back and forth. But another notable change that we start to see in 2018 is a more direct involvement in electoral politics from the Proud Boys. We start to see Republican politicians in the U.S. having photos coming out of their events where Proud Boys are present in their black and gold uniforms. And later that year, they even show up in Florida and in the

middle of a very contentious election recount situation and, you know, make their presence felt in a physical way. Right. And you mentioned sort of this closeness with party politics more. Before the Florida protests in the fall of 2018, something else significant happened, particularly for McInnes, right? And that was this big, violent brawl outside the Metropolitan Republican Club in New York where he was speaking. And what do we know about what happened there? So Gavin McInnes showed up there is one of the, you know, oldest and most prestigious bastions of Republican organizing in New York City.

And he gives a speech to a small crowd. And, you there the proud boys at that are attending exit they go outside gavin mckinnis uh you know was filmed waving a katana around his head um and the proud boys all riled up go confront anti-fascist protesters. Oh my God. Oh my God. No. Hey, stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! I McInnes goes on to eventually resign from his leading position of the group, citing the advice of his lawyers, thinking that if he stepped away from the group in some formal capacity, that it would make the sentencing a bit lighter on the members of his group that had been arrested. I'm officially disassociating myself from the Proud Boys. In all capacities, forever, I quit.

And meanwhile, at this point, he's been kicked off mainstream social media platforms, right? Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and the group has as well by the fall of 2018. Right. So, you know, by the time this happens, the Proud Boys have already faced massive public scrutiny. They've been deplatformed from many major social media companies. And Gavin as a leader is becoming less and less effective. He's less and less able to really maintain control of his group anymore. And I know at some point, the Proud Boys enter a new era of leadership, and Enrique Tarrio steps in. And who is Enrique Tarrio? Enrique Tarrio took over shortly after Gavin McInnes stepped away formally from the group. He was appointed then and remains the group's leader today. He is of mixed race.

He is the descendant of Cuban immigrants. And what Enrique was able to do was unite the group in a common cause and promote sort of a singular projection of the group's image. And he did that by drawing from his heritage as a descendant of Cuban immigrants to essentially turn the group into an anti-communist organization. anti-communist organization. Even today, much of the leading propaganda, advertisements, and message of the Proud Boys is explicitly anti-socialist, anti-communist, and they've reached great success with that message, which kind of echoes themes that have been playing out in broader pro-Trump circles. And can you take me through some examples of that, of how it's been playing out relatively recently in the last year or two? You know, in the last year or two, we've seen more Republican politicians having their photos taken with members of the group. We've seen the group attending political conferences, which was something they didn't do until recently,

mainstream political conferences. And where we saw them very frequently was at protests against coronavirus restrictions and also at counter protests against Black Lives Matter racial justice demonstrations that occurred in the U.S. earlier this year. We have to call it what it is. The Black Lives Matter is a Marxist violent organization, and so is Antifa. A judge has banned Proud Boys leader Henry Enrique Tarrio from Washington, D.C. This after Tarrio was arrested earlier this week. He faces weapons charges and destruction of property. Tarrio admitted to taking down and burning a Black Lives Matter flag at DC Church last

month, but he says he burnt the flag out of love and not of hate. And just to be clear here, like when the group says they're anti-communist, what are they talking about? What do they mean? So when they say anti-communist, what they really mean is they're anti anybody that they think is a communist, which can be anyone from Joe Biden to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to actual communist organizations. So to be anti-communist on its face may not sound too offensive to more mainstream Republicans, sound too offensive to more mainstream Republicans. But to really understand what that means, you have to understand that in the US, you know, in right wing politics, the umbrella has been opened as

far as what is considered communist and the Proud Boys have used that to their advantage. I don't think most places in the world, people gathering in the street and protesting, demanding equal treatment by police based on race would be considered a communist cause really. But for the Proud Boys, it is. So we've got this group with its roots in really deplorable ideas, sexism, Islamophobia, racism, as we've talked about. And, you know, over the years, it has morphed somewhat in that it has taken on this very sort of anti-communist approach and also aligned itself more closely with political institutions, as you've explained. And I think all of this brings us to September 2020, when Donald Trump says something in a presidential debate that has now become infamous. What do you want to call him? Give me a name. Give me a name. White supremacist

and white supremacist. Proud Boys stand back and stand by, but I'll tell you what. Proud Boys stand back and stand by. And Jared, as someone who's been researching this group for years, what did you think when you heard that? I thought, you know, this is the best thing that could have ever happened to the Proud Boys. The president not only mentioned their name, but also spoke of them in a way telling them to stand by. And, you know, in the days that followed, if we're to believe the Proud Boys, which I tend to believe them on this point, their membership applications just skyrocketed off the charts. But another thing that that moment really represented was that the proud boys efforts to reshape their image

post charlottesville into this pro-trump anti-communist group that's part of a larger maga movement solidified itself in a way that was undeniable and on the national stage for all to see. Tell me about their role in the stop the steal, quote unquote, movement that happened in the wake of the election after Donald Trump did not win the election, but claimed that he had won the election. Yeah, so the Proud Boys took that stand back and stand by message to heart throughout the election, you know, being this unabashed pro Trump force. And then after the election, once votes were counted and major news media organizations started calling Joe Biden the president-elect, then the Proud Boys started to glom on to what would become the national Stop the Steal protest movement.

And then, you know, we all know what happened. Last week, it was the manifestation of that at the U.S. Capitol. Angry supporters of the president advancing on the Capitol. Officers tried to push back, firing pepper bullets into the agitated crowd. Trump supporters only grew bolder, and police lost control. And since then, the leader of the Proud Boys Hawaii chapter has been arrested for entering the U.S. Capitol building. The leader of the Proud Boys Hawaii chapter has been arrested for entering the U.S. Capitol building. The FBI has written in affidavits that self-identified members of the Proud Boys descended on Washington to protest the election certification.

The FBI announced earlier this week that police had actually arrested Enrique Tarrio before last week's insurrection. Before, actually. They said that they had information that he was planning to incite violence although he he denies it he say he says that he's being scapegoated by the police and condemned the violence um in the u.s of course is part of a much broader crackdown on all sorts of people who who allegedly took part in this insurrection and of course one of the reasons you and i are having this discussion is because the Canadian government is considering designating the Proud Boys a terrorist organization. They're spurred by their involvement in last week's siege. And Jared, where does this all leave the Proud Boys today? You know, just like after Unite the Right in Charlottesville, and just like after that fight outside the Metropolitan Republican Club, yet again have another identity crisis on their hands. This ragtag group of street brawlers with abhorrent beliefs now faces itself with an identity crisis. now faces itself with an identity crisis. Do they maintain a boots-on-the-ground present, engaging in brawls,

or do they try to lay low for a little bit, especially now that the federal government and the U.S. national security apparatus is paying very close attention to them? So they're stuck in the middle between their image and their consequences. Okay. And how do you think that this will probably play out in the weeks and months to follow? It really remains to be seen. I've been sort of surprised at many turns in the Proud Boys development, but the group is large enough at this point that I think it will inevitably carry forward to some degree and with some great deal of membership. But what those individuals do, particularly as Joe Biden takes office, kind of remains to be seen. I don't know that they

really have come up with a good plan yet. Okay. And just for our listeners here in Canada, too, our colleague Stuart Bell of Global News is reporting that the Manitoba chapter of the Proud Boys is disbanding, but other chapters he reached out to either did not respond or sent him vulgarities in response to his request. So lots of questions about the future of the Proud Boys organization on this side of the border as well. Jared Holt, thank you so much for this conversation. Really appreciative. And I hope that you'll come back as the story develops. Absolutely. It's a pleasure. I know way too much about these groups, so it's always great to have an outlet to spill it out.

All right, that is all for this week. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcast. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, and Allie Janes. Our sound design was by Derek Vanderwyk and Matt Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Boombox Sound. And the executive producer of Front Burner is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.