Front Burner - The 'radical pragmatist' behind Canada's new climate plan

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Long before federal Environment Minister Steven Guilbeault was leading the file in Canada's fight against the climate crisis, he was an activist — some might even say a radical one, most famous for scaling the CN tower in 2001 to bring attention to climate change. Now, he's the architect of the Liberals' latest plan to dramatically curb greenhouse gas emissions. It's Guilbeault's first big move in his new role, and it's getting a lot of attention — by those who think it goes too far, and those who think it doesn't go far enough. Today on Front Burner, we're talking to environmental writer Arno Kopecky about Guilbeault, the move from activist to politician and how his new climate plan measures up to expectations.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's 2022, and there's no doubt delivering climate action is part of creating jobs and making life more affordable for everyone. Now we're laying out a clear emissions reductions plan that involves all the heavy polluting sectors of the economy and the oil and gas. Early last week, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced the next phase of Canada's fight against the climate crisis. Flanked by his top architect on the file,

Environment Minister Stephen Gilbault. Good morning everyone. Bonjour à toutes et à tous. Thank you for joining us all. As the prime minister outlined, we've taken a big step forward today towards a 2030 emissions reduction target. But long before he was a politician, taking questions at the podium alongside the prime minister, Gilboa was an environmental activist. Some even say a radical one, who 20 years ago risked his own life by scaling the CN Tower just to make a point. Greenpeace is climbing the world's tallest building today to tell the world not to be fooled by the liberal government. From the beginning, Trudeau has said climate change is one of his government's biggest priorities. Let's start with the fact that climate change is real and it is a challenge.

There is no vaccine against a polluted planet. A re-elected Liberal government will plant two billion trees over the next decade. But for decades, Canada has missed the mark. So to climate activists, Guilbeault's appointment as environment minister last fall seemed like a positive step. Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, on the other hand, was wary. I think given Mr. Gilbeau's background, it's important for him to send a signal that he doesn't see the government of Canada as a special interest group to impose a radical agenda. Today on FrontBurner, we're talking to environmental writer Arno Kopetsky about Stephen Gilbo, the move from activist to politician,

and how his new climate plan measures up to expectations. communications. Hey, Arno, thank you very much for coming on to the podcast. It is a pleasure to have you. Hi, Jamie. It is great to be here. So before we dive into this, I actually want to start with the latest climate plan. This is Canada's 10th climate plan since 1990. There's been a lot of them, although it is considered the most ambitious, hey, and according to Trudeau, quote, achievable. So I'm curious to know what you think sets this plan apart from all the rest of them. And can you give me like a brief big picture overview? Sure. Yeah, it is hard to keep track of even for climate journalists. So the thing, so this is the emissions reduction plan, which is basically a roadmap that for the first time goes sector by

sector through the Canadian economy and says, okay, agriculture, we're going to reduce this many emissions. Housing and buildings, we're going to reduce this many emissions all by 2030. And there's a real push for cleaning the electrical grid and expanding the electrical grid and introducing electrical cars at hyperspeed now. So they're going to plug in 50,000 charging stations across the country by 2030. They're mandating that half of all personal vehicles, cars and light trucks sold in Canada are electric by 2030. They're mandating that half of all personal vehicles, cars and light trucks are sold in Canada are electric by 2030. And that rises to 100% of them by 2035. Those are the big things there. And the other big thing is they're saying, okay, oil and gas sector, you have to reduce your emissions by 42% from current levels by 2030. We put down a clear track for where the sector needs to go.

Emission cuts a little over 30 percent compared to 2005, a little over 40 percent emission cuts compared to where we are today. So depending how you look at it, that is either, you know, insane, as Alberta's environment minister called it, or it's sort of cowardly, because it's actually not saying that Alberta has to reduce production, they can produce as much oil and gas as they want, as long as they reduce their emissions. You know, I think if you step back, you see this plan, not going directly against the oil and gas industry saying you can still produce as much as you want, but you have to reduce emissions. And they're really focusing, in my view, sort of on the demand side of the equation rather than supply. And it's almost like they're sneakily trying to undercut the whole business

model for oil and gas is one way to look at it. Like they want me to use less oil and gas. They want me to drive or us to drive electric cars. Exactly. Exactly. They want you and me to drive electric cars and they're going to make it easier and cheaper for us to do that. Are there consequences for the industries who failed to meet these emission reduction targets that they're supposed to meet? So that is the golden question and it's a much shorter answer. No. But I should say not yet. That is the next step is they're going to introduce these regulations. They are in talks with all of these industries, but especially oil and gas, to figure out

what are these regulations going to look like? What kind of teeth are these targets going to have? What will be the punishment for you if you fail to meet the target that the government has said you have to? But at this stage, we don't know what that looks like. And so that's really the zillion dollar question. Now let's talk about the guy at the forefront of this climate plan, Canada's Environment and Climate Minister, Stephen Gilbo. I, Stephen Gilbo, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will truly and faithfully, to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trust reposed in me as Minister of Environment and Climate Change.

What is his background? Stephen Guilbeault is really, if you were an environmentalist and you were trying to picture who you would want to be the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, you would be hard pressed to come up with somebody more ideal, at least on paper, than Stephen Guilbeault. He was at the very first UN Conference on Climate Change

in Berlin, the conference of the parties in 1995. And he was there on behalf of the Quebec Coalition on Climate Change, which he co-founded. Soon after that, he joined Greenpeace Canada and he ran their national climate campaigns. And then he became the Quebec bureau chief for Greenpeace. His most famous moment, the one that everybody is probably who knows about Stephen Gilboa has heard of, is that in 2001, he scaled the CN Tower in this orange jumpsuit with one other guy. And they unfurled this enormous banner that said Canada Bush climate killers. This was one week before the UN Conference on Climate Change. And so Stephen Gilboa got arrested for doing that. And he

was wearing this orange jumpsuit. And he had, you know, he's got this bushy wild beard. And he really does look like the very picture of an eco-terrorist. And then since then, you know, he left Greenpeace and became the director of Équiterre, which is a well-known environmental NGO in Quebec. Prime Minister, large pipeline projects have failed to gain social license from all across the continent, from Lincoln, Nebraska, to Kitimat, BC, to Montreal, Quebec. Communities don't want them. It makes no sense from an ethical and a moral perspective to produce and ship more of a substance that is causing a problem that disrupts the future of our children and grandchildren.

He had co-founded that as well, and now he ran that for 10 years. And he's also, you know, he was an advisor to three, a climate advisor to three successive provincial governments in Quebec, including Jean Charest. And he's just a really well-known figure in Quebec. He was also a columnist and commentator for a number of news outlets. And he's this rare guy who can walk pretty easily in activist circles, NGO circles, media, and government circles. And there are very few people like Stephen Gilbo in Canada. Are you going to be that same activist now that you're the environment minister? I'm very proud of what I did as an environmental activist. And I think it's important in our society,

and we've seen it on all sorts of social and environmental agenda, for civil society to be keeping governments feet to the fire. And I think that's exactly what activism is doing. I know you've interviewed him. You did a profile of him in 2019, which is really interesting. If people are looking to read it, it's on the Narwhal. I remember at the time there were a lot of expectations swirling around him. And what were your impressions of him then? By 2019, the shine has definitely worn off the Liberals and Trudeau. So environmentalists are very angry at the Liberals for promoting the Trans Mountain Pipeline above all. They also promoted Keystone Pipeline.

And they really seem to be trying to have it both ways, you know, saying all the right things about climate change, but doing a lot of naughty things. This was also right after Jody Wilson-Raybould went through everything she went through. And, you know, I think Stephen Gilbeau was sort of to environmental circles what Jody Wilson-Raybould was to First Nations circles. And so, you know, the question is, are you walking into this big trap? Are you selling out? And so we talked about that very frankly and bluntly. And he struck me as, you know, this really down to earth, sincere guy who was wide awake to the contradictions that that he was that he was walking into you know the first thing i asked him was what would you what would your 2001 version

of yourself who scaled that cn tower say to this 2019 version of yourself who's joining this liberal party and and he said you know well he described himself as a radical pragmatist. And he said, there's a time to sometimes you have to scale the CN Tower to get people's attention. And sometimes you have to sit down at a table with people you disagree with and try to push the needle. And he said, you know, and I think my 2001 version would understand what I'm doing today. I think, he said. understand what I'm doing today, I think, he said. I've used and I'm using my environment, my activism background every day as a cabinet minister to ensure that we do more in carbon pricing. As you may recall, I think one of the things I appreciated about him is that he didn't try to pretend those contradictions don't exist. He didn't just gloss over everything. You could

see he was wrestling with some of this stuff. I talked to him also about the Trans Mountain Pipeline. And I said, you know, what's going to happen if you join, if you are elected and you're part of this government and soon enough, there's going to be these huge protests against this pipeline and now you have to defend it. And he said, you know, I've been thinking about that every day since I made this decision. What I've said on TMX was that I wasn't there to rewrite history. The pipeline was bought before I came into politics. What I'm doing now with my cabinet colleagues, with the rest of my government, and frankly, most of the political parties present at the House of Commons, is to find ways where we can accelerate the fight against climate change.

And we've made some pretty significant commitments during the last campaign. And you could tell it really troubled him. But also he felt that the best way for him to pursue his goal of, you know, advancing climate policy in Canada was to join this party. And you could say that was a cynical bid for power, or you could say it was a very astute move because three years later, he is the Minister of Environment and Climate Change writing the climate plan for this country. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem.

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I get that he says that his 2001 version would understand what he was doing now. But I wonder, like, the people that he was hanging out, who scaled the CN Tower with him in 2001, and the environmentalists and activists that he's been working with, like, how do they reconcile the position that he's in now? and activists that he's been working with, like how do they reconcile the position that he's in now? That basically by even joining the Liberals, he had to compromise his values. You know, my sense, I think it is somewhat early days still. He hasn't been environment minister for that long. And this plan that we're talking about today,

the emissions reduction plan is his first big move. You know, he was well-respected in the environmental community. He knows all the people. And I think people are not super naive to the fact that, you know, in politics, you do have to make certain compromises. But depending where you go, you know, of course, some people are more cynical than others. I really think that the jury is still out and we'll see how hard he can push. So then what does this plan as his first big move as environment minister signal to you about which path he might be taking? I guess, does the plan measure up to some of the expectations that environmental leaders in this country have for this guy? I mean, if Canada reduces its emissions 40% below 2005 levels by 2030, which is in the next eight

years, that will be an incredible accomplishment. And that's what the plan lays out. So, you know, whatever you think about everything else, if that can happen, I think that's a pretty good success. However, I think there is a sort of a universal or a near universal disappointment that he's allowing production to continue in the oil sands. In my view, telling the oil sands, yeah, you can produce as much as you want as long as you basically almost cut your emissions in half in the next eight years is sort of a sneaky way of attacking production. We're going to reach that 40% cut in Canada's emissions by asking all different sectors, including oil and gas, to be incredibly ambitious and concrete in their ability to do that. This is the plan that's going to get...

Part of me wishes that he would just, that he and the Liberals would say, no, Alberta, you have quadrupled the amount of oil you've produced in the last two decades. It is time for that to stop. We're going to cap production and we're going to start rolling it down. But he's not saying that. And so how best to wage this war is a really interesting question because I think it is, I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but it is kind of a war against oil and oil production in this age of climate change that we're in where these catastrophes are rolling in hard and fast, one year after another and harder every year. So talk to me a little bit more then about how Alberta has responded to this.

Jason Kenney, the Premier of Alberta, and those in the oil sands, I know, were extremely wary of Gilborough. But how have they reacted to the measures in this plan? Well, so, yeah, they've just said, well, this is insane. I think the proposed plan is a bad joke. It looks like it was made up on the back of a cocktail napkin by this former Greenpeace radical, Stephen Kibbo, with zero reality or consultation with the provinces or the industry. The oil industry itself is a little bit more muted

because they have been saying, we can just reduce our emissions and keep growing like that. That's fine. You know, they sort of are acknowledging climate change. You can't just outright deny it anymore, even though, you know, certainly Jason Kenney comes very close to that. So what's the short answer to that? Similar to the carbon tax, you know, they're going to fight everything that they can every step of the way. Similar to the carbon tax, you know, they're going to fight everything that they can every step of the way. They'll take it all up to the Supreme Court. Jason Kenney is on pretty precarious political footing right now. There's an election not too far away in Alberta.

If I was one of the, you know, if I was Stephen Gilboa and Justin Trudeau, I would certainly be hoping that Rachel Notley comes back into power and will be a little bit more reasonable to work with. But Rachel Notley herself also called this plan a fantasy, which is telling. We're asking for a major, major change in a very short time. And I just don't think that it is possible to do it entirely without support from Ottawa. There's this, you know, Alberta really is, I hate to say it, but really holding Canada hostage here because oil sands production is largely under provincial jurisdiction. If they want to build a pipeline outside of Alberta, then the federal government has the power to stop that. But of course, the federal government is promoting these pipelines, or at least some of them.

But of course, the federal government is promoting these pipelines, or at least some of them. So it's this really weird dance, and we're watching it all unfold in real time. How do you get a provincial government that absolutely refuses to constrain the growth in its oil production to do just that? Why would someone like Rachel Notley, leader of the NDP in Alberta, say that this plan is a fantasy? Like, what about it does she think is fantastical? Well, emissions have never gone down in Alberta, basically in the history of the oil sands. I think the year of the pandemic, we're about to find out what happened. So I think they might have gone down slightly in 2020. The numbers are about to come out.

But that's really more to do with the pandemic than any policy. So to say that this industry that has just been exponentially growing for its entire existence suddenly has to not only screech its emissions to a halt, but also cut them almost in half in the next eight years, that is quite a turnaround. Obviously, carbon capture plays a heavy role in that, and we can talk about that in a second. But it clearly represents a monumental challenge. I think it sort of strikes me as the global conundrum, this thing we're all facing everywhere in the world, of strikes me as the global conundrum, this thing we're all facing everywhere in the world of how do we extricate our economies and our cultures from this industry that has provided so much prosperity. And now we've waited so long to do it that we have to do it really quickly. And it's

going to be hard to envision a way to do that that is not painful. I'm glad that you brought up carbon capture. A big part of the plan here, this latest plan, is an investment in carbon capture. This means grabbing carbon dioxide molecules, finding ways to use them once they're captured, and storing them safely. Right? And can you tell me what the reaction around that piece of the plan is here? And I guess, I guess does it sort of dovetail with like the overall impression that we've been talking about here that this is a plan that doesn't that doesn't necessarily go straight at the bullseye? Yeah, it doesn't go for the jugular. I think this is a classic example of the kind of thing that disappoints environmentalists with the liberal government in general, and now with Stephen Gilbo. Carbon capture, you know, there is a case to be made

for it. I think we're going to have to live with it, whether we like it or not. The main problem with carbon capture is that it is every single time used as an excuse by the oil and gas industry to keep producing more oil and gas. And that is a very frustrating thing because, yes, it would be great and we do need to prevent as much carbon from going into the air as possible. And technology is now at a place where we can do that. But that should not be in any way slowing down the phase out of oil and gas. And that's the problem. And not only is carbon capture a big part of this plan and saying, okay, this is how we're going to help Alberta reduce their emissions. We're about to find out

in the budget that's coming out later this week, how much of our tax dollars are going to go towards helping the oil and gas industry pay for this, pay for carbon capture. So it's pretty disappointing. I think one of the things for people to keep in mind is carbon capture. In a best case scenario, sure, we can capture a lot of the carbon at the point of production, you know, at the pumps and the refineries where we're pulling oil out of the ground or bitumen out of the ground and then turning it into gasoline. Those are energy intensive processes that do emit quite a lot of emissions. But it's really only 10 or 20 percent of the emissions that come from oil and gas. Most of the emissions of oil and gas are released when we drive or, you know, fly planes.

And carbon capture does nothing about that. Are there any other shortcomings in this plan that you think are worth talking about that we haven't necessarily touched on yet? that we haven't necessarily touched on yet? If you ask me, I think there is a sense of urgency that I wish the Liberals could communicate more articulately without being sanctimonious, which is a hard line to walk. But I think that the general air that exudes from most Liber, including Trudeau, to some extent, Guilbeault, when they talk about climate change is this idea that, OK, listen, it's going to be fine. We got this. Nothing much needs to change. Don't worry. The worried environmentalist in me wants a bit more strenuous urgency to sort of almost slap Canadians in the face and say, look,

things are not going to be well. There is disruption coming one way or another. Let's grow up and face this reality and do some radical things. You know, let's get on a wartime level of deploying wind farms and solar panels and massively boosting transit and building train rails across the country and really overhauling our entire country and our economy. If you look at the urgency that Europe is now experiencing and the rate at which they are rapidly reconsidering their energy policies in the face of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it would be really nice to see that level of urgency around climate change in Canada. So and I don't feel that coming with this plan

and the tone in which it is being discussed. That being said, I also have a lot of sympathy for the line that politicians have to walk. You know, we just saw the trucker convoys paralyze Ottawa and take over the news cycle for three weeks. It's not hard. You know, those trucker convoys, the first iteration of them in 2019 was as a protest to the carbon tax. So that's a consideration that democratically elected leaders have to keep in mind that I think environmental activists can be a little bit glib about. And of course, I wish that our government would try anyways. And I think that's the challenge of the day to be articulate about that and to persuade. But I guess I see my job as helping your wonderful listeners appreciate the urgency

of this moment. Okay. Arno, thank you so much for this. This was great talking to you. Jamie, it's such a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. All right, that's all for today. But just to note, now that we've talked about Stephen Gilboa and his new climate plan, there's also going to be reportedly some more announcements around climate coming out in the budget on Thursday night. We have put a request in to have Minister Gilbo on the show, and hopefully we get to talk to him soon. So stay tuned for that. That's all for today, though. I'm Jamie Poisson.

Thanks for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. Talk to you tomorrow.