Front Burner - The real story behind ‘Women Talking’

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Canadian director Sarah Polley’s new Oscar-nominated film Women Talking is set in an isolated religious community where a group of women and girls must decide how to respond to sexual assault in their community. Over two days, they debate: should they do nothing, should they fight, or should they flee? Polley has been clear that her story is fiction. It is based on a novel by Miriam Toews, a Canadian author who grew up in a Mennonite family. But before the book and the film, there was a real community where women woke up with foggy memories and physical pain. That community is the Manitoba Mennonite Colony in Bolivia. Journalist Jean Friedman-Rudovsky traveled there over a decade ago to speak to women about what had happened to them. She says what they told her still haunts her to this day. *A warning: today’s episode contains graphic details involving sexual assault.*

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. We know that we've been attacked by men, not by ghosts or Satan, as we were led to believe for so long. We know that we've not imagined these attacks. Today, we're talking about the real story behind the Oscar-nominated film, Women Talking.

It's a story with really upsetting details about sexual assault. And we're going to be talking about the plot of the movie as well. We know that we are bruised and infected and pregnant and terrified and insane. And some of us are dead. We know that we must protect our children regardless of who is guilty. The film tells the story of a group of women and girls who spend two days trying to decide whether they should stay, fight, or flee their community to save themselves from ongoing rapes. It's directed by Canadian Sarah Pauley.

She adapted it from a book by author Miriam Taves, who grew up in Manitoba in a Mennonite family. The film is getting a lot of attention. A new film is getting Oscar buzz for its standout acting performances. Here are the 10 nominees for Best Motion Picture of the Year. Women Talking. The film is so beautiful. There's so much to love.

It gives us so much to ponder. 9.8 for me on my top 10 list this year. Go see Women Talking. I loved it. But before the book and before the film, there was a real story about a Mennonite colony where women were under attack. The real story that inspired the film

actually happened in South America, in Bolivia. And whereas Sarah Polly's film unfolds over a couple of days, the real story went on for years, beginning in 2005. Today, we're bringing you that story with Jean Friedman Rodofsky, a freelance journalist who reported on it back then. She's now the co-director of Resolve Philly, a local journalism organization. Hi, Jean. Thanks so much for joining us. Hi. Thanks for having me on. So in 2005, women in a Mennonite colony in Bolivia called Manitoba started to wake up with mysterious injuries and foggy memories? And what was happening?

So what we now know was that some men in the colony had adapted a spray from a chemical that was used to anesthetize cows. And they were spraying this chemical into bedroom windows at night, and then breaking into homes, climbing through windows, or sometimes going through front doors, because rarely people locked their doors in this colony, and raping women and girls in their beds during the night. Oftentimes, they were lying next to their husbands, who were also passed out from the spray. And so in the morning, the women would wake up with bloodstained sheets, with bruises on their legs or their limbs, with headaches, foggy memories.

Sometimes they would have this sort of image of something happening during the night, but it felt like it was a nightmare and truly not knowing what was happening to them and their bodies. Horrific details. And before we go too far here, I wonder if you could explain to me how Manitoba Colony came to be in Bolivia. This colony has ties to Canada as well, right? Yes. I mean, so, you know,

as Mennonites were forced to flee from persecution in Russia and in various parts of Europe and made their way to Canada. There were some in the religion who felt like the new homes that were being set up in Canada were too easily susceptible to the outside, to the sins of the outside world, quote unquote, is what the Mennonite predecessors would say. And so they fled south and they fled south to countries where governments essentially would allow them to set up these colonies with very little outside interference from particularly the government, right? Because in Canada, they started to say, okay, children need to go to school for a certain amount of time, and girls need to be educated just as boys are educated. And in countries such as Mexico and Paraguay and Bolivia, that was not the case. The governments took a very, very hands-off approach.

And so you have in Bolivia, a few years ago, there were about 60,000 old colony Mennonites who essentially live in these communities where the Bolivian government has almost no authority and really doesn't care what they do inside those communities. Yeah, I understand. Like the last time you were there was about a decade ago, right? And how would you describe life there? Yeah, it was basically exactly a decade ago. Life there, you know, what's interesting is sort of seen from the outside. It seems, you know, particularly from a standpoint of, you know, living in a busy and hustling city, it seems rather idyllic. It is, you know, mainly off the grid, off the electrical grid.

Some folks may have cell phones, but technically they're not permitted within the colony. And at least 10 years ago in Manitoba colony in Bolivia, there was very little cell phone reception. Food is mainly either raised there within the colony or purchased in Santa Cruz, which is the closest city several hours away from Manitoba Colony. And life seems pretty, pretty simple, pretty calm. And again, on the on the outset, pretty peaceful. Tell me more about their general beliefs around gender and sex. So around gender, it is a very patriarchal society. So men are the ones who hold positions of power.

Girls are not supposed to go to school past the age of 12. In terms of sex, there is basically, from what I could tell and from what folks told me, there's really no sex education. Most women and girls don't even necessarily know names for the parts of their body. There is not a conversation around menstruation. There are not open conversations around sex. And I should say also the language that is spoken within these old colonies is what's called low German. And so it is a dialect of German. My husband is actually German and he came with me to the colony when I first started reporting. He could understand a bit of what folks are saying, but not fully. And so when you were in this colony, at first, I know you were only allowed to speak to the men, and you actually spent some time, quite a bit of time there, right? Like a couple of weeks, right?

Yeah, a little bit less than two weeks. And eventually you got to speak to the women. And what did they tell you about what they had experienced? I did. Yes. You know, and that was sort of the point of going there and living there was that I knew that if I just, you know, came in and out, I probably wouldn't be able to develop the trust that I needed for them to be able to feel comfortable speaking openly with me. The other thing is that I was able to speak with women not through a male translator, which was really helpful. I met a young woman who had grown up with a Bolivian housekeeper in her house, a Spanish speaking woman. And so she had learned Spanish from this woman. So she and I were able to communicate directly and she actually served as the translator for when I spoke with other women in the colony. And she actually served as the translator for when I spoke with other women in the colony.

So when she and I would make visits to women's houses, because that is mainly how we had a chance to speak with them, I did ask what happened to the women, what they could remember. Some women either didn't really want to talk about the details or again, couldn't remember much. The women who were comfortable sharing, I think the story that sticks maybe most in my mind, she's in my piece, I call her Sarah. There's pseudonyms that I use for several of the women. She would wake up to find rope still attached to her wrists because the rapist had tied her to her bed when they assaulted her. They would either be bruised skin or sometimes a rash or a burn from rope burn from the rope. There was often blood on her sheets and in fact happened so frequently to her. This particular woman did not have a husband. It happened so frequently to her that it almost sort of became a routine to get up and just wash the sheets every day to get the bloodstains out and then make their beds again. Oh, my God. And there was another woman who remembered at least once waking up and seeing a man on top of her and, you know, wanting to scream out and not being able to find her voice to like sort of find someone, her vocal cords to be able to say or do anything and feeling like and also wanting to kind of raise

her limbs to push him off and not being able to summon the force to get him off of her. So these are these are the kinds of stories that that I heard. Really horrific and so difficult to listen to. I know the colony's about 2,000 people. Could you give me a sense of the scope of this? How many women, and there were children too, right, who were victims? Officially, so meaning in the court documents what the men were charged with,

about 130 official victims ranging in age from three to 65. Three. Wow. Yeah. Unofficially, it was a lot more than 130 women. The judge referenced this, and even just in my own reporting, it seemed to touch almost every household in some form. And so I think that number that's in the court case is probably much, much lower than reality. How did the leaders of the community respond to what the women said was happening to them, like when they started to first talk about this? was happening to them, right? Like when they started to first talk about this. So it started happening amongst women. And, and at the very beginning, women weren't even telling each other what happened. They just were so perplexed and thought it was only them that

they were scared to say anything to anyone else. So there was a period of time when this was happening all over and women weren't even talking with other women. You know, if they were in bed with their husbands, sometimes husbands would accuse them of cheating on them, having an affair. You know, once it sort of was being talked about a bit more widely, the most common kind of explanation or excuse was that it was either an act of wild female imagination or that there were demons or ghosts who were raping the women. After it went on for, you know, a number of years, I spoke with one of the leaders of the colony during the time of these attacks kind of leading into 2009 when the men were finally handed over to the Bolivian police. And he said, you know,

quite honestly, to me, at some point, we just didn't know what to do. And so we didn't do anything at all. Really? Wow. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to,

50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. What happened at the trial?

You know, so you mentioned the community did eventually hand over several men to Bolivian police. And then what happened? Yeah, so they were handed over in 2009 because one of them was caught and then he named some of his co-conspirators. I should note, and this is sort of portrayed in the movie, and this part is very accurate. They were essentially taken to the Bolivian police for their own protection. There was so much anger and so much rage built up that when they finally captured them, they realized the only way to not have these men essentially be lynched within the colony was to hand them over to the Bolivian police. The trial happened two years later in 2011. There were eight men who sort of,

you know, stood in the courtroom. To this day, I should say the men say, the men officially pled not guilty and say that they did not do this, that this was all made up, but they are, they are in prison now. And we've been focusing on women and girls, but your reporting also revealed that men and boys have been victims too, right? Yes. I didn't get any men or boys victims to go on the record, but that was sort of generally known throughout the colony that they had also attacked men and boys.

I imagine it was risky for people to reveal some of this to you, right? I'm sure it was risky for the women to talk to you. And why do you think they wanted you to know? That's a good question. There are worldwide communities of Mennonites who care very much about what happens in the old colonies. There are groups within Bolivia, there are groups in Canada and several other countries. And in the aftermath of the rapes, a lot of these groups offered support to the colonists. They

offered therapy and counseling sessions for the women. What I found out was that the men in the colony had essentially blocked those offers with the excuse of, well, if women don't remember what happened, why would they need any counseling? But what I also learned was that the women themselves didn't even know that those offers had been made. That was information that I had found out through my own reporting. And so in conversation, I kind of realized that I was offering new information to them that they didn't even realize. And so I tell this story because I think these women saw me as certainly an outsider, but someone who was genuinely trying to

understand their experiences and help in some way. And I think there was a sense of relief, like, oh, folks care about what's going on. I think they felt not just comfortable, but maybe that there was something important and sort of vital in being honest and then sharing their stories with the wider world, because maybe then there would be, there would be more support or more help in the future.

I wonder if we could spend a little bit of time now talking about the movie. Sarah Pauly has been really clear that she's making fiction. In her film, the women debate three options. They can stay and do nothing. They can stay and fight. Or they can flee. And a question that I had watching it is what choices did the actual women in Manitoba colony in Bolivia have to deal with the violence that they were facing, you think? I would say they didn't have many options or many choices at all. In my conversations with women

there, and again, my intention of going back and living there was trying to understand how they were healing, how they were coping, what choices they had made and were making in the aftermath of the men, of the rapes being exposed and men being imprisoned. And by and large, what I was told was essentially the option of stay and do nothing, that we must forgive, period. If we don't forgive, we are not afforded eternal salvation. This is what our religion tells us. This is what our entire worldview tells us, that forgiveness is the most important thing and that, you know, it's not sort of for their benefit, but for ours. And so this happened, we move on. I think a corollary to that is, you know, women certainly wrestling with, well, why did this happen? And I think

what's challenging about, at least sort of from my avowedly feminist standpoint, is the women would respond, well, this must have happened because God tests his people, right? God tests his people with fire. We were being tested. Our faith was being tested. And so if anything, we must double down in our faith in the Mennonite religion. We must double down in our forgiveness in order to have this not happen again. Okay. On that note of forgiveness, it's maybe worth mentioning there was this BBC documentary from a couple of years ago. There were some men in the community who wanted to see the men released. What our ministers always say is that we have to forgive,

even if someone's committed a crime. So in that sense, we'd like them to return here. And what about the survivors of those attacks, the women and girls from Manitoba? I've heard a bit about this, that maybe the women would be afraid the attacks could happen again. But I don't think the fear would be sufficient for them to say the men shouldn't leave prison.

And do you have a sense of how things are in Manitoba colony today or if any of the women have reacted to the fictional book down the film, like, or how they're feeling? So I can't, you know, I have not been in touch with women since I left. I mean, the sort of pure logistics of it and that they have no landlines. And even if I were to write a letter in Spanish, even the women who could speak Spanish, like the woman who took me around and sort of served as my translator, can't read it. So I don't know is, you know, sort of the first and base answer. I also, though, would be very surprised if any women in Manitoba colony, if any of them knew that the book Women Talking exists, or that a film was made sort of based on the real life experiences

that happened to them. Why do you think it's important that people also know about the real story here? It's important because these are folks' lives, right? I mean, I think, first of all, I want to say that, you know, the book is, it's an incredible novel. It's a beautifully made and powerful film. I'm incredibly glad that they exist in the world and that they're elevating, you know, all of the conversations that they're elevating about faith, forgiveness, women's rights and agency, democracy, all of the themes that are touched on by the book and the film. And I certainly understand Sarah Polly's artistic decision to sort of unmoor it from Bolivia and from the real life events so that it has more relevance for the rest of us. And also, I just keep thinking, how would it feel that their real life experiences were the basis for a book and then a movie?

And that the vast majority of the people who see that film have no idea that it happened in Bolivia and have no idea that these things happened in real life. And I guess related to that, and I'm just going to make a note for listeners that I'm about to reveal like basically the end of the movie. So I'm just gonna pause for a second in case you want to turn off this podcast. Okay. I mean, really the end is a hopeful note, right? About survivors of abuse moving on, figuring out a path forward. The film leaves us with this image of the women packed up and leaving the community to protect themselves. And when I was going through your reporting, it really left us with a sense that the real people, the women, the girls, and the male victims were still unsafe. And you've just talked about how the option that was in front of them was to forgive.

And so what do you make of that choice to present a version of the story where the women managed to escape when in real life, that's not what happened? I guess my thoughts here are a bit complicated in the sense that it was sort of, in some ways, a wonderful feeling to watch the film and to get to that moment where they decide to leave. Because it feels good, right, to us as the viewers of like, yes, they are taking a stand and this is what I would have wanted or would still want for the real women in Manitoba colony, Bolivia. These like complex feelings that we have of women from the outside, of wanting to, feeling like we need to rescue them, right? And like, just get out of there and

take them out of there. And also the fact that as a reporter, it does me a disservice to see things through the lens of my feminist worldview. And I try as hard as possible to understand people on their own terms from their own perspective. And that's really hard. I was like, put back in that position of wanting so strongly for this to have been reality. And also knowing that that is, that is not reality. And it's also maybe not my place to want that. Do you know what I mean?

I don't know. I'm trying to figure out how to articulate it. Yeah. It's like, it's very complex. Yeah. Issue to navigate. Jean, thank you so much for this. I'm, I'm really grateful that we were able to have this conversation today.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate the opportunity as well. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.