Front Burner - The refugees of Roxham Road, Canada's busiest 'irregular' border crossing

Episode Date: October 1, 2019

In 2017 an unprecedented number of people were crossing into Canada illegally from the United States at Roxham Road to claim asylum. And in just two years, about 50,000 migrants have entered Canada through this unofficial entry point. Today on Front Burner, CBC’s Susan Ormiston returns to Roxham Road to unpack how it became internationally known as a de facto border crossing for those seeking refugee status in Canada.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. I left Nigeria with frustration. I get to America, it's even worse. Look at my kids.

Please, we need a home. We need a home. You need a home. Our children need to go to school. A Niger we need a home. We need a home. You need a home. Our children need to go to school. A Nigerian mother of four, she traveled by bus and taxi with her young family and a few small possessions stuffed into backpacks. All to make the crossing into Canada from the U.S. to seek asylum at Roxham Road, an unofficial border crossing. Do you think you'll be able to stay in Canada?

I can work. I can work. I'm an African woman. If I see job, I will do it. I want to take care of children. I want better life for children. My colleague Susan Ormiston was there that day, back in 2017. And in just two years, about 50,000 migrants have entered Canada through this point.

So with the federal election only weeks away and immigration still a fraud issue, Susan returned to Roxham Road to find out what's changed when asylum seekers enter Canada irregularly. This is Frontburner. Susan, welcome back. Thanks very much.

Always a pleasure to have you here. So do you remember that mother, that Nigerian woman you met in 2017? Yeah, she sounded so desperate and afraid. She was arriving by herself in a taxi with these four small children, and what a risk. I don't forget these people ever, because no matter what you think about this subject, one needs to remind oneself that these people are coming from another country,

completely taking a huge leap of faith, a risk. They don't know what the future will bring, but they feel whatever the future will be better than where they are. Right. How long have you been in America? Close to a year now. There's no job with four children. No job, nothing, no place to live. We used to go to church, to go to mosque,

to beg for money or food for our children. Now they don't want to take them to school. I remember your coverage and all the coverage back then. There was this unprecedented number of people crossing into Canada illegally from the U.S. at Roxham Road to claim asylum. And I know it's been a while since you've been there, so you talked to that woman back in 2017. What does Roxham Road look like now? You know, we went back almost two years to the day.

And the changes were quite dramatic. So where before you had a very rough path and a sort of makeshift crossing, you had tents on the Canadian side where the RCMP would wait and would do the initial processing. Are you aware that the very minute you cross this border, your status in the United States is nullified? Yes. Now there is a permanent building, semi-permanent, a structure, a built structure with a foundation. And they've moved the path from one side to the other, made it shorter. And they've built a culvert underneath because there was flooding.

There's been a lot of things put into place that make it seemingly a more regular, normalized crossing, even though it is not an official border. There are more signs now. Signs are more specific, saying this is not a free ticket to Canada. Stop. This is not an official border. But what's the same is that people seem to know how to get across. Make sure that you bring everything with you. You will not be allowed to cross over. Okay. And tell me more about that. Well, before, as you heard, that woman sounded so afraid and so uncertain. What I observed this time in September was that people were more sure of themselves. They felt more confident about the process. They knew that they would be instructed by the RCMP to stop, that they would be told they would be arrested, that they'd be urged to go to the official entry, border entry down the road. But it's a bit of a dance in that the RCMP know they go to the official entry, border entry down the road. But it's a bit of a dance in that the RCMP know they have to do this and they have a protocol.

The migrants also know it's coming. Right. And so it's almost like choreographed. It's a standoff. It is choreographed. And it's a standoff. So if you cross here, you will be arrested by the police. Do you understand? Yeah. Okay. And I'm not going to invite you to come in. It's your decision, okay? And there is no turning back for the migrants. One moment. Now you are in Canada, okay?

You are under arrest for illegal entry to Canada. Do you understand? So they seemed more well-informed, either by those who have gone ahead of them, family or friends, or just by the internet. Right. So before they come, they know that this is this whole process, which has now been institutionalized in a way by the Canadian government. It has, and it doesn't seem surprising to them that they will be told they're going to be arrested. Right. Because they are already prepared for what they have to do in order to make this leap.

Just remind me, after they're arrested, what happens to them? I mean, they don't get sent to jail, right? No. So the law says that if anyone crosses other than at an official border into our country, that is illegal and you will be arrested. However, if you are a migrant and you are making a claim for asylum to get into the refugee system in Canada, you will not be punished for crossing in that way. So once across, they will try to make an application for asylum.

Not all will be successful. applying, then they go into the system of where they go through the refugee system, just like any others would to determine whether they are not whether they are indeed a refugee meeting the criteria, just like all other refugees who come in different ways. Right, right. And just to elaborate on that a little bit, I know that central to this story is this deal between Canada and the US called the Safe Third Country Agreement. There's a very large part of the reason why we're seeing all of these people cross irregularly. Exactly. So yeah So remind me what this is. In the mid 2000s, this treaty came into effect. And what it means is, if you have come from the United States, and you should be applying for refugee status there because it's deemed or was, a safe third country. Immigration Minister Denis Coderre says this deal is needed because the system is overloaded.

You know, there's a matter of resource, there's a matter of the integrity of the program by itself. So if these people went to the border at L'Ecole, they could be turned back. Right, the official border crossing. Yeah, you should apply in the U.S. Yeah, you should apply in the U.S. However, if you appear at an unofficial crossing, then you don't come under the safe third country agreement. Okay, okay. It's a little complicated. I know it's taking me a while to wrap my head around this idea the last couple of years.

The idea that, you know, you can come from the United States and you can show up at an airport and you can be turned away immediately and get sent back to the United States because that's like a safe country to be in. But you can walk across the border, like at an unofficial entry point and claim asylum here and not get turned away. Yeah, I think what's tricky here, and it is complicated, is the arresting part, because there's been a lot said about these people that they are, quote, illegals. And that is a term we've heard applied to the southern United States border. Now, technically, they are illegally crossing, but there's nothing illegal about what they do when they get into Canada. It's perfectly legal to then apply, not that you'll get it, but apply to be a refugee once you're on Canadian soil. So depending on what side you're on in this very contentious debate,

you will either reinforce the illegal part or reinforce the legal part, according to refugee international conventions. Right, right. Before we get to what's been happening to people after they crossed the border at Roxham Road, can you tell me about some of the people that you met here? That too was different from 2017. The people coming from what they call source countries has changed. So that in 2017, you'll remember we saw waves of Haitians. And then there's been this wide swath of other people. I was stunned, I might say, at the number of countries. We've talked about Nigeria, Colombia is in the top four, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Pakistan, Sudan, Angola, Turkey, Venezuela, Sri Lanka and Lebanon, Eritrea. I must have seen almost a dozen in the less than 24 hours I was there.

Where are you from, sir? What country? I'm from Yemen. I'm from Afghanistan. So where are you from? Eritrea. Eritrea? Yeah.

Let's go. That's interesting. Do you know why? It's fascinating. Well, I think that it shows that there are people seeking asylum all over the world. And that this Roxham Road has become a for me to seek asylum in a way that I hadn't been able to before, and they are arriving. The other interesting note is that there's no statistics on this, but according to the UNHCR, a majority of people are not spending a lot of time in the United States. They're not running out of visa in the U.S., two-year visa, visitor's visa. They are arriving fairly recently, often by plane from overseas flights and making their way up by bus, plane or train to Wrexham Road. I should note here that there's been a lot of talk about queue jumping. And again, according to immigration authorities in Canada

and the UNHCR, it's first come first served. So no matter in what way you apply as a refugee, you will get processed at that time. So they're not taking spots from other people who are applying at regular border crossings or coming into airports or applying from inside Canada. Okay. I mean, you hear Andrew Sher talk about this quite a lot. There is nothing compassionate about forcing people to wait longer who are in refugee camps

in places where there is civil war, where they will be killed if they leave those camps, where they have to wait longer because some people are skipping the line and jumping the queue. Yes, and you hear Elizabeth May correcting him. There is no queue for refugees. There is no queue for refugees. So I know one criticism I've heard of this irregular crossing is that it's costing money, right? The crossing itself is costing money. Institutionalizing it like this is costing money. And then on the other side, too, it's costing money.

So while people are waiting to have their asylum claims evaluated, you know, they are using the health care system here and other sort of social services. Indeed, that raises a lot of concerns for people and it's the subject of some anger out there for sure. You got plenty of people here, got nothing to eat and then they come over there, they get everything they want. I mean, you stand at that crossing and you say, boy, there's a building here now, there's a permanent RCMP rotation of staff there. There were four different languages offered by the RCMP officers when I was there.

So this is definitely a resource decision by the government, and people get uncomfortable with that. It's not unlike the whole refugee question, though. You know, why should they be coming to our country and taking our resources in general? So this is just in your face about it, and it's a regular crossing, so it raises their ire even more. And there's no question this is a valid, contentious question for this country. The parliamentary budget officer outlined the cost associated with these claimants. So here's the estimate. The cost for each irregular migrant in 2017 and 2018 was more than $14,000.

Keep in mind, this is for each one. These costs will go up, mostly because of health costs in terms of the federal program for health, because the longer these people are in the queue and in limbo, the more those costs accrue. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Can we talk about the numbers a little bit? You mentioned that there are people coming from more countries this time around, but what about the overall numbers? Same number of people, less people? I was really curious about that. And so one of the reasons we went back was, you know, what's going on? We don't hear about it anymore. So the numbers peaked in 2017.

I just used the three months of summer as a comparative example. So June, July, August, more than 9,000 in 2017. In 2018, those numbers dropped significantly by more than 40%. So the government was able to persuade and dissuade migrants from coming in that way. But this summer, we saw the numbers creep up again, not to peak levels, but higher than last summer. So, for example, in June, July, August of this year, about 5,100 came across at Roxham Road. So that's over 700 from last summer, same three months. So it's not petering out. You mentioned earlier that Canada may have been successful at dissuading some people from coming, at least at certain pockets. What would they have been doing that would have been dissuading people? whether in Haiti or in the United States. They were doing social media campaigns in Venezuela, Pakistan, and Nigeria. They were trying to get the message out with communities that, A, this is not a sure thing,

and B, this is not the preferred way for you to make an asylum claim. And they did see the effect of that. You know, 2018, you saw the numbers drop by over 40%. But as one person said to me, there was a woman out there who's an American woman. She lives nearby. She's actually the mayor of Champlain, the area, which is a hamlet, really. And she's been going out two hours a day, six days a week for two years. Wow. She's been an observer.

Would you like a snack, sir? For later, it's a gift. It's been an observer. Would you like a snack, sir? For later, it's a gift. It's a gift. And she said, you know, to her, what this whole thing indicates is how many people are desperate to make an asylum claim, are desperate. Migrants are desperate in the world, and so they were coming up this route. You know, people are coming because they're fleeing. You know, they're fleeing persecution or they're fleeing famine or they're fleeing the effects of climate change. I think

most humans are seeking a place where they can raise their families safely. It would be hard to shut down that human urge to find safety for a family. And her belief is that if this were closed, if there was in some way the law was changed and this was closed, then it will go back to people sneaking across the Canadian border in an unsafe way. Right. When I say sneaking, I mean crossing, but with no system around it. Into maybe very, very unsafe situations where they're in the middle of some field or forest and with children. And that would be that would be pretty heartbreaking. At least at Roxham Road, you have a secure, controlled environment, both for the government of Canada, but also for the

migrants. And I understand there's like this small industry around it now, right? Like you can get cabs to bring you from like the United States to Roxham Road. They advertise this like it's a safe way to cross versus, I don't know, trying to cross a body of water or like a barren field in the middle of the winter. Or being taken advantage of and gouged. It's incredible, the industry that's grown up. I mean, the taxis are now, as changed from 2017, some are branding themselves as refugee border shuttles.

Wow. This lady here, I charge $60. Right on my door, see the door? That is what I charge. Five people, $80. I try to be fair to them. You mentioned the mayor and how she's been working with these people who have been claiming asylum. Is her attitude indicative of the attitude of sort of neighboring towns and cities? of the attitude of sort of neighbouring towns and cities because I remember a lot of anger around the influx

of all of these people crossing from the people who live near the border but also from the cities that had to deal with the influx, Montreal, Toronto. Which now says its shelter system is overwhelmed, struggling to house more than 3,000 refugee and asylum claimants in addition to the city's homeless. From Toronto's Mayor, a plea. We need help. We cannot continue to do this alone.

We just don't have the resources to do it alone and we just don't have the personnel. I think it varies depending on where you stand in which country. So on the New York side of Roxham Road, the people who live along that road, from my very brief summary, seem to be relaxed about it. They're not worried about them. They don't cause them any problems. They know they're going directly to the border. They're not coming through their backwoods going across. So again, the controlled works for them and it's probably extremely secure. But they don't bother anybody. They just keep on their way, go up and cross the border. They're doing a good thing. Get the hell out of Dodge.

On the Quebec side of Roxham Road, a different story. They've seen a lot more traffic come up and down that road, RCMP vehicles, transfer vans. And the federal government has actually compensated people who live the closest to the border for that disruption on their road. They've paid them. And they have varying degrees of acceptance. Some don't worry about it for the reasons I've mentioned. Come on in. You're welcome to come into Canada. It's a free country here, and hopefully they can find refuge here, you know.

And others are quite hostile. We spoke to one man who did not want to be interviewed at all, but he clearly was not in favor of this. They should put a fence, see? That's it. And just go by the door, the front door, see? A little. Not beside it. And can we talk a little bit about what happens to these migrants once they come here, are arrested, and then apply for asylum?

Have they been successful, generally, in getting asylum here? Yeah, so the first thing to know is that they have to apply for asylum. Some are turned away immediately that they don't meet the original criteria. The statistics show there is a huge backlog now of refugee claimants in general, no matter how they came into this country. So only a third have been processed of the people who came across irregularly. So a third of the over 50,000. And of those third, about half, And of those third, about half, about 55% have been successful, meaning they redeemed refugees in Canada and have been given status here. We spoke earlier in this conversation about how we hadn't been hearing a lot about this and also wonder if it's because, in part, no one really seems to know how to solve this problem. And so we're not hearing politicians talk about it very much.

And has that changed at all with this upcoming election? Yes, I think that immigration in general is a part of our election for sure. And people do have different views of it. The conservatives say that they would close all those irregular crossings. We will work to put an end to the illegal border crossings at unofficial points of entry like Roxham Road by closing the loophole in the Safe Third Country Agreement that allows some people to skip the line. But they don't say how that would happen because currently there's a treaty that would have to be opened up and

renegotiated with the United States. The safe third country. Yes. The NDP, the Green Party, and the Bloc Québécois would actually like to spend or abandon altogether the safe third country agreement with the United States, which would move those migrants to regular border crossings, because they needn't fear that they would be turned back to the U.S. They could simply just come and apply, and they would go through the same process that they had been going through at this irregular border crossing. Yes, that's right.

What's happening in the States has made it absolutely clear that asylum seekers in the States are no longer safe. They are no longer safe under the Trump administration. But again, it's an existing law, so it would have to be abandoned. And what the Canadian government appears to have done is regularize the irregular crossing in a way that they can control it the best they can until a solution is found. And I might note that overall, the people who come across at the irregular crossings are only 25% of the refugees who come to Canada. So the majority of people are still coming to borders, by land, by air, or applying from inside Canada, having run out of a visa or something.

Right. Now that you've been to Roxham Road two times, I'm interested, when you're standing at that border, you're watching this play out, what's going through your mind? What are you thinking about? You know, Jamie, I've reported, as you know, all over the world and oftentimes about refugees and people in desperate conditions. And I'm still struck every time I go to Roxham Road, the drama playing out there. It's a very interesting place to stand and watch people taking the biggest risk of their lives,

unsure of the future. And it's amazing to me to see it happen every day, day after day, month after month in this way. I think for most of us, refugees in this country are invisible. Unless you work with them, you don't see them coming to the airport. You don't stand at the regular border crossing at Le Col Quebec and see them coming across the border. But you can stand on this little country road in between two countries and get a good grasp of what the movement of people in the world is all about right in our backyard. Susan, thank you so much.

Okay. Just a small update before we go. Remember the Nigerian woman Susan met back in 2017 at Roxham Road, the mother with the four young children? Well, before I said goodbye to Susan today, she mentioned that that woman and her family were accepted as refugees in Canada. And so I just wanted to share that information with you. And on a different note, our friends over at The National have a project going this week. It's really interesting. I'm going to be tuning in all week.

It's called Face to Face. And the major party leaders are all sitting down with a series of undecided voters, Justin Trudeau, Andrew Scheer, Jagmeet Singh, and Elizabeth May. They cover a range of issues, and we're going to be wrapping the whole thing together with national co-host Rosemary Barton for our Friday show. The Trudeau event has already happened, so go to the National's website if you want to check it out. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and see you all tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.