Front Burner - The reporter who brought down Jeffrey Epstein

Episode Date: July 20, 2021

Miami Herald reporter and author of 'Perversion of Justice' Julie K. Brown on Ghislaine Maxwell’s upcoming trial and her bombshell investigation into Jeffrey Epstein’s 2008 plea deal that brought global attention to the case.

My name is Graham Isidor. I have a progressive eye disease called keratoconus. Unmaying I'm losing my vision has been hard, but explaining it to other people has been harder. Lately, I've been trying to talk about it. Short Sighted is an attempt to explain what vision loss feels like by exploring how it sounds. By sharing my story, we get into all the things you don't see

about hidden disabilities. Short Sighted, from CBC's Personally, available now. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. And a warning before we get started today that this episode discusses sexual abuse and suicide. It was March of 2005 when a woman contacted the Palm Beach Police Department. She said her 14-year-old stepdaughter had been taken to a mansion by another girl and that while there she had been paid 300 bucks to take off her clothes and massage a much older man. That much older man was Jeffrey

Epstein and that complaint spawned a police investigation that uncovered many other similar stories. Underage girls, some as young as 14, brought to Epstein's home and sexually abused in acts ranging from inappropriate touching to rape. The detectives felt confident that they had a really solid case. But what followed was not decades in prison for serial sex crimes against minors. Instead, in 2008, Epstein pleaded guilty in Florida to two counts of solicitation of prostitution, one of those with a minor. He served 13 months in a county jail under extremely lax conditions. This plea, it came after reaching a deal with the U.S. Attorney's Office in South Florida, a deal that granted him and any other possible co-conspirators immunity from federal sex trafficking charges. The man who oversaw this deal as U.S. attorney in Miami was Alex Acosta.

And when Acosta was made Donald Trump's labor secretary in 2017, it got Miami Herald reporter Julie K. Brown wondering. What must Epstein's victims think of this? She got to work. In late 2018, she published a three-part bombshell investigation into Jeffrey Epstein and this sweetheart deal. It caught the eye of federal prosecutors in New York City. And while at that point, Epstein had returned to his comfortable life of flying around the world in his private jet, he was soon back behind bars, charged this time with running a sex trafficking operation that preyed on dozens of underage girls. Of course, you probably know what happened next.

Jeffrey Epstein was found hanging in his jail cell in the summer of 2019, awaiting trial. Authorities ruled his death a suicide. But that's really not the end of the story. really not the end of the story. Epstein's longtime associate Ghislaine Maxwell is now in jail, accused of helping him lure, groom, and ultimately abuse underage girls. Her trial is expected to begin in the fall. She has pleaded not guilty to all charges.

Today, my conversation with Julie K. Brown about that upcoming trial, her investigation into this whole saga, and the many, many mysteries that still surround it. Her new book is called Perversion of Justice, The Jeffrey Epstein Story. Julie K. Brown, thank you so much for being here and for all your incredible reporting on the story. Thanks for having me. Your book explores how Jeffrey Epstein was able to get away with what he did for so long, and in particular, how he was able to get such a sweetheart plea bargain, even when the detectives had what they were sure was this really solid criminal case. And I wonder if you could just start by describing how unusual it was,

this deal he got in 2008 after being investigated for serious sex crimes with minors. Well, I think really to take it back to back when this happened in 2005, 2006, 2007, nobody really knew about this case very much. I mean, it was pretty much confined to Palm Beach. He was very successful in convincing people outside of Palm Beach that this was not a story, that he didn't do anything wrong, that this was somewhat of a witch hunt. So nobody really knew the depth, the scope of this crime until quite a few years later. And then by the time people found out about the crime and how bad it was, it was too late because he had already served his short jail sentence and he was already

out, you know, jet setting again. So I think that the reality or the understanding of this crime wasn't ever really fully realized. And once it was, which was only, you know, within the past couple of years, I think that's when people really examined it and said, wait a minute, I've never heard of something like this. How does someone who commits this kind of crime get away with it, essentially? So it really took some time for it to sink in because he was very successful at manipulating not only the criminal justice system, but the media to some degree, and other forces among the public, you know, wealthy people who he continued to socialize with, you know, the full gamut of people that he was friends with, even somehow were convinced that this was no big deal,

the crime that he had to do. And just to be clear, like the detectives and the prosecutors involved in this case, did they understand the depth of this crime back then? I think that there were some people, obviously the Palm Beach Police Department, which to me were really the whole, the real heroes in this whole case. This is a very small town police department in a very wealthy community, and they understood how bad it was, how serious it was. But every time they tried to tell prosecutors, wait a minute, this is really serious. You don't understand. You want to charge him with this minor crime and let him get away with it. But this is really serious. But every time they did that, they hit a brick wall and they were sort of the prosecutors

that they were dealing with, both in Palm Beach and later in Miami, you know, through the U.S. attorney's office, didn't really listen to them. You know, there's no other way to describe it. They just didn't listen to them. You know, this deal, it was quite extraordinary. It offered him immunity. His victims weren't told about it. Co-conspirators were also protected from prosecution. And having spent so much time now looking at this case, why do you think that the prosecution didn't listen? I think he was just a very powerful man and they didn't want to go up against him. They thought, quite frankly, I think they

underestimated the victims. They underestimated the police. They just underestimated, you know, the media, which the media really didn't really hop onto the story until later. You know, I think they just initially thought these were a bunch of girls that nobody would listen to, and they got money for what they did. And somehow they felt that these girls were prostitutes, even though they were 13, 14, 15, 16 years old. that these girls could be considered culpable. In other words, if you put them in front of a jury and you have a defense attorney, a high-powered defense attorney like Roy Black, questioning these girls and saying, well, you took $300 and how many times did you go back? Oh, I went back 25 times. Well, then how can you call yourself a victim? I think that that's what was going through some of these prosecutors' heads at the time. I can't even imagine how painful it was for his victims to see him get off so easy,

especially after the courage that it must have taken to come forward against this guy. And I know that you have interviewed a number of Epstein's victims. And what did they tell you about how they felt when they learned about this deal and how little time that he ended up spending in jail? I think that that was, and my voice might crack with this because the memory of the interviews still sort of lives inside of me. And that was the hardest part of this story was seeing how years later, a decade after the crime, how much it had traumatized and affected them. That was probably the hardest part of doing this story was realizing that these were girls and young women that nobody cared about. And because

they didn't care about them and because of the way that the case was handled, they felt themselves that they were worthless. They themselves felt that they were trash. They blamed themselves because of the way, in large large part because of the way they were treated and to think that these were young girls i mean imagine if this was your sister your daughter um and knowing how epstein and the people around him manipulated this whole situation manipulated these very young girls it's just it, it's maddening, really, to understand exactly what a travesty of justice this really was.

Fast forward here to 2018. You've worked so hard, I know, to untangle this story, to speak with these survivors, as you've talked about, to expose this deal that Epstein got from authorities. And your stories at the time came out in the Miami Herald. And then I remember they exploded, right? Half a year later, Jeffrey Epstein is arrested and charged with sex trafficking of minors in New York. And when he was arrested, did you think at the time, finally, like justice is going to be served here? Or did you think he'd still find some way out of it? You know, he was so successful.

You know, he was so successful, and this is part of what I go through in my book, how successful he was in really manipulating the criminal justice system the first time. I mean, really, really brilliantly successful that, of course, I thought it would be possible that he would figure a way around this eventually. But the firestorm of attention that his arrest received was surprising even to myself. And I thought, you know, I just don't know how any lawyer, you know, no matter if he hires the best lawyers in the world, is going to be able to surmount this and he's not going to get off. I mean, it's possible he might not serve life, but I thought really this time I felt like, yes, justice, even the fact that they went and had the courage to charge him this time, I thought was in of itself justice that they had the prosecutors in New York had the courage to do what they did, to me was huge, huge. Of course, any attempts to continue on that

on that avenue of prosecution, were cut short by Epstein's death in prison, which I want to come back to in a moment with you, because I know that there are still questions that swirl around that. But first, I want to ask you about another potential avenue for some sense of criminal justice for the victims here. And that's through Ghislaine Maxwell, who's currently in jail, awaiting trial this fall. And could you give us a sense of the allegations around just how like integral she was to this, how integral she was to this or to his operation. Well, you know, according to the indictments and the court documents, you know, she had been sued by several victims.

And so a lot of this is part of a public record right now. And according to the victims and the information that the prosecutors have, you know, filed in connection with her criminal case, she helped facilitate this whole sexual pyramid scheme, essentially, that he had. In addition to the new charge of sex trafficking of a minor, the amended indictment against her now also includes a charge of sex trafficking conspiracy. This is on top of six charges Maxwell was already facing tied to Epstein's alleged sex trafficking network. Maxwell wanted to be in court in person,

and today she again pleaded not guilty. Our earliest understanding of when he was starting to abuse underage minors was when Ghislaine Maxwell was very much a part of his life. And because of her manner, some of the victims said, for example, that she seemed very motherly, that she was very nurturing, that she sort of said, we're going to help you. We're going to help you with your schooling. They used all kinds of lines, so to speak, to lure these girls into their web. You know, Julie, now that she's sitting in a jail cell awaiting trial, what, if anything, do you hope we might still be able to learn from her? I guess my question is,

what questions do you have that she might have be able to learn from her. I guess my question is, what questions do you have that she might have the answers to? I mean, we still really don't know the scope, really, of this sex trafficking operation. You know, there obviously were other people involved, many other people that probably knew about it and did nothing and said nothing. We don't know, for example, exactly how this deal went down. She might have information about that, whether there was any corruption involved. We don't know how Epstein got his money. You know, that was an element of mystery to this. And did he get it through his sex trafficking or did he get it through some other illegal means? You know, he had computers at one point.

There's probably evidence, videos, you know, which have been mentioned many times. So there's an awful lot of unanswered questions that she might have information about. I think that it's very unlikely, however, that she's going to provide that information. I think she's going to take that information either to jail or to the grave with her because I just don't think she's going to, I don't think she's going to cooperate with authorities. All the indications on the case so far is that she's not going to do any of that. She's going to plead that she had nothing to do with it. You know, this was all something that, you know, Epstein did on his own.

That's how she's indicated so far. She that she's taking this defense. One thing that's always struck me about this story are these questions that Epstein may have had blackmail material on some of his powerful friends. And, you know, it's been suggested that if so, Ghislaine Maxwell would have known about it or had access to it. And so I wonder after all of your work on this case, if you could talk a bit about where you stand on this idea that Epstein may have had blackmail materials. He was pretty shrewd. I absolutely think he had blackmail material on people. Whether that material still exists is something I don't, or no, I don't think anyone really knows the answer to. But I do think also, this points to one of the key failures of the original prosecution in 2007, 2008.

I shouldn't say prosecution, the original criminal case, because he had a lot of computers that they let him somehow take to his lawyer's office and let his lawyers store. And they never tried to get that material. And, you know, probably that material is gone now and they could have really prosecuted him. They could have ended it all then had they even tried to get those computers from him. And it's sort of confounding to me, reading through the history of the case, knowing that,

you know, here's the great piece of evidence that you didn't even try to get. You know, it's kind of crazy to me. I'll see you next time. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples.

You know, I want to come back to Epstein's death in prison. So the official report is that he committed suicide there. But I understand that you still have questions about that. And can you tell me why, you know, as a journalist who's followed this case, you're not convinced? Well, I'm not convinced also because not only just because of the circumstances surrounding his death, but also because before I opened this investigation to Epstein, I covered the Florida prison system for four years. And I know the way things work in prison. I'm keenly aware of how these kinds of incidents happen and how they are often blamed on quote unquote suicides. I can't even tell you how many of these cases I've investigated that are clearly not suicides, but that are deemed suicides in the prison system. So I'm probably a little more skeptical than the average journalist about how this all went down. But beyond that, I know from

the information that we do have is that it's just outrageous to think that a man who basically never even tied his own shoelaces, you know, he had butlers doing everything for him, would have been able to figure out how to do this on his own. What, to hang himself? You don't think he could have figured out how to hang himself? Not that way, because they found three bones in his neck broken. And to be able to do it all by himself, I mean, he wasn't a big man. And to think that he could have done it by pulling against the top bunk think about this it's not like he hoisted a thing into the ceiling and then put his body weight into it that way by just jumping you know what i'm saying he did it from the top bunk which wasn't very high you know it's just the whole thing there are are too many like, you know, you know, the video really didn't show anything that cellmate that he had up until that time.

You remember, he had just come off a suicide watch. Mysteriously, the cellmate that he had was taken out the day before and he was left alone. And he was left alone. So why would you do that to one of the most high profile criminals in your jail? It would be like doing that with El Chapo and just letting El Chapo be in jail with himself. And I just don't, it doesn't make any sense. I get what you're saying about all the very real questions. But at the same time, we've seen this sort of Epstein didn't kill himself mantra, like basically become a meme. Like it's, it's,

it's actually become this kind of incredibly popular conspiracy theory online. And has it ever been hard for you or have you hesitated at all to express your discomfort with the official story here for, for fear of sounding like, and I'm not saying that you just sounded like one, but for fear of sounding like a conspiracy theorist. Well, I've never been one to pay any attention to what people think of me or else I probably

would have never done this story. I don't really worry about that. I do push back on conspiracy theories because, of course, there's a lot of outrageous ones out there. But I feel that my misgivings about this case really are based on the facts that we know. They're not based on some weird notion that he's out there somewhere or still alive or that maybe somebody, you know, some Mossad figure from Israel was snuck in and, you know, killed him. I don't. Right.

Or like the Clintons or. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's too far out there. But I just, you know, he could have, you know, essentially killed himself, but just had somebody help him do it. I mean, you know, I don't step as far to think that he was murdered, but I just don't think he did this all by himself. It's it's too too many like, you know, from early in my career. I remember, you know, police detectives that I have spoken to too many, like, you know, from early in my career, I remember, you know,

police detectives that I have spoken to about many, many cases would say there's no such thing as coincidence. And I would say in almost everything that I've worked on in my long career, where there's, you know, some kind of element of, wow, how did this happen? And this happened, and this happened. And almost every time I have found that there isn't a coincidence. So not that there aren't sometimes coincidences, but the fact that, you know, two guards fell asleep or were too busy playing video games or whatever. In my experience, you know, there's plenty of times when one falls asleep or one is distracted. You don't have two at the same time who are essentially watching one of the most high profile inmates that you have. I mean, how do you,

I just don't understand. There's all kinds of questions that, you know, we'll still be talking about this. Actually, the world will still be talking about this long after I'm gone. In my view, this will always be one of those enduring mysteries like JFK's assassination and the Rambanet-Ramsley case, which we still talk about now. I just think it's just going to just live on past my time here. I don't know whether we'll ever really find an answer. You know, it's clear from your book that this story was pretty, pretty all consuming, has been pretty all consuming for you. And I wonder, what has it been like for you to live with a story like this day in and day out for four years? Well, it kind of feels like you don't have a life. I feel like I missed out on a lot of things. I mean, I tried to engage in my children's lives, because that's the most important thing in the world to me. So I, but between the story and, you know,

the little bit of time that I allowed myself with my children, I didn't really have much else in my life going on, you know? So just imagine thinking about nothing from the time you wake up to the time you go to sleep, except for two things, your story and your kids. And that's basically what my life has been like. But I don't regret it because I've lived other stories that way. And I felt like the end game was so important, that exposing injustices and righting wrongs and uncovering corruption and helping people who are vulnerable, to me, is very, very rewarding, really. It's really very rewarding. And so if you keep your eye on the fact that that's what you're aiming for, I think it's a little bit easier. And also, for me, quite frankly, it makes me even more driven, um, to, to expose these

things and to do this work. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, Julie, I know this hasn't been an easy road for you, but I'm, I'm very grateful that you have kept your eye on that, on that end game. So thank you. Thank you for this conversation, which was really, really great. And thank you for all your work. Thank you very much. All right. So before we go today, some news from the border. On Monday, the federal government announced that as of August 9th, fully vaccinated U.S. citizens and permanent residents will be able to visit Canada without having to quarantine for two weeks.

And fully vaccinated travelers from the rest of the world will be able to follow suit as of September 7th. Adults entering the country will need to present proof that they've received a complete round of any of the vaccines approved for use in Canada and will still be required to submit a negative coronavirus test result before arriving. That is all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.