Front Burner - The secretive trials of ‘the two Michaels’

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

In China, the trials for Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have started and ended in the span of a few days, completely in secret. Globe and Mail reporter Nathan VanderKlippe tells us what he saw outside those courthouses, and where things go from here.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Canadian Michael Kovrig's secret trial is now over, but the uncertainty over his fate remains. It has been a dramatic day outside the courts. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have each spent more than 800 days behind bars in China, accused by the government there of stealing state secrets.

Charges that Canada has called hostage diplomacy in retaliation for the arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. Now, the trials for both the Michaels have, in the span of just a few days, commenced and finished in complete secret. No verdict, at least not yet. I'm Jamie Poisson, and today the Globe and Mail's Asia correspondent Nathan Vanderklip is here. He was outside both courthouses as these quote unquote trials took place. And we're also going to discuss how things could play out from here. Hi, Nathan. Thanks so much for coming back on the podcast. You're very welcome.

It's good to have you. So to start, you were there on Monday in front of the Beijing courthouse where Michael Kovrig was on trial. And can you set the scene for us? What was happening outside? Yeah, and I suppose that's probably the best question to ask because, you know, the other question is what was happening inside, which I can't tell you because we have no idea. Outside, what we had, particularly in the morning, was quite a large gathering of people. We had a large mass of media who had come to sort of cover this trial. And then we had quite a large number of diplomats as well. The United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Estonia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland. People from 22 countries, as well as the European Union. And of course, there were Canadian diplomats

there as well, all coming to sort of both show support for Michael Kovrig, who was on trial, as well as to show support for the Canadian government and its demands to be both let into the trial and to make the point that I suppose that the Canadian government has made, which is that they feel that this is arbitrary detention. And so you had all of these people there in the morning. It got a little active between the media. You can interview here. Okay? No, I'm not interviewing. I've already told them. The police kept trying to move people away from the main car entrance to the courthouse.

You can tell we're just going to wait until the vehicle arrives and then we'll go. There were journalists who were sort of pushed and kicked as the police tried to clear people away. I mean, it was just such a bizarre thing because, you know, we were standing there. And of course, what we wanted was to try to get some pictures of the car that was taking michael kovrig in perhaps even an image of michael kovrig himself going in because he hasn't been seen in 833 days it's just one of these elements of the way he has been treated that he has he has just sort of disappeared for this very long length of time.

So there was a desire to sort of get some images of this. But the security agents didn't want journalists to be there. And so they came out at one point in time, quite early in the morning, with two or three rolls of police tape. And they literally just started unrolling this police tape around where journalists were clustered and then saying oh now you're inside the police tape according to the rules the People's Republic of China you cannot be inside the police tape you need to leave Korea

Korea okay to the South Gate okay here's the police line and so we would go to a different place and then the rolls of police tape would come out and unspool around us and the same argument would be made i mean it was it was it was quite it was quite a thing and then that sounds so bizarre it was yeah and you know the first the first they cordoned off the sidewalks. And so, of course, people ended up standing on the road. And then they tried to cordon off part of the road. And then at one point there was a cluster of journalists and diplomats who were there. And a street cleaner came through. And it's hard to know.

I mean, was this organized or was this not? But it was just this bizarre thing where they were trying to get people out. was organized or was this not but it was just this bizarre thing where they were trying to get people out and suddenly the street cleaner with its sort of spinning pads and this spray came through which of course did succeed in getting people to move anyways it was it was just very very strange Ultimately, though, I don't know how Michael Kovrig got into court. You mentioned before you were trying to see him. I'm assuming then you didn't. No, no, we didn't. And I had some expectation of that because, as you said, I was at the trial for Michael Spavor on Friday.

expectation of that because i as you said i was at the trial for michael spavor on friday and at that point in time there was a small convoy of cars that came in in the morning and a small convoy that left after his trial concluded so we can only assume that he was in those and there was a couple police cars and then a couple police vans uh the police vans the rear windows were really heavily blacked out and so even if you were standing like a foot away from the windows there, all you could see was a reflection of yourself. You couldn't see inside. But kind of the expectation was that we would see at least something similar, police vehicles coming in and out of the courthouse that we could assume that Michael Kovrig was inside. We didn't. There was an unarmed transport vehicle in sort of military olive green that went out right about the time that we were told

that the trial for Michael Kovrig had concluded on Monday. Was he inside? Was he not? No idea. I know, at least in the COVID case, Canadian diplomats were demanding, essentially, to be let inside the courtroom. And can you tell me a little bit about how that went? Well, not well. Despite the international agreement that China has signed under the Vienna Convention that would allow consular officers access to hearings for their citizens, we are being denied that access. Yes. And it was a similar dynamic with the michael spavor case as well in both cases you had the diplomats sort of coming to the main entrance pedestrian entrance to the

court and asking for entry in advance of that they had sent faxes saying we want to be there and they had been formally told by court authorities that they would not be allowed to be inside just because these were, according to China, cases dealing with state secrets. And as a result, the trials were being held in secret, closed trials. And I think it's worth pointing out here that the definition of state secrets in China can be what I think most people would consider very liberal. The Chinese government is accusing two Canadians of spying. Kevin and Julia Garrett are suspected of stealing state secrets and collecting national security and military information. Kevin Garrett, who was another Canadian that was sort of done up on a

state secrets trial, some of the evidence against him involved photographs he had taken from public roads. One of them was a photograph of the Friendship Bridge in Dandong, which goes between China and North Korea. And he said, well, that's one of the leading tourist attractions in Dandong. How could that be a state secret? And he was told, well, it's one of the leading tourist attractions in Dandong. How could that be a state secret? And he was told, well, it's the angle of the picture that you took that makes it a state secret. So I think that's perhaps a telling indicator of what China uses to consider as state secrets, and in doing so, what it uses as justification to hold trials behind closed doors. as justification to hold trials behind closed doors.

And I know, obviously, you didn't have eyes on this trial, and no one from the Canadian government did, but do we have any sense at all of anything that happened inside these courtrooms? I mean, the only indicator that we really have is actually from Kevin Garrett, because he was in the same courthouse building as michael spavor was when michael spavor was trying on friday and what kevin garrett has said was that he was installed in the center of a room there were no spectators there were only something like 10 people there including uh three judges, a couple of guards. Two prosecutors to the left, my lawyer to the right, and an interpreter in the room as well, as well as a camera.

And that's it. And the day proceeded with the prosecutors reading into the record or submitting evidence that was effectively summaries of interrogations that he had undergone in advance. He struggled to find places to be able to speak. But the problem was, I couldn't really talk to my lawyer. I was never given permission to talk to him. I could never really, quote, defend myself. It was a very unfamiliar experience for him just because it was just so different from what we would expect the trial to look like in Canada. It's really horrifying because it's happening again. I mean, especially for Michael Spavor, he's in the same prison I was in. I know exactly really how it will go from my experience. I don't think it'll be any different

for him. And it's just, it's a horrible, horrible feeling feeling for michael spavor his trial appeared to have lasted all of two hours michael kovrig it went from 9 a.m till a court statement that came out just before 6 30 p.m but of course you know that's a day and compare that with the extradition hearing for mung wang joe which has now been going on for more than two years. Do we have any idea when there might be a ruling on either of these cases? We don't. I mean, it's hard to escape what appears to be a very strong political element in these trials. And that might suggest that we would see sentencing when it is politically convenient to use sentencing to make a point of some sort or to add pressure on the Canadian government vis-a-vis the case against Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. So we'll see. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because

money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Why do you think China, the Chinese government, made the decision to go ahead with these trials now? Like, do you see this as an escalation? What are they trying to accomplish here and now? Well, there's a few ways to look at that. One is that these trials are long overdue. These men were both officially charged last June, and that would suggest the trial should have happened at any point since then. Another is that there are background issues in terms of the politics surrounding these cases, which is

one, the ongoing extradition hearing for Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver, and two, the Canadian government earlier this year led an effort to create a declaration against arbitrary detention, which was effectively sort of an international condemnation of hostage diplomacy that was signed by more than 50 countries. And the Canadian government tried to make clear that this was not aimed directly at China, but I'm not sure how many people believe that. Do you mean China? There are many countries that are involved with it, and we decided to be country agnostic in today's

announcement because it happens in a number of countries. But then, of course, then the other element to this is that the trial for Michael Spavor happened at exactly the same time as some of the talks were taking place between the U.S. and China in Anchorage. And so the timing of these trials does seem like it was very closely aligned with those talks. Right. And on that note, you know, Canada obviously arrested Meng Wanzhou because she's facing charges in the U.S. And the U.S. obviously has the power to figure out a resolution to this case. And so with this new administration now, and these recent talks in Alaska, are there any signals that this could happen at all? Well, we've seen one different signal, which is that we've seen the Biden administration

apparently telling the Canadian side that they are treating Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor as if they were US citizens. And we've heard that from Canada's ambassador to Washington, and we heard that here in Beijing yesterday from diplomatic representatives of the Canadian government who were at the trial who said the same thing. the U.S. will advocate very strongly on their behalf. But I suppose the idea that the U.S. government is intervening on their behalf in terms of trying to push China for the release is very different from the U.S. government intervening on their behalf on American soil and releasing the charges against Meng Wanzhou. And I don't think we've seen any indication of that. Right, that that could possibly happen. Right. And in order for that to happen, I mean, you would have to have a political move into the U.S. justice system to release the charges against Meng Wanzhou. And I'm not sure that we have any indication that the Biden administration

is open in doing so. Do you think, you know, increased pressure from the United States? And then you mentioned, of course, at the beginning of this conversation, all of these foreign diplomats who showed up at the courthouse, this resolution where over 50 countries stood against arbitrary detentions. Is this having any influence at all? I mean, you'll hear from people who look at and study these things that they would suggest that, you know, having this kind of foreign pressure on China is at some point likely to perhaps produce some results in the sense that China doesn't like the idea of countries banding together against it. But what we've also seen, with the exception, I guess, of the U.S. under Donald Trump, but we've seen a gap between rhetoric and actual action against China.

We're starting to see some elements of that in Canada and in other countries. But these are still sort of baby steps. And these are still steps that are being taken by countries that are cognizant of the size and importance of their trading relationships with China. And that has been a constraint to action on a wide range of issues. When you talk about these other steps, on Monday, Canada announced that it would join the US and the European Union in imposing some sanctions on some Chinese officials in Xinjiang. These measures reflect our grave concern with the gross and systematic human rights abuses taking place in the region.

Because of the treatment of the Uyghurs, these are the baby steps you're talking about, right? Yeah, and that's an initial move. What we've seen in the U.S., of course, is something that goes beyond individual Magnitsky-style sanctions to include blanket bans on imports of any cotton products that include cotton from Xinjiang or any products that could include tomatoes from Xinjiang on the belief that some of those products have been produced by forced labor. Of course, the issue is even much more complex than that, because as I and many other people have reported, Xinjiang and China have spent the last couple of years exporting workers from Xinjiang to factories across China. degree to which that work is voluntary. And we've not seen anything that would, for example, target appliances or electronics or other things that may have been the product of factories with weaker workers. The moves that they made so far, though, do you think that they're a signal at all that Canada, the US, other countries are willing to do more here to

present a unified front against China to take more action? Well, we'll see. I mean, there's clearly an ambition to do so. But again, I mean, anything that involves taking serious steps against the Chinese government, steps that might interfere with trade or steps that might produce a reaction from China that interferes with trade. I think every government looks at that very, very seriously because there is a desire to protect economic interests as well. interests as well. Nathan, before we go, you know, I can't help but think that I talked to you a little bit over a year ago now about the two Michaels and the conditions that they were living in. I remember you talking about the lights being kept on 24 hours a day and just, you know, them having a hole in the ground for a toilet.

And what do we know about how they're doing now, if anything, about the conditions that they're in, about what they have been doing to try and cope mentally? Well, as best we know, not much has changed, I suppose, since last we spoke. Not much has changed, I suppose, since last we spoke. They're in formal detention centers. And as best we know, they would have been returned to those formal detention centers in situations, conditions very similar to what we had previously discussed. In terms of lights on, in terms of real restrictions on what they can read, in terms of restrictions on what they can write. Books have been incredibly important to him.

He tries to read as many books as we can essentially get to him, and he wants more all the time. I mean, it's just extraordinary, the restrictions on their lives. And I know Michael Covert's wife, Vina, has talked about, you know, some of the stuff that he does to try and maintain his sanity, like remembering song lyrics. Michael is quite interested in music. He was in a band in his youth. So he often refers to song lyrics and things that he just kind of repeats almost on a daily basis to remain, to be able to control his thoughts and the small ways in which he can

manage his environment. I always think about that whenever I think about this case. Yeah, I mean, it's 833 days. And if he came to court yesterday in a vehicle with windows, in a vehicle with windows, my sense is that might have been one of the only, if not the only times since he was taken by state security agents that Michael Kovrig has seen the outside world. He had gone basically this entire time without so much as seeing a tree. And so in terms of sort of keeping his spirits up, in terms of keeping his sanity, I guess, we've heard from his family that Michael Kovrig has been doing all sorts of things to try to do so in terms of reciting mantras and exercising and all these sorts of things. Okay. Nathan, thank you so much for this. You're welcome. Okay. So before we go today, some good news on the vaccine front. A huge clinical trial in the U.S. has found that the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine is 79% effective in preventing symptomatic cases of COVID-19.

And it prevents all serious cases and deaths. It's the largest study so far for this vaccine with more than 32,000 participants. There will be an application for an EUA, and I can tell you, you can rest assured that the FDA will put a great deal of scrutiny in every aspect of these data. And maybe most crucially, the trial found the vaccine gives strong protection to older people. Earlier, AstraZeneca studies hadn't enrolled a lot of seniors, which is why many countries, including Canada, initially didn't recommend it for people over 65. Canada has since changed that recommendation. That's all for today. Thanks so

much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow.